Well here it is Tesla Plaid versus Lucid Air Sapphire on the same day in the same place~ no excuses!

[hydbob]

Just playing devils advocate here.
Many people in comments are comparing the Sapphire to the Demon 170, in that they are insinuating the manufacturer provided cars with higher performance for demo/marketing purposes, while the actual delivered customer cars are unable to provide the level of performance advertised. Were any of the 9 flat or sub 9 1/4 mile runs done at the release event performed by customer cars, or demo cars which could have been tweaked slightly to offer better performance?

Also, the previous Hagerty comparison to a Plaid was done with a pre-production Sapphire, so maybe that level of dominance is not realistic to expect from a production model?

Bottom line is we need more data from actual vehicles owned by customers! Get your Dragys out or get to a drag strip and represent!

Well, as a reservation holder, does the video make you want to go buy a Plaid instead?

 

[Veritas51683]

Well, as a reservation holder, does the video make you want to go buy a Plaid instead?

Not in the slightest lol. I was a little bummed because I expected the Sapphire to do better despite the conditions, but like the COTA lap time, it doesn't really factor for me. I'm not going to take mine to a drag strip or track. Definitely will do some data collection with my dragy and post it!

I definitely would be curious to see some more data from customer vehicles though.

 

[Vivace95]

I’d want to see them race under better conditions before I concluded that. This was a wet track, the Plaid was modded (and weight removed), and so on, while the Sapphire was stock.

Give people a bit of time to get modding on the Sapphire, and we shall see.

but I’m curious to get @Bill55 and @Charley impressions too

Agree put that Sapphire under a weight loss program and see what happens. There’s what, an 800 -lb delta????

 

[hmp10]

Yeah hell must have frozen over. The comments section about how Lucid sucks and the Sapphire is ugly and Tesla designer Franz is a golden god and mocking the Sapphire owner cuz of the $ he spent only to get beat (on a track with bad conditions and the wrong tires) might be a subtle indicator this video was designed with a certain viewership in mind. Isn’t it interesting how you don’t see Kia or Mercedes or BMW enthusiasts jumping at the chance to hate on Lucid? I’ve met many, they’re all nice people who complimented my Air GT and I complemented their cars too because yes, there are some things each of those cars do well. Tesla owners are nice in person too, just not online or on YouTube haha.

So much of this reminds me of the "old days" when America's Big Three pumped out cars with massive straight-line power but handling and braking that should shame any serious car engineer. Meanwhile, the Germans were putting more expensive but far more sophisticated performance cars on the road -- cars which put out plenty of power but with significantly better dynamic abilities to handle it.

I have very mixed feelings about this Sapphire / Plaid set-to. I certainly understand Lucid's desire to create a brand halo effect around a supercar. But I also worry that Rawlinson has let himself get sucked into a grudge match against Elon Musk that is diluting focus on his stated aim of taking on the German luxury brands.

Musk will put anything on the road that grabs the eyeballs of internet adolescents (of any age, it turns out) and slakes their thirst for raw acceleration numbers. Whether the car can safely handle the power on the road or provide a true enthusiast's driving experience on track or road is beside the point, as I can attest from owning a pre-track-package 2021 Model S Plaid. How many reviewers have declared the Plaid's stock brakes subpar and the yoke unwieldy to the point of danger in quick or emergency maneuvers? Ah . . . but that 0-60 time!

The Plaid is for the EV buyers who once bought live-rear-axle Boss Mustangs over Porsche 911s or BMW M3s.

 

[hydbob]

So much of this reminds me of the "old days" when America's Big Three pumped out cars with massive straight-line power but handling and braking that should shame any serious car engineer. Meanwhile, the Germans were putting more expensive but far more sophisticated performance cars on the road -- cars which put out plenty of power but with significantly better dynamic abilities to handle it.

I have very mixed feelings about this Sapphire / Plaid set-to. I certainly understand Lucid's desire to create a brand halo effect around a supercar. But I also worry that Rawlinson has let himself get sucked into a grudge match against Elon Musk that is diluting focus on his stated aim of taking on the German luxury brands.

Musk will put anything on the road that grabs the eyeballs of internet adolescents (of any age, it turns out) and slakes their thirst for raw acceleration numbers. Whether the car can safely handle the power on the road or provide a true enthusiast's driving experience on track or road is beside the point, as I can attest from owning a pre-track-package 2021 Model S Plaid. How many reviewers have declared the Plaid's stock brakes subpar and the yoke unwieldy to the point of danger in quick or emergency maneuvers? Ah . . . but that 0-60 time!

