Engineering Explained discussing the Sapphire

[NoseyReporter]

 

[NoseyReporter]

Skip to around 32 mins and I think The Jason's really really hit the nail on the head. You could cut the rest of the video and the minutes that follow could stand on its own.

 

[BACamster]

Skip to around 32 mins and I think The Jason's really really hit the nail on the head. You could cut the rest of the video and the minutes that follow could stand on its own.

To me Tesla is an energy company and a software company that happened to make cars. I agreed with what both Jason said that Lucid is car engineering company. It shows by how well the car drives regardless of trim level.

 

[DeaneG]

Seems like the vast majority of people have no idea how much better the Air's basic body structure and suspension is than the Model S. They'll allow that the Air may be a more comfortable car, but are highly doubtful of claims that it handles better than the S. Possible because of the Air's luxury styling vs the Model S's more athletic haunches, or just fanboy-ism.

 

[koflo]

Seems like the vast majority of people have no idea how much better the Air's basic body structure and suspension is than the Model S. They'll allow that the Air may be a more comfortable car, but are highly doubtful of claims that it handles better than the S. Possible because of the Air's luxury styling vs the Model S's more athletic haunches, or just fanboy-ism.

I mean almost every news outlet and reviewer has pointed out the car drives better than a model s. People recognizing it isn’t the problem, people don’t care is the problem. If you watched the video or even the snippet that’s what they were getting at. $90k for an electric car that goes fast and has a ton of range? Done. Car people care about how the intricacies. Normal people care about cost, speed, and range.

 

[chinesejpl]

What a great video!

One thing I thought about was their question at the end. Is the sapphire worth 2.5x a plaid? How can tesla make a MS plaid for so cheap? If lucid simply threw a 3rd motor into an air touring and did nothing else, I bet it could be similarly priced (or at least much closer) to the MS plaid and still be better in every way. I think the sapphire is so much more than just a 3 motor air whereas the plaid is simply a base ms with a 3rd motor.

 

[xponents]

Normal people care about cost, speed, and range.

All of which the Air lineup has, you mean?

 

[xponents]

What a great video!

One thing I thought about was their question at the end. Is the sapphire worth 2.5x a plaid? How can tesla make a MS plaid for so cheap? If lucid simply threw a 3rd motor into an air touring and did nothing else, I bet it could be similarly priced (or at least much closer) to the MS plaid and still be better in every way. I think the sapphire is so much more than just a 3 motor air whereas the plaid is simply a base ms with a 3rd motor.

Wait, but the touring is already more than the plaid..

Also, the batteries would have to be changed to a 118 kwh pack as only that can power tri motors. I would start with a Grand Touring, and then add triple motors to that(but then it would cannibalize GT-P sales). This could be oriented as a pure drag car while the sapphire is a track car.

 

[koflo]

All of which the Air lineup has, you mean?

You think the air has cost on its side?

At the end of the day if you have 70k the model s LR is cheaper, quicker and has similar range to the equivalent entry level lucid. Not to mention huge brand recognition and a reliable charging network with stellar infotainment. If you do the same exercise at 90k then you get one of the fastest cars in the market, pretty solid range, and cheaper than the true lucid competitor (even harder if you look at used prices on plaids right now. $70k for a used plaid is insane value). Not to mention again the reliable charging network, brand recognition, etc… Now we can do that same exercise for model 3 and Y and it gets worse for lucid in the eyes of the average consumer.

The things that set lucid apart from the competition are things that car enthusiasts enjoy. Not what the normal person cares about. This video talks about that extensively. The question of value comes into play and that’s where the “is this 2.5x better than a plaid” comes from.

If you are a car enthusiast though the answer is probably a yes if you aren’t then that answer is probably no.

 

[xponents]

You think the air has cost on its side?

At the end of the day if you have 70k the model s LR is cheaper, quicker and has similar range to the equivalent entry level lucid. Not to mention huge brand recognition and a reliable charging network with stellar infotainment. If you do the same exercise at 90k then you get one of the fastest cars in the market, pretty solid range, and cheaper than the true lucid competitor (even harder if you look at used prices on plaids right now. $70k for a used plaid is insane value). Not to mention again the reliable charging network, brand recognition, etc… Now we can do that same exercise for model 3 and Y and it gets worse for lucid in the eyes of the average consumer.

