7500 EV tax credit update with new bill

[noobzilla]

Ha ha ha.

That is me being a sarcastic smartass.

Obviously, Tesla didn't ask Schumer and Manchin to exclude Model 3, Model S , and Model X from the Federal subsidy.

I was gonna say that makes sense so Tesla can focus on Y and scale better lol

 

[joec]

Ha ha ha.

That is me being a sarcastic smartass.

Obviously, Tesla didn't ask Schumer and Manchin to exclude Model 3, Model S , and Model X from the Federal subsidy.

I agree, I don’t think Tesla‘s lobbying efforts were the main factor here. But they’re still better off with this bill than without.

 

[Rob Stark]

The model Y will outsell all of GMs EVs models combined, regardless. And base model 3 comes in under 55k. Not that many buy that. Lucid is the biggest loser here, by far.

Base Model 3 loses subsidy because it has a Chinese battery pack. I am 100% it has Chinese CATL cells and I am 95% certain the pack is made in China at Gigafactory Shanghai and shipped to US. Changing this to domestic supply would significantly increase cost. These CATL cells are not cylindrical.

GM will have battery capacity to sell 1M BEVs per year in North America by 2025. I am fairly certain that over the 10 year period this proposed legislation is in place GM BEVs will outsell Model Y in the USA with Equinox EV, Blazer EV, Silverado EV, Hummer EV, Lyriq EV, Escalade EV and whatever else GM comes out with like 4 door Camaro EV and Tahoe EV.

 

[Drendino]

Where is your outrage over $5 trillion in oil/gas subsides in the last 10 years? Whenever the EV sector gets any kind of well deserved investment, you can always count on an oil baron to knock it down.

Edit: global subsidies around that amount, not just US

By oil baron, I assume you mean the democrats who are sponsoring this bill and are essentially wiping away the federal tax credit on most EVs? The republicans are opposed to it, so just want to make sure we give credit where blame is due.

 

[Ksa23]

By oil baron, I assume you mean the democrats who are sponsoring this bill and are essentially wiping away the federal tax credit on most EVs? The republicans are opposed to it, so just want to make sure we give credit where blame is due.

Who is wiping away the credit for most EV's? They're being expanded with the limits per manufacturer removed. Only limit now is income, and any of us making over $150k (new income limit) are fortunate enough to not need government assistance.

 

[Rob Stark]

Who is wiping away the credit for most EV's? They're being expanded with the limits per manufacturer removed. Only limit now is income, and any of us making over $150k (new income limit) are fortunate enough to not need government assistance.

Democrats are wiping out credits for Korean made BEVs like Ioniq 5, EV6, GV60, G80e.

German made BEVs like EQS,EQE, i4,i7, etron of various flavors, Taycans, ID Buzz.

Japanese made BEVs like Ariya, BZ4x, Solera.

Austrian made BEVs like Jaguar I Pace and Fisker Ocean

Belgian made BEVs Volvo C40 and XC40 Recharge.

British made BEVs like Range Rover EV and future Jags. Jaguar is planning to go all electric by 2025.

Chinese made BEVs like Polestar 2, Lotus Eletre and potentially dozens of models available in Europe.

American made Lucid Air, most sales of Rivian R1T and R1S.

Some versions of the Mach-e and planned versions of F-150 Lightning.

This new Bill wipes away the $7500 credit if the BEV is not made in US, Canada, or Mexico.

If 40% of the minerals for cells are not extracted, processed and made in US, Canada ,Mexico, South Korea, Chile, or Australia then $3750 gets wiped away. As the years go by the percentage requirement rises. There are a few other countries that qualify but realistically can't mine or process minerals or have the necessities to draw a battery pack manufacturing facility.

If non-cell parts for the battery pack are not manufactured in the USA, Canada, or Mexico, or the battery pack is not assembled in the USA, Canada or Mexico then $3750 of the credit gets wiped away.