The Plaid is for the EV buyers who once bought live-rear-axle Boss Mustangs over Porsche 911s or BMW M3s.

No Sapphire, no licensing deal for Aston Martin is how I truly feel about the development of this car.

 

[joec]

So much of this reminds me of the "old days" when America's Big Three pumped out cars with massive straight-line power but handling and braking that should shame any serious car engineer. Meanwhile, the Germans were putting more expensive but far more sophisticated performance cars on the road -- cars which put out plenty of power but with significantly better dynamic abilities to handle it.

I have very mixed feelings about this Sapphire / Plaid set-to. I certainly understand Lucid's desire to create a brand halo effect around a supercar. But I also worry that Rawlinson has let himself get sucked into a grudge match against Elon Musk that is diluting focus on his stated aim of taking on the German luxury brands.

Musk will put anything on the road that grabs the eyeballs of internet adolescents (of any age, it turns out) and slakes their thirst for raw acceleration numbers. Whether the car can safely handle the power on the road or provide a true enthusiast's driving experience on track or road is beside the point, as I can attest from owning a pre-track-package 2021 Model S Plaid. How many reviewers have declared the Plaid's stock brakes subpar and the yoke unwieldy to the point of danger in quick or emergency maneuvers? Ah . . . but that 0-60 time!

The Plaid is for the EV buyers who once bought live-rear-axle Boss Mustangs over Porsche 911s or BMW M3s.

1000x this.

 

[NoseyReporter]

Just playing devils advocate here.
Many people in comments are comparing the Sapphire to the Demon 170, in that they are insinuating the manufacturer provided cars with higher performance for demo/marketing purposes, while the actual delivered customer cars are unable to provide the level of performance advertised. Were any of the 9 flat or sub 9 1/4 mile runs done at the release event performed by customer cars, or demo cars which could have been tweaked slightly to offer better performance?

Also, the previous Hagerty comparison to a Plaid was done with a pre-production Sapphire, so maybe that level of dominance is not realistic to expect from a production model?

Bottom line is we need more data from actual vehicles owned by customers! Get your Dragys out or get to a drag strip and represent!

Absolutely agree. More data points of owners taking their cars to the track.

 

[segbrk]

Let’s be honest, the important benchmark between the two is how good a massage you get while pulling 200mph on the drag strip. I expect a detailed report.

 

[hmp10]

No Sapphire, no licensing deal for Aston Martin is how I truly feel about the development of this car.

Maybe. But I have a feeling that the Saudi PIF's large stake in Aston had something to do with it, too.

To be candid, some of my frustration with the direction of the Sapphire is that I was hoping that its tri-motor drivetrain would make its way into an upper-trim Gravity in order to deal with the greater mass of that vehicle instead of into just a Sapphire version of the Gravity. For instance, the rear torque vectoring of the Air Sapphire is reported to be more effective than rear-wheel steering in high-speed and cornering maneuvers. And dispensing with rear-wheel steering in the Gravity would give more latitude in suspension design, such as using the very effective integral link rear suspension of the Air -- a design that usually does not comport with rear-wheel steering.

I honestly wonder what possible purpose a Gravity Sapphire will serve. Is anyone actually going to track such a vehicle other than for purposes of writing articles or making videos for internet channels?

 

[xponents]

So much of this reminds me of the "old days" when America's Big Three pumped out cars with massive straight-line power but handling and braking that should shame any serious car engineer. Meanwhile, the Germans were putting more expensive but far more sophisticated performance cars on the road -- cars which put out plenty of power but with significantly better dynamic abilities to handle it.

I have very mixed feelings about this Sapphire / Plaid set-to. I certainly understand Lucid's desire to create a brand halo effect around a supercar. But I also worry that Rawlinson has let himself get sucked into a grudge match against Elon Musk that is diluting focus on his stated aim of taking on the German luxury brands.

Musk will put anything on the road that grabs the eyeballs of internet adolescents (of any age, it turns out) and slakes their thirst for raw acceleration numbers. Whether the car can safely handle the power on the road or provide a true enthusiast's driving experience on track or road is beside the point, as I can attest from owning a pre-track-package 2021 Model S Plaid. How many reviewers have declared the Plaid's stock brakes subpar and the yoke unwieldy to the point of danger in quick or emergency maneuvers? Ah . . . but that 0-60 time!