The things that set lucid apart from the competition are things that car enthusiasts enjoy. Not what the normal person cares about. This video talks about that extensively. The question of value comes into play and that’s where the “is this 2.5x better than a plaid” comes from.

If you are a car enthusiast though the answer is probably a yes if you aren’t then that answer is probably no.

1. Quicker doesnt mean numbers. The Lucid objectively handles better and more of its power is usable.
2. Cheaper again doesnt really matter, the Lucid is 78900 while the model s is 76630(destination isnt included by tesla). In addition, the Lucid has more technology in driver assists(lidar vs 15k for software) while its even CHEAPER with the pro credit and Air credit. Range is barely better, thats a fact. However, efficiency is markedly better in the Air and so is rear legroom(which is important for a lot of families, like mine)
3. Charging network I agree. And brand recognition I don't, especially considering that Lucids service gives lots of things for free and reminds me of Apple stores. In addition, the Air gets stares everywhere, while the model s is a Camry Limited edition in terms of commonality.

 

[NoseyReporter]

I felt really connected to the Jasons discussing how Lucid prioritizes engineering first. More importantly the acknowledgement that engineering first doesn't always work in the real world, and that there is a necessity for Lucid to build a car that the avg person will appreciate.

When Jason shared how he begged engineers to stop being engineers so that they could make a car that would financially float the company, I shed a tear. I can rest knowing someone was able to at least get the message to Lucid. It makes me feel like they know.

I've always said I love the fact that Lucid prioritizes engineering. I've always secretly feared it would be their potential demise. But knowing that they are aware of this gives me a lot of hope.

 

[xponents]

I felt really connected to the Jasons discussing how Lucid prioritizes engineering first. More importantly the acknowledgement that engineering first doesn't always work in the real world, and that there is a necessity for Lucid to build a car that the avg person will appreciate.

When Jason shared how he begged engineers to stop being engineers so that they could make a car that would financially float the company, I shed a tear. I can rest knowing someone was able to at least get the message to Lucid. It makes me feel like they know.

I've always said I love the fact that Lucid prioritizes engineering. I've always secretly feared it would be their potential demise. But knowing that they are aware of this gives me a lot of hope.

It's a catch-22 situation, which is tragic to me. For example, if Gravity has sliding doors, its engineering good but not marketing good... Lucid is stuck in an awkward spot. Tragic.

 

[NoseyReporter]

It's a catch-22 situation, which is tragic to me. For example, if Gravity has sliding doors, its engineering good but not marketing good... Lucid is stuck in an awkward spot. Tragic.

I am thankful for all current owners, who can truly appreciate Lucid and the people who design them.

But yes, if Gravity doesn't do well, it will be very difficult for Lucid. And I've said it countless times, there is too much rhetoric around how Gravity will be successful just because it is a SUV. Lucid is very lucky to have backers with deep pockets.

 

[koflo]

1. Quicker doesnt mean numbers. The Lucid objectively handles better and more of its power is usable.
2. Cheaper again doesnt really matter, the Lucid is 78900 while the model s is 76630(destination isnt included by tesla). In addition, the Lucid has more technology in driver assists(lidar vs 15k for software) while its even CHEAPER with the pro credit and Air credit. Range is barely better, thats a fact. However, efficiency is markedly better in the Air and so is rear legroom(which is important for a lot of families, like mine)
3. Charging network I agree. And brand recognition I don't, especially considering that Lucids service gives lots of things for free and reminds me of Apple stores. In addition, the Air gets stares everywhere, while the model s is a Camry Limited edition in terms of commonality.

How many average people do you know that buy cars off how they handle? Its again one of those things that car people care about but the average person doesn't. In fact, they probably wont even know the difference if they drove them side by side. Highly disagree with usable power until you get to the plaid vs GTP levels. You get plenty power from MS LR and too much in the Plaid especially for normal street driving. If you put the cars on a track, I am pretty confident that you would need a GTP at the least to beat the Plaid and again we are talking a niche use case with a $25k price tag difference.

Model S is $74,999 btw. Lucid may have the physical technology there but we both now in practice Tesla's autopilot is miles better at this point. Do you think the average consumer cares about lidar if the feature is worse? Not to mention, autopilot is free, FSD is 15k but comparing FSD to DDP is a TERRIBLE showing for Lucid.