BTW I guess if this bill passes VW will try to ramp up ID.4 production ASAP at Tennessee and no longer import German made ID.4s next year.

 

[Drendino]

Democrats are wiping out credits for Korean made BEVs like Ioniq 5, EV6, GV60, G80e.

German made BEVs like EQS,EQE, i4,i7, etron of various flavors, Taycans, ID Buzz.

Japanese made BEVs like Ariya, BZ4x, Solera.

Austrian made BEVs like Jaguar I Pace and Fisker Ocean

Belgian made BEVs Volvo C40 and XC40 Recharge.

British made BEVs like Range Rover EV and future Jags. Jaguar is planning to go all electric by 2025.

Chinese made BEVs like Polestar 2, Lotus Eletre and potentially dozens of models available in Europe.

American made Lucid Air, most sales of Rivian R1T and R1S.

Some versions of the Mach-e and planned versions of F-150 Lightning.

This new Bill wipes away the $7500 credit if the BEV is not made in US, Canada, or Mexico.

If 40% of the minerals for cells are not extracted, processed and made in US, Canada ,Mexico, South Korea, Chile, or Australia then $3750 gets wiped away. As the years go by the percentage requirement rises. There are a few other countries that qualify but realistically can't mine or process minerals or have the necessities to draw a battery pack manufacturing facility.

If non-cell parts for the battery pack are not manufactured in the USA, Canada, or Mexico, or the battery pack is not assembled in the USA, Canada or Mexico then $3750 of the credit gets wiped away.

BTW I guess if this bill passes VW will try to ramp up ID.4 production ASAP at Tennessee and no longer import German made ID.4s next year.

This is very well said. Last I checked, emissions were a global problem and getting as many ICE cars replaced with electric cars was going to “save the planet”. I put that in quotes because we all known that the making and disposal of batteries creates a new problem, but for emission sake, it’s good for the environment to have as many electric cars on the road, everywhere in the world. I thought this was the North Star for the people proposing this bill, but clearly it’s not.

These genius lawmakers are going under the assumption that the people they consider wealthy will buy electric cars anyways, because it is the right thing to do. Some like many of us will, but many more won’t because of the price of entry. Most people will continue to put their own financial interest first and buy ICE cars, especially at a time when we have crippling inflation and shrinking retirement accounts.

So no, this isn’t “oil barons” trying to kill the electric car. It is the party who has control over everything trying to set us back 10 years.

 

[LCIDdreams]

Biggest lobbying was Telsa (for model Y), Ford (running low on credits), GM (out of credits) and Toyota (for hybrids and electrics since they were running out of credits.). I can see the price limits (voters get annoyed at their taxes subsidizing expensive vehicles) and the income limits (ditto the voters perceptions). I can't see giving more price leeway based on vehicle type (SUV or Sedan) nor as large a rebate for hybrids. But if the hybrids have a high enough minimum required all electric range, it may move a good number of miles to all electric. It will also allow households who are overly range concerned to try an electric vehicle without the range anxiiety.

According to the Reddit-sourced chart Toyota currently has zero hybrids and EVs that would qualify under this bill, so if they are one of the biggest lobbyists that didn’t do a very good job.

 

[joec]

Base Model 3 loses subsidy because it has a Chinese battery pack. I am 100% it has Chinese CATL cells and I am 95% certain the pack is made in China at Gigafactory Shanghai and shipped to US. Changing this to domestic supply would significantly increase cost. These CATL cells are not cylindrical.

GM will have battery capacity to sell 1M BEVs per year in North America by 2025. I am fairly certain that over the 10 year period this proposed legislation is in place GM BEVs will outsell Model Y in the USA with Equinox EV, Blazer EV, Silverado EV, Hummer EV, Lyriq EV, Escalade EV and whatever else GM comes out with like 4 door Camaro EV and Tahoe EV.

I forgot about the Chinese battery pack. You are right. There's no way Tesla will change that just to get this subsidy. So it's just the Y.

