20-ish mile range difference between 5 seat and 7 seat Gravity?

[Elfin]

As (bad) luck would have it, we picked up a nail in the sidewall of our front left Odyssey tire yesterday. So I'm taking the opportunity to try the Vredestein Quatrac Pro+ tires on it. Should get the car on the road early next week. We're in a dry spell, but I'll report how they seem after some rain.

There are so many differences in the Odyssey and the Gravity that I don't know how transferrable the impressions would be, but it'll at least be a few data points.

I just got the Quatracs for my Model 3. Much better traction in the snow than the stock Michelin MXM4 but efficiency seems worse and might not be much better than the Michelin PS4S I have on my wider non-aero summer wheels.

 

[hmp10]

I just found something interesting. Lucid uses Pirelli P Zero tires on the 22/23" wheel sizes of the Gravity, and Pirelli has a new line of tires engineered for EVs called the "Elect" line which includes the Pirelli P Zero PZ4. They tout extended range as one of its advantages. However, the new Pirelli Elect tire is not available in the 23" size for the Gravity. So, apparently, Lucid is not putting an EV-specific tire on the largest Gravity wheels as they did on the Air.

This is from the Pirelli website:

However, Pirelli does make an Elect tire that will fit the 22" wheel . . . but it has a V speed rating instead of the Y rating of the P Zero tire Lucid uses.

The Elect is a new tire line for Pirelli, and historically Pirelli expands the size ranges of its new tires over time. So I wonder if the 386-mile EPA for the Gravity could be increased when and if the P Zero Elects become available in the 23" size.

Interestingly, Pirelli does make the P Zero Elect series in both sizes for the 21/22" Gravity wheels, but Lucid chose to put non-EV Michelin A/S touring tires on those wheels.

 

[borski]

I just found something interesting. Lucid uses Pirelli P Zero tires on the 22/23" wheel sizes of the Gravity, and Pirelli has a new line of tires engineered for EVs called the "Elect" line which includes the Pirelli P Zero PZ4. They tout extended range as one of its advantages. However, the new Pirelli Elect tire is not available in the 23" size for the Gravity. So, apparently, Lucid is not putting an EV-specific tire on the largest Gravity wheels as they did on the Air.

This is from the Pirelli website:
View attachment 25482

However, Pirelli does make an Elect tire that will fit the 22" wheel . . . but it has a V speed rating instead of the Y rating of the P Zero tire Lucid uses.

View attachment 25483

The Elect is a new tire line for Pirelli, and historically Pirelli expands the size ranges of its new tires over time. So I wonder if the 386-mile EPA for the Gravity could be increased when and if the P Zero Elects become available in the 23" size.

Interestingly, Pirelli does make the P Zero Elect series in both sizes for the 21/22" Gravity wheels, but Lucid chose to put non-EV Michelin A/S touring tires on those wheels.

The elect is not a new tire. My Air has Pirelli P Zero, and they have the Elect branding.

These are the OEM 21s on the Air: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...toModel=Air&autoModClar=245/35-21F 265/35-21R

You may note:

 

[Knucklehead]

So, apparently, Lucid is not putting an EV-specific tire on the largest Gravity wheels as they did on the Air.

Based on the image of the tires in the configurator, the largest wheels have the Elect tires.

 

[hmp10]

The elect is not a new tire. My Air has Pirelli P Zero, and they have the Elect branding.

Yes, my Air also has Pirelli P Zeros with the Elect (and LM1) branding. But Pirelli now shows several versions of the P Zero on its website, and the tires in its ELECT series are now labeled "New" on their website, perhaps suggesting there has been an update to the tire. The Pirellis on our Airs also had a new "HL" load rating, supposedly developed to handle the greater weight of EVs. As near as I can tell, the "HL" load rating has since disappeared from all the EV tire brands, and they have all now reverted to the original highest load rating for passenger cars -- "XL". I have been unable to find any explanation for that.

Based on the image of the tires in the configurator, the largest wheels have the Elect tires.