How many people know who Lucid is? How many people know what a Tesla is? Brand recognition is as simple as that.

 

[hydbob]

How many average people do you know that buy cars off how they handle? Its again one of those things that car people care about but the average person doesn't. In fact, they probably wont even know the difference if they drove them side by side. Highly disagree with usable power until you get to the plaid vs GTP levels. You get plenty power from MS LR and too much in the Plaid especially for normal street driving. If you put the cars on a track, I am pretty confident that you would need a GTP at the least to beat the Plaid and again we are talking a niche use case with a $25k price tag difference.

Model S is $74,999 btw. Lucid may have the physical technology there but we both now in practice Tesla's autopilot is miles better at this point. Do you think the average consumer cares about lidar if the feature is worse? Not to mention, autopilot is free, FSD is 15k but comparing FSD to DDP is a TERRIBLE showing for Lucid.

How many people know who Lucid is? How many people know what a Tesla is? Brand recognition is as simple as that.

I'll push back on this, driving the 2 cars back to back will most assuredly make the differences between the two very apparent.

 

[BACamster]

How many average people do you know that buy cars off how they handle? Its again one of those things that car people care about but the average person doesn't. In fact, they probably wont even know the difference if they drove them side by side. Highly disagree with usable power until you get to the plaid vs GTP levels. You get plenty power from MS LR and too much in the Plaid especially for normal street driving. If you put the cars on a track, I am pretty confident that you would need a GTP at the least to beat the Plaid and again we are talking a niche use case with a $25k price tag difference.

Model S is $74,999 btw. Lucid may have the physical technology there but we both now in practice Tesla's autopilot is miles better at this point. Do you think the average consumer cares about lidar if the feature is worse? Not to mention, autopilot is free, FSD is 15k but comparing FSD to DDP is a TERRIBLE showing for Lucid.

How many people know who Lucid is? How many people know what a Tesla is? Brand recognition is as simple as that.

A car is a personal preference and a matter of value. If you value Tesla as a brand over Lucid, go purchase a Tesla. Some value engineering over marketing and that was the point both Jason made in the video.

 

[Bill55]

The DE performance even with 1111 hp can not beat the Plaid.
Could Lucid put a dual motor in the back of an Air Grand touring and beat the Plaid. Yes.

I‘m so glad they did it right. The Sapphire is the “M” version. It is just as much or more better than an Air GT as an M5 comp is over a 550i.

All these cars are great.

A Honda Accord is a great 90% car.

Once you get to 90% every percent above has a significant cost.
Once you get to 99% every tenth has a significant cost.
Once you get to 99.9% every hundredth has a significant cost.

The plaid is a 96% car. The Sapphire is a 99.9x% car.

 

[borski]

The DE performance even with 1111 hp can not beat the Plaid.
Could Lucid put a dual motor in the back of an Air Grand touring and beat the Plaid. Yes.

I‘m so glad they did it right. The Sapphire is the “M” version. It is just as much or more better than an Air GT as an M5 comp is over a 550i.

All these cars are great.

A Honda Accord is a great 90% car.

Once you get to 90% every percent above has a significant cost.
Once you get to 99% every tenth has a significant cost.
Once you get to 99.9% every hundredth has a significant cost.

The plaid is a 96% car. The Sapphire is a 99.9x% car.

Well put. I know we've had our squabbles occasionally, but that was extremely well put.

 

[Rob Stark]

And I've said it countless times, there is too much rhetoric around how Gravity will be successful just because it is a SUV.

Gravity will sell at least 2x Air. Because it is an SUV. Because that is what every other SUV does relative to the sedan that is based on does. If the automaker decides to make a sedan on the same platform.

If Lucid was asking a $10k premium for Sapphire over GTP then it would be telling the potential consumer we just slapped another motor back there. Every bit more car requires ever increasing delta on price.

 

[xponents]

If Lucid was asking a $10k premium for Sapphire over GTP then it would be telling the potential consumer we just slapped another motor back there. Every bit more car requires ever increasing delta on price.

But they didn’t just do a motor swap like the plaid, it had bespoke parts and immense engineering put into it.