 

[joec]

Democrats are wiping out credits for Korean made BEVs like Ioniq 5, EV6, GV60, G80e.

German made BEVs like EQS,EQE, i4,i7, etron of various flavors, Taycans, ID Buzz.

Japanese made BEVs like Ariya, BZ4x, Solera.

Austrian made BEVs like Jaguar I Pace and Fisker Ocean

Belgian made BEVs Volvo C40 and XC40 Recharge.

British made BEVs like Range Rover EV and future Jags. Jaguar is planning to go all electric by 2025.

Chinese made BEVs like Polestar 2, Lotus Eletre and potentially dozens of models available in Europe.

American made Lucid Air, most sales of Rivian R1T and R1S.

Some versions of the Mach-e and planned versions of F-150 Lightning.

This new Bill wipes away the $7500 credit if the BEV is not made in US, Canada, or Mexico.

If 40% of the minerals for cells are not extracted, processed and made in US, Canada ,Mexico, South Korea, Chile, or Australia then $3750 gets wiped away. As the years go by the percentage requirement rises. There are a few other countries that qualify but realistically can't mine or process minerals or have the necessities to draw a battery pack manufacturing facility.

If non-cell parts for the battery pack are not manufactured in the USA, Canada, or Mexico, or the battery pack is not assembled in the USA, Canada or Mexico then $3750 of the credit gets wiped away.

BTW I guess if this bill passes VW will try to ramp up ID.4 production ASAP at Tennessee and no longer import German made ID.4s next year.

This is very well said. Last I checked, emissions were a global problem and getting as many ICE cars replaced with electric cars was going to “save the planet”. I put that in quotes because we all known that the making and disposal of batteries creates a new problem, but for emission sake, it’s good for the environment to have as many electric cars on the road, everywhere in the world. I thought this was the North Star for the people proposing this bill, but clearly it’s not.

These genius lawmakers are going under the assumption that the people they consider wealthy will buy electric cars anyways, because it is the right thing to do. Some like many of us will, but many more won’t because of the price of entry. Most people will continue to put their own financial interest first and buy ICE cars, especially at a time when we have crippling inflation and shrinking retirement accounts.

So no, this isn’t “oil barons” trying to kill the electric car. It is the party who has control over everything trying to set us back 10 years.

I've said all along the changes to the EV tax breaks in this bill are not a good thing. And yeah, the Democrats are hugely in the pocket of the big auto makers in the US. That's no secret.

There are lots of other, much better things for the environment in this bill. The EV stuff is a small part of what they're trying to pass here, and my suspicion is the EV changes are only there to ensure passage. But in an ideal world these changes would go away, or be amended to include all EVs, period.

It's true someone like me, who is already on board with EVs, does not need an incentive. Heck, I didn't get one with my Tesla, because they had already sold too many cars at that point.

I will never go back to ICE. But there are tons of well-off people who are still buying ICE cars, and any incentive you can give is a good thing, regardless of where the car is built, where the battery comes from, etc. We should be making it less attractive to buy a gasoline car. In any way we can. It's typical of Democratic thinking to just take for granted wealthy people who care about the environment will just "do the right thing."

And also typical, unfortunately, for them to be dumb enough to take away a tax break for largely suburban voters in a critical election year.

But we're not going to pretend the Republicans have been all-stars of environmental policy while they've been in power, are we? EPA cuts, increased oil and fracking—heck, every candidate for President they ran in 2016 was a climate change denier.

We were set back much further than ten years just a few years ago.

I also don't see any bills being proposed by Republicans that are any better for EV incentives. Do they have any bills that focus on the environment at all? They seem to be too busy voting against sick veterans.

So yeah, this bill has some giveaways to the folks who put the Democrats in power. And that sucks. That's how our system works. If we want to change that, we have to overturn Citizens United. But that's not going to happen, because of which Supreme Court Justices? I forget.