That is a photo of the front wheel, as indicated by the orange reflector which is only on the front of the Gravity. The Pirelli website shows a fitment of the ELECT tire for the front wheel (265/40R22) of the Gravity, but NOT for the rear wheel (285/35ZR23). Note also that the 22" tire has PNCS (noise cancelling foam), but the 23" size does not, and the front tire is only "V" speed rated while the rear is "Y" speed rated.

For the rear wheel size the Pirelli website also specifically says "There are currently no ELECT tyres available for your vehicle", although Lucid is listed on the website as one of the brands for which Pirelli makes specific tires.

So, there are several possibilities here:

1. The Pirelli website is incorrect about which of its tires are available in which sizes and is touting as "New" a line of tires that has been on the market for several years.

2. Lucid has used an ELECT tire on the front 22" wheel (thus in the photo) but a non-ELECT tire on the rear 23" wheel of the Gravity. (Pirelli does show five P Zero summer tires in the 23" size, 2 with PNCS and 3 without -- but nothing in the ELECT series.)

3. Lucid is running an ELECT prototype size on the rear 23" wheel that Pirelli is not yet selling to the public.

4. We're all wrong about everything.


Assuming the Pirelli website is correct, the only way right now to be sure you can put Pirelli EV-specific summer tires (with their lower rolling resistance and greater range) on the Gravity is to order the mid-size wheels (which, unfortunately, I think are the ugliest).

 

[borski]

Yes, my Air also has Pirelli P Zeros with the Elect (and LM1) branding. But Pirelli now shows several versions of the P Zero on its website, and the tires in its ELECT series are now labeled "New" on their website, perhaps suggesting there has been an update to the tire. The Pirellis on our Airs also had a new "HL" load rating, supposedly developed to handle the greater weight of EVs. As near as I can tell, the "HL" load rating has since disappeared from all the EV tire brands, and they have all now reverted to the original highest load rating for passenger cars -- "XL". I have been unable to find any explanation for that.

View attachment 25493





That is a photo of the front wheel, as indicated by the orange reflector which is only on the front of the Gravity. The Pirelli website shows a fitment of the ELECT tire for the front wheel (265/40R22) of the Gravity, but NOT for the rear wheel (285/35ZR23). Note also that the 22" tire has PNCS (noise cancelling foam), but the 23" size does not, and the front tire is only "V" speed rated while the rear is "Y" speed rated.

View attachment 25494

For the rear wheel size the Pirelli website also specifically says "There are currently no ELECT tyres available for your vehicle", although Lucid is listed on the website as one of the brands for which Pirelli makes specific tires.

View attachment 25495



So, there are several possibilities here:

1. The Pirelli website is incorrect about which of its tires are available in which sizes and is touting as "New" a line of tires that has been on the market for several years.

2. Lucid has used an ELECT tire on the front 22" wheel (thus in the photo) but a non-ELECT tire on the rear 23" wheel of the Gravity. (Pirelli does show five P Zero summer tires in the 23" size, 2 with PNCS and 3 without -- but nothing in the ELECT series.)

3. Lucid is running an ELECT prototype size on the rear 23" wheel that Pirelli is not yet selling to the public.

4. We're all wrong about everything.


Assuming the Pirelli website is correct, the only way right now to be sure you can put Pirelli EV-specific summer tires (with their lower rolling resistance and greater range) on the Gravity is to order the mid-size wheels (which, unfortunately, I think are the ugliest).

It would be impossible to cheat on you. Have you seen Man On the Inside? I feel like you’d enjoy it a lot.

 

[hmp10]

It would be impossible to cheat on you. Have you seen Man On the Inside? I feel like you’d enjoy it a lot.

Sure have. We old folks are actually pretty easy to figure out, though.

 

[hmp10]

Seriously, though . . .

Is it possible that Lucid is actually putting an EV-specific tire on the front wheel of the largest wheel option but not on the rear wheel? I guess I can't see any real technical impediment to doing that as the front and rear drive trains are largely independent, but it would seem odd.

I'm trying hard to figure out if there is some way to get the range numbers up on the Gravity without accepting the wet-handling compromises of the Hankooks, which seems to be what Lucid was really chasing with the Hankook choice. But it would require a lot more information about airflow and, to a lesser extent, weight and mass distribution of the different wheel designs.

