Why some EV owners went back to ICE

[joec]

I believe in choice. EV or ICE or hydrogen fuel cell, let the market decide. From what I have read on the subject, including a recent study commissioned by Rivian and Polestar, there is not a significant difference in carbon and particulate output, between ICE and EVs, when all aspects of production, daily use and recycling are added together. Most electricity still comes from non renewable, unclean sources. In fact, even if all vehicles were EVs, the feared 1.5 degree C warming will likely occur. Thus I don't believe that my Lucid is anything more than a fun driving machine. I am not saving the planet, I am having fun driving. That is why I purchased it. Our government, is trying to force us away from ICE vehicles, by regulatory fiat, and tax incentives, that favor EVs over all other vehicles. What if there is a better alternative that would accomplish the personal transportation needs of people? Governments should not pick winners and losers. If the charging infrastructure remains terrible, then people won't adopt EVs as quickly as regulators would like. It should be a personal choice. EVs are not for everyone, everywhere, all at once.

If it weren’t for government intervention, we all would not have the “choice” to buy a Lucid. Tesla would never have survived without massive assistance from government loans, both federal and Californian. Without Tesla surviving, no traditional automaker would have moved toward making EVs. And Lucid would not exist.

We’d all still be driving ICE cars and thinking it was our “choice” to do so.

 

[hmp10]

Something I am curious about is when does Lucid specific charge infrastructure start?

Tesla had no choice but to build out a charging infrastructure as there was nothing of any significance in place at the time they launched, and EVs were not yet a sufficiently proven concept to attract investment dollars from other quarters. (The Japanese CHAdeMO standard was showing up in the U.S. but was really optimized for Japan's different power delivery system.)

For several reasons (see https://thedriven.io/2018/10/10/tesla/) the world is now moving to the CCS standard. These days, the Tesla system is specific to Tesla only in the U.S., as they have been required to conform to common standards in other regions.

Rivian, of course, is installing its own CCS chargers, but only in isolated locations that are venues for its adventure-oriented customer base and that are off the beaten track of mass travel.

Ford is reported to be considering installing CCS DCFC at Ford dealerships, most of which are easily accessible to mass transit routes. But it is a much easier task to install DCFC at sites already owned and with commercial power feeds already in place.

For macro-economic reasons, the answer to CCS charging is not for each car manufacturer -- especially the startups with no dealer network to leverage -- to take on the capital costs of developing their own charging infrastructure any more than ICE manufacturers should have been expected to develop their own gasoline supply infrastructure.

 

[hmp10]

Most electricity still comes from non renewable, unclean sources.

This is changing rapidly.

In Florida, which is second only to California in EV adoption rate, power generation is becoming increasingly clean. Florida Power & Light shut down its last coal-powered plant a couple of years ago and now generates power only from natural gas, nuclear, or solar sources -- with solar being the fastest growing component.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Florida ranks 5th among U.S. states in air and water quality.

 

[stratus]

I believe in choice. EV or ICE or hydrogen fuel cell, let the market decide. From what I have read on the subject, including a recent study commissioned by Rivian and Polestar, there is not a significant difference in carbon and particulate output, between ICE and EVs, when all aspects of production, daily use and recycling are added together. Most electricity still comes from non renewable, unclean sources. In fact, even if all vehicles were EVs, the feared 1.5 degree C warming will likely occur. Thus I don't believe that my Lucid is anything more than a fun driving machine. I am not saving the planet, I am having fun driving. That is why I purchased it. Our government, is trying to force us away from ICE vehicles, by regulatory fiat, and tax incentives, that favor EVs over all other vehicles. What if there is a better alternative that would accomplish the personal transportation needs of people? Governments should not pick winners and losers. If the charging infrastructure remains terrible, then people won't adopt EVs as quickly as regulators would like. It should be a personal choice. EVs are not for everyone, everywhere, all at once.

I also believe in choice and don’t necessarily want to start an ideological argument. I also don’t think I am saving the planet, however, there are clear arguments, and there is good data, to support the notion that electric vehicles are less polluting, and will be more beneficial in the fight against climate change, especially as we transition to cleaner energy supplies. The main issue I see in the current social and political climate is the steady stream of misinformation. I get kind of tired of the well your electric car is powered by coal when my grid doesn’t even have a coal fire plant, etc. Government mandates aren’t necessarily as effective as reasonable incentives, especially in this country. The current state of our charging infrastructure is pretty pathetic, especially in places like Idaho, where I live; I hope in the near future, I have the choice to drive an electric vehicle wherever I want.