Our system is fundamentally dysfunctional. But given the rest of what's in this bill, I'll take it over nothing.

And anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's see if the whole thing ends up falling apart when Kyrsten Sinema refuses to vote for it.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Tesla asked its lobbyist to write legislation to exclude 3 of the 4 models it currently sells.

Tesla wasn’t suppose to have any anyway bc 200,000 units quota ran out. So after $1.5 billion tax credit later, Tesla still gets more for its buyers is what I meant.

 

[Drendino]

I've said all along the changes to the EV tax breaks in this bill are not a good thing. And yeah, the Democrats are hugely in the pocket of the big auto makers in the US. That's no secret.

There are lots of other, much better things for the environment in this bill. The EV stuff is a small part of what they're trying to pass here, and my suspicion is the EV changes are only there to ensure passage. But in an ideal world these changes would go away, or be amended to include all EVs, period.

It's true someone like me, who is already on board with EVs, does not need an incentive. Heck, I didn't get one with my Tesla, because they had already sold too many cars at that point.

I will never go back to ICE. But there are tons of well-off people who are still buying ICE cars, and any incentive you can give is a good thing, regardless of where the car is built, where the battery comes from, etc. We should be making it less attractive to buy a gasoline car. In any way we can. It's typical of Democratic thinking to just take for granted wealthy people who care about the environment will just "do the right thing."

And also typical, unfortunately, for them to be dumb enough to take away a tax break for largely suburban voters in a critical election year.

But we're not going to pretend the Republicans have been all-stars of environmental policy while they've been in power, are we? EPA cuts, increased oil and fracking—heck, every candidate for President they ran in 2016 was a climate change denier.

We were set back much further than ten years just a few years ago.

I also don't see any bills being proposed by Republicans that are any better for EV incentives. Do they have any bills that focus on the environment at all? They seem to be too busy voting against sick veterans.

So yeah, this bill has some giveaways to the folks who put the Democrats in power. And that sucks. That's how our system works. If we want to change that, we have to overturn Citizens United. But that's not going to happen, because of which Supreme Court Justices? I forget.

Our system is fundamentally dysfunctional. But given the rest of what's in this bill, I'll take it over nothing.

And anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's see if the whole thing ends up falling apart when Kyrsten Sinema refuses to vote for it.

Oh no, I’m sure that Republicans would remove all tax credits if they were in power. I’m just stating the obvious of who is doing the damage this time. We can agree to disagree on the effect of tax credits on buyer’s decisions to purchase EVs. I think it is a meaningful takeaway and a net loss for the cause. Time will tell.

 

[njg-agt]

By oil baron, I assume you mean the democrats who are sponsoring this bill and are essentially wiping away the federal tax credit on most EVs? The republicans are opposed to it, so just want to make sure we give credit where blame is due.

By oil baron it would be "Joe Manchin", as this is not the bill that the Democrats first put forward (which increased credits without these limiting factors and without the gifts to the oil cartel). No, this is simply the bill that JoeM would support is all, and without that support (because all the GOP simply vote "no" for anything put forth by Democrats) the entire thing is dead.

 

[LCIDdreams]

Democrats are wiping out credits for Korean made BEVs like Ioniq 5, EV6, GV60, G80e.

German made BEVs like EQS,EQE, i4,i7, etron of various flavors, Taycans, ID Buzz.

Japanese made BEVs like Ariya, BZ4x, Solera.

Austrian made BEVs like Jaguar I Pace and Fisker Ocean

Belgian made BEVs Volvo C40 and XC40 Recharge.

British made BEVs like Range Rover EV and future Jags. Jaguar is planning to go all electric by 2025.

Chinese made BEVs like Polestar 2, Lotus Eletre and potentially dozens of models available in Europe.

American made Lucid Air, most sales of Rivian R1T and R1S.

Some versions of the Mach-e and planned versions of F-150 Lightning.