 

[momo3605]

Yes, my Air also has Pirelli P Zeros with the Elect (and LM1) branding. But Pirelli now shows several versions of the P Zero on its website, and the tires in its ELECT series are now labeled "New" on their website, perhaps suggesting there has been an update to the tire. The Pirellis on our Airs also had a new "HL" load rating, supposedly developed to handle the greater weight of EVs. As near as I can tell, the "HL" load rating has since disappeared from all the EV tire brands, and they have all now reverted to the original highest load rating for passenger cars -- "XL". I have been unable to find any explanation for that.

View attachment 25493





That is a photo of the front wheel, as indicated by the orange reflector which is only on the front of the Gravity. The Pirelli website shows a fitment of the ELECT tire for the front wheel (265/40R22) of the Gravity, but NOT for the rear wheel (285/35ZR23). Note also that the 22" tire has PNCS (noise cancelling foam), but the 23" size does not, and the front tire is only "V" speed rated while the rear is "Y" speed rated.

View attachment 25494

For the rear wheel size the Pirelli website also specifically says "There are currently no ELECT tyres available for your vehicle", although Lucid is listed on the website as one of the brands for which Pirelli makes specific tires.

View attachment 25495



So, there are several possibilities here:

1. The Pirelli website is incorrect about which of its tires are available in which sizes and is touting as "New" a line of tires that has been on the market for several years.

2. Lucid has used an ELECT tire on the front 22" wheel (thus in the photo) but a non-ELECT tire on the rear 23" wheel of the Gravity. (Pirelli does show five P Zero summer tires in the 23" size, 2 with PNCS and 3 without -- but nothing in the ELECT series.)

3. Lucid is running an ELECT prototype size on the rear 23" wheel that Pirelli is not yet selling to the public.

4. We're all wrong about everything.


Assuming the Pirelli website is correct, the only way right now to be sure you can put Pirelli EV-specific summer tires (with their lower rolling resistance and greater range) on the Gravity is to order the mid-size wheels (which, unfortunately, I think are the ugliest).

5. You’re definitely overthinking this. Just get the small wheels/tires and enjoy 450 miles of epa rated range

 

[hmp10]

5. You’re definitely overthinking this. Just get the small wheels/tires and enjoy 450 miles of epa rated range

I do a lot of driving in heavy rain and don't drive in cold climes. The Hankooks have abysmal wet braking and and wet cornering numbers. And, unfortunately, there are no summer-rated tires available in both the staggered width and staggered diameter of the smallest wheel set.

By choosing to go with staggered wheel diameters on the Gravity -- something they did primarily for cosmetic reasons -- Lucid has really limited the tire choices.

 

[Pragmatic]

You are over thinking this. By the time the tires need replacing the tires available will have changed. Tires you can get now will be NLA. Tires not available in the sizes you need will be added. Buy what you want (need) and worry about tire replacement in 2027. As to what is being supplied that will become very clear once substantial deliveries begin in the Spring.

 

[momo3605]

I do a lot of driving in heavy rain and don't drive in cold climes. The Hankooks have abysmal wet braking and and wet cornering numbers. And, unfortunately, there are no summer-rated tires available in both the staggered width and staggered diameter of the smallest wheel set.

View attachment 25496

By choosing to go with staggered wheel diameters on the Gravity -- something they did primarily for cosmetic reasons -- Lucid has really limited the tire choices.

You might as well just try the OEM tires, and if they aren’t good you can replace them in the future. All EV tires perform poorly in the rain as you can see in the diagram you posted. So it doesn’t really matter what tire you pick.

If you’ve survived in your Air, you likely will in the gravity too

 

[hmp10]

You are over thinking this. By the time the tires need replacing the tires available will have changed. Tires you can get now will be NLA. Tires not available in the sizes you need will be added. Buy what you want (need) and worry about tire replacement in 2027. As to what is being supplied that will become very clear once substantial deliveries begin in the Spring.

For the way and place that I drive, I want high-performance summer tires. And I'm interested in what tires I can put on the Gravity when it is delivered, not in 2027.