The Plaid is for the EV buyers who once bought live-rear-axle Boss Mustangs over Porsche 911s or BMW M3s.

That is a brilliant way to put it.

I also agree with the fact that Gravity DE should be tri motor. Even an Air sapphire is a vehicle that is getting lost in its meaning, but a Gravity sapphire is another level. NOBODY is tracking that SUV and only 1/20 people will track the Air.

Also, just how much more expensive would it be for lucid to make a tri motor vs dual motor setup?

 

[borski]

Last person I would trust to be unbiased would be a Lucid employee.

The only one we know that has done head to head testing is in the OP which y’all are quick to find faults all over in

This whole thread reminds me so much of: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079

To be candid, some of my frustration with the direction of the Sapphire is that I was hoping that its tri-motor drivetrain would make its way into an upper-trim Gravity in order to deal with the greater mass of that vehicle instead of into just a Sapphire version of the Gravity. For instance, the rear torque vectoring of the Air Sapphire is reported to be more effective than rear-wheel steering in high-speed and cornering maneuvers. And dispensing with rear-wheel steering in the Gravity would give more latitude in suspension design, such as using the very effective integral link rear suspension of the Air -- a design that usually does not comport with rear-wheel steering.

Yeah, I’m secretly hoping against hope that the DE will be a trimotor.

 

[xponents]

This whole thread reminds me so much of: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079


Yeah, I’m secretly hoping against hope that the DE will be a trimotor.

800 hp from a tri motor would be terribly low, though.

 

[DeaneG]

800 hp from a tri motor would be terribly low, though.

Depends on the vehicle's goals.

 

[xponents]

Depends on the vehicle's goals.

Good point, lucid has already stated that the gravity is tuned for torque over hp. Speaking of which, do we have torque figures? Or estimates?

 

[hydbob]

Good point, lucid has already stated that the gravity is tuned for torque over hp. Speaking of which, do we have torque figures? Or estimates?

Wrong thread.

 

[joec]

Depends on the vehicle's goals.

Precisely. Lucid has clearly positioned Gravity not as a "flagship" high-end SUV but instead sitting just below Air in the lineup.

I think we can all agree this was the smarter move to get more butts in Gravity.

Perhaps a flagship SUV will come sometime after Gravity. But Gravity ain't it, folks. I wouldn't expect tri-motor or Sapphire.

The second Gravity rolls into production, all hands on deck will likely shift to finishing the mid-sized car.

 

[hmp10]

Perhaps a flagship SUV will come sometime after Gravity. But Gravity ain't it, folks. I wouldn't expect tri-motor or Sapphire.

The second Gravity rolls into production, all hands on deck will likely shift to finishing the mid-sized car.

I agree that the immediate priority after the Gravity should be a mid-sized car. But Lucid has said that each model in the lineup will have a Sapphire version. From an August 2022 Lucid website page:

"Additional Sapphire models will be available for all Lucid models moving forward, continuing to set new standards for how luxury performance can look and feel."

Also, Zak Edson told me about three years ago that the Air platform was engineered from the get-go to take up to four motors, with bigger vehicles in the future lineup having three or even four motors. This is one of the reasons I had assumed the Air Sapphire was a development bed for a tri-motor drivetrain that would see wider duty than just a very limited edition of a track-oriented car.

Of course, the market has taught Lucid a lot since then, and their plans are probably evolving real time.

 

[borski]

But Lucid has said that each model in the lineup will have a Sapphire version.

True, but they didn’t say when. The only thing this did is establish the name for their future “sport” trims.

Also, Zak Edson told me about three years ago that the Air platform was engineered from the get-go to take up to four motors, with bigger vehicles in the future lineup having three or even four motors.

And that’s still true. I’m certain the Gravity *can* have 3-4 motors; to engineer it in such a way that that wasn’t true (and thus not future proof) would be a mistake.

Of course, the market has taught Lucid a lot since then, and their plans are probably evolving real time.

 

[NoseyReporter]

Any more talk about the Gravity and I'm going have to report all of you to the mods for not following forums rules.

 

[xponents]

Any more talk about the Gravity and I'm going have to report all of you to the mods for not following forums rules.

Hey, wait a second...