This new Bill wipes away the $7500 credit if the BEV is not made in US, Canada, or Mexico.

If 40% of the minerals for cells are not extracted, processed and made in US, Canada ,Mexico, South Korea, Chile, or Australia then $3750 gets wiped away. As the years go by the percentage requirement rises. There are a few other countries that qualify but realistically can't mine or process minerals or have the necessities to draw a battery pack manufacturing facility.

If non-cell parts for the battery pack are not manufactured in the USA, Canada, or Mexico, or the battery pack is not assembled in the USA, Canada or Mexico then $3750 of the credit gets wiped away.

BTW I guess if this bill passes VW will try to ramp up ID.4 production ASAP at Tennessee and no longer import German made ID.4s next year.

Didn’t occur to me before but GMs announcement of securing a $2.5M taxpayer loan to build a new battery factory located in the US came out just a couple days before the bill was released.

 

[LCIDdreams]

the Rivian truck would be my next choice but turns out I don’t qualify for other criteria

Rivian has noted that they don’t expect to be producing any R1S or R1T trims under $80k until 2025.

Rivian (RIVN) is not happy to be left out of new EV tax credit — Electrek

Rivian (RIVN) commented on the new EV federal tax that is expected to be adopted, and the American automaker said that it is not happy to be left out of the new incentive.

apple.news

 

[Tesla2.0]

Rivian has noted that they don’t expect to be producing any R1S or R1T trims under $80k until 2025.

Rivian (RIVN) is not happy to be left out of new EV tax credit — Electrek

Rivian (RIVN) commented on the new EV federal tax that is expected to be adopted, and the American automaker said that it is not happy to be left out of the new incentive.

apple.news

I KNEW IT!!!!

REFUND!!!! J/K

 

[LCIDdreams]

I KNEW IT!!!!

REFUND!!!! J/K

Reporting might not be accurate- I swear that Rivian said in their last earnings call they would start producing the lowest trim R1S & R1T late 2023 (which in theory should be under the $80k if not loaded with options), and that they will be introducing a smaller lower cost model in 2025.

 

[n8236]

Who is wiping away the credit for most EV's? They're being expanded with the limits per manufacturer removed. Only limit now is income, and any of us making over $150k (new income limit) are fortunate enough to not need government assistance.

i agree with your first statement but not the second. This bill is absolutely lopsided and uneven 6 ways to Sunday.

 

[DJL]

i agree with your first statement but not the second. This bill is absolutely lopsided and uneven 6 ways to Sunday.

The bill is meant to encourage, amungst other things, the middle and lower income groups to move into the EV era and to encourage automakers to build in the US and to encourage the battery industry to build and use US and trade partern materials. It was designed to cause a major shift in these areas to expand their manufacturing of more affordabel BEVs and parts here in the US. For those of you politically into the "US FIrst" way of thinking, it is right up your alley. For those of you who wish to shrink the deficent, it is right up your alley, For those of you who wish to see lower drug prices, it is right up your alley. For those of you who wish to see corporations pay a bit more taxes, it is right up your alley. For those of you who wish to see the IRS be in a better position to catch tax cheaters, this is right up your alley. For those of you who wish to support climate change initiatives, it is right up your alley. For those of you who wish to still offer Big Oil some incentives, this is right up your alley. Lucid loses big time with this bill because they chose to target those fortunate to be able to afford $80+K BEVs as their initial market strategy. This bill, if passed, will encourage Lucid and others to move quicker toward building vehicles that middle income folks can afford. It really has something for both sides of the aisle and if we did not live in such a polarized and distructive political envirnment, it would have supportors of both major parties. It is not perfect, no major piece of legislation is, but it does have some signficant programs that benefit a broad swath of Americans and companies.

 

[GEWC]

If there is one thing I have seen hold back wealthy buyers from EVs, it is the lack of luxury EVs, so it is a good thing there are actually options now.