I'm not going to drive a 6,200-pound vehicle in the rain with those Hankooks, and there are no summer tire fitments for that smallest wheel set.

I'm well aware that tire series come and go and that sizes change. However, there are thousands of tires currently on the market covering almost every imaginable use case, yet precious few can be fitted to both the staggered wheel width and diameter of the Lucid wheels. One or the other, yes. But both . . . .

I am really beginning to think Lucid made a mistake in staggering the diameter on all three of the wheel options.

 

[momo3605]

I am really beginning to think Lucid made a mistake in staggering the diameter on all three of the wheel options

This part I will completely agree with.

 

[hmp10]

You might as well just try the OEM tires, and if they aren’t good you can replace them in the future. All EV tires perform poorly in the rain as you can see in the diagram you posted. So it doesn’t really matter what tire you pick.

If you’ve survived in your Air, you likely will in the gravity too

It's not true that all EV tires perform poorly in the rain. The LM1 Pirellis on our Air, which were Pirelli's first EV tire series, are superb in the rain. Also, the Pirelli P Zero PZ4's on that diagram I posted are EV tires. Elsewhere in the Tire Rack video from which I copied that diagram they said that the Pirellis had the ELECT stamp on the side. And, as you will note, the Pirellis were near the top in both wet braking and wet cornering.

One of the reasons I survived in our Air -- and in all the other high-performance cars I've driven over the years -- is that I am extremely careful with tire selection, inflation levels, and good tread. Tires -- and their limits -- get way less attention than they should from most drivers.

 

[borski]

I am really beginning to think Lucid made a mistake in staggering the diameter on all three of the wheel options.

I don’t think anyone will know until they drive it. Until then it’s all just guessing.

 

[borski]

It's not true that all EV tires perform poorly in the rain. The LM1 Pirellis on our Air, which were Pirelli's first EV tire series, are superb in the rain. Also, the Pirelli P Zero PZ4's on that diagram I posted are EV tires. Elsewhere in the Tire Rack video from which I copied that diagram they said that the Pirellis had the ELECT stamp on the side. And, as you will note, the Pirellis were near the top in both wet braking and wet cornering.

One of the reasons I survived in our Air -- and in all the other high-performance cars I've driven over the years -- is that I am extremely careful with tire selection, inflation levels, and good tread. Tires -- and their limits -- get way less attention than they should from most drivers.

I agree with everything you said here. I’m also fairly certain Lucid didn’t arbitrarily decide to sabotage their flagship SUV with, uh, poor tire decisions.

While most people don’t think about this the way you and I do (although you clearly think about it even more than me), I think it’s fair to say Lucid likely spends a fair bit of time thinking about it.

 

[Knucklehead]

It's not true that all EV tires perform poorly in the rain. The LM1 Pirellis on our Air, which were Pirelli's first EV tire series, are superb in the rain. Also, the Pirelli P Zero PZ4's on that diagram I posted are EV tires. Elsewhere in the Tire Rack video from which I copied that diagram they said that the Pirellis had the ELECT stamp on the side. And, as you will note, the Pirellis were near the top in both wet braking and wet cornering.

One of the reasons I survived in our Air -- and in all the other high-performance cars I've driven over the years -- is that I am extremely careful with tire selection, inflation levels, and good tread. Tires -- and their limits -- get way less attention than they should from most drivers.

As someone who has 10,000 miles on Hankook iON tires, I think you are too worried about them. I really don't think the differences shown in the chart translate to a dangerous tire.

The tires on my car are not dangerous. Definitely they are more slick than other tires, but that is the natural compromise that occurs when you get a low rolling resistance tire. It is a fact that lower rolling resistance is directly proportional to lower wet traction. It is physics. Better wet performance means worse efficiency. Pretty much guaranteed.

Of course you can replace the tires on the Gravity with tires that perform better in the wet. But your efficiency will decrease. Maybe that is a good tradeoff for your use case, but for mine, it is not.

And I repeat: the iONs are not dangerous. I have driven very aggressively on wet roads and never once had a concern about them.

 

[hmp10]

I agree with everything you said here. I’m also fairly certain Lucid didn’t arbitrarily decide to sabotage their flagship SUV with, uh, poor tire decisions.

While most people don’t think about this the way you and I do (although you clearly think about it even more than me), I think it’s fair to say Lucid likely spends a fair bit of time thinking about it.

I don't think Lucid sabotaged anything. What I think they were doing was covering as much ground as possible with tire and wheel choices, which I generally think is a good thing. For instance, I'm pretty sure that the Hankooks were chosen for their extraordinary range and put on what look like aero wheels in order to get at least one Gravity to a clear lead in the range race for those buyers to whom range in king. Then, to snag every bit of the handling chops its extraordinary chassis can deliver to driving enthusiasts, they put one of the best summer tires on the market on some big and very aggressive-looking open wheels. Finally, they tried to land something in the middle for buyers who might find the other two choices too extreme for one reason or another.

I get all of that and have no reason to disagree with it. However, the one thing in which I think Lucid might have mis-stepped is in staggering the wheel diameters. I assumed there must be some engineering reason for it that eluded me. But then I saw the Kyle Conner podcast in which he said that he asked one of the chassis engineers and was told it was mostly just for looks. Interestingly, this was followed by a comment from his sidekick that it had taken them a while even to notice the different diameters.

All of the tires Lucid chose and the wheel designs they chose would have worked just as well to deliver the desired results without staggering the diameters. That one little extra step, though, comes at the price of significantly limiting tire choices.

It would have been one thing to go for that last bit of visual punch on the most sport-oriented wheel set. But to do it on the small- and mid-sized sets, too, seems a bit much.

 

[hmp10]

As someone who has 10,000 miles on Hankook iON tires, I think you are too worried about them. I really don't think the differences shown in the chart translate to a dangerous tire.

The tires on my car are not dangerous. Definitely they are more slick than other tires, but that is the natural compromise that occurs when you get a low rolling resistance tire. It is a fact that lower rolling resistance is directly proportional to lower wet traction. It is physics. Better wet performance means worse efficiency. Pretty much guaranteed.

Of course you can replace the tires on the Gravity with tires that perform better in the wet. But your efficiency will decrease. Maybe that is a good tradeoff for your use case, but for mine, it is not.

And I repeat: the iONs are not dangerous. I have driven very aggressively on wet roads and never once had a concern about them.

I'm curious. On what car are you using them?

Here are reports from two of the twelve owners who have reviewed them on Tire Rack:

"When we originally put these tires on our Tesla Model 3 AWD, we were in love. They were so much quieter than the stock tires and improved the ride immensely. The problem started the first time it rained. We thought it was the road we were on as it looked quite new and knew that could affect it. But time and time again, we became more disappointed to downright not driving the car in the rain."

"I actually drove these tires in wet conditions for the first time today. They are terrible. They are possibly the slickest tire I've ever driven. I did not encounter deep water, so hydroplaning is unrated. I understand that fresh rain brings lubricants to the surface, and if you drive before they are washed away, it is the slickest time for driving. That is not what I experienced. The Pirellis that these tires replaced never NEVER slipped."

And here is what the test driver for Tire Rack said of the Hankook during the wet lap testing:

"If it had a little more traction to work with, I think it could do great things. It's stepping out, I would say abruptly . . . especially if you're hard on the power and haven't kinda set things up nice and smoothly." In other words, the Hankook's wet handling limits had to be taken more into account than with the other tires in the test.

In their final wrap up of the Hankook, this is what Tire Rack had to say:

I don't mean to impugn your view of the tire. In fairness, most of the other 10 owner reviews on Tire Rack were very positive about the tire, with one actually saying it had good wet traction, and the rest really liking some of the tire's other traits.

However, the Tire Rack comparison tests were done in controlled conditions by experienced test drivers, and both test measurements and their subjective impressions indicated real issues with wet traction. And the south Florida rainy season is half the year. While that doesn't mean constant rain, it can mean weeks on end where we get a heavy deluge for an hour or two every afternoon -- a deluge in which I'm often caught.