 

[WildRide47]

I believe in choice. EV or ICE or hydrogen fuel cell, let the market decide. From what I have read on the subject, including a recent study commissioned by Rivian and Polestar, there is not a significant difference in carbon and particulate output, between ICE and EVs, when all aspects of production, daily use and recycling are added together. Most electricity still comes from non renewable, unclean sources. In fact, even if all vehicles were EVs, the feared 1.5 degree C warming will likely occur. Thus I don't believe that my Lucid is anything more than a fun driving machine. I am not saving the planet, I am having fun driving. That is why I purchased it. Our government, is trying to force us away from ICE vehicles, by regulatory fiat, and tax incentives, that favor EVs over all other vehicles. What if there is a better alternative that would accomplish the personal transportation needs of people? Governments should not pick winners and losers. If the charging infrastructure remains terrible, then people won't adopt EVs as quickly as regulators would like. It should be a personal choice. EVs are not for everyone, everywhere, all at once.

I generally agree with what you said. However, wouldn't it be nice to go downtown and not inhale the car fumes that permeate the city. There is a safety factor here irregardless whether you believe it has an effect on climate change or not. Inhaling car fumes is unhealthy and EV's make it a healthier alternative, whether downtown or in your local neighborhood out for a walk.

 

[Cosmo Cruz]

Back to the Future: Ford Nucleon 1957
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

Goes 250,000 years on a "charge" ( must provide your own plutonium )

 

[stratus]

Back to the Future: Ford Nucleon 1957
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

Goes 250,000 years on a "charge" ( must provide your own plutonium )

Let’s get those fusion powered cars next.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

I believe in choice. EV or ICE or hydrogen fuel cell, let the market decide. From what I have read on the subject, including a recent study commissioned by Rivian and Polestar, there is not a significant difference in carbon and particulate output, between ICE and EVs, when all aspects of production, daily use and recycling are added together. Most electricity still comes from non renewable, unclean sources. In fact, even if all vehicles were EVs, the feared 1.5 degree C warming will likely occur. Thus I don't believe that my Lucid is anything more than a fun driving machine. I am not saving the planet, I am having fun driving. That is why I purchased it. Our government, is trying to force us away from ICE vehicles, by regulatory fiat, and tax incentives, that favor EVs over all other vehicles. What if there is a better alternative that would accomplish the personal transportation needs of people? Governments should not pick winners and losers. If the charging infrastructure remains terrible, then people won't adopt EVs as quickly as regulators would like. It should be a personal choice. EVs are not for everyone, everywhere, all at once.

If I recall correctly didn’t that same study show after 2-3 years of ownership the pollution was offset and a net negative footprint resulted, the one caveat being if the grid was coal powered it took longer to offset? Just want to make sure the whole story is being told and not the impression given that there’s no pollution/CO2 difference between EV/ICE, which is not true and the more studies that are done seem to land even more in EVs favor. Also efficiency matters, a car getting 4.0 mi/kWh is going to have much less footprint than a Rivian doing 2.1 mi/kWh.

E.V.s Start With a Bigger Carbon Footprint. But That Doesn’t Last. (Published 2022)

The manufacturing and disposal of electric vehicles result in more greenhouse gases than nonelectric models, but that difference will eventually disappear altogether.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Actually the Polestar Rivian study is a new one, I was confusing it with a prior Polestar one. The most recent one’s focus is on projections of whether switching to BEV will help meet the Paris climate goals. At current pace it will not, and part of the problem is EVs need to reduce the carbon footprint from manufacturing by 83%, and using renewables to charge alone will not meet the goal of preventing global temperature rise of 1.5C. It does not conclude, at least anywhere that I can find in the study, that ICE and EV have the same climate footprint regardless of usage, etc.

 

[stratus]

If I recall correctly didn’t that same study show after 2-3 years of ownership the pollution was offset and a net negative footprint resulted, the one caveat being if the grid was coal powered it took longer to offset? Just want to make sure the whole story is being told and not the impression given that there’s no pollution/CO2 difference between EV/ICE, which is not true and the more studies that are done seem to land even more in EVs favor. Also efficiency matters, a car getting 4.0 mi/kWh is going to have much less footprint than a Rivian doing 2.1 mi/kWh.

E.V.s Start With a Bigger Carbon Footprint. But That Doesn’t Last. (Published 2022)

The manufacturing and disposal of electric vehicles result in more greenhouse gases than nonelectric models, but that difference will eventually disappear altogether.

www.nytimes.com

Thanks for providing that link. It is a great article .

 

[whywar]

This is changing rapidly.

In Florida, which is second only to California in EV adoption rate, power generation is becoming increasingly clean. Florida Power & Light shut down its last coal-powered plant a couple of years ago and now generates power only from natural gas, nuclear, or solar sources -- with solar being the fastest growing component.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Florida ranks 5th among U.S. states in air and water quality.

That is why Florida Power and Light offers unlimited off-peak EV charging for $31/mo. They supply the charger, but require a 10 year contract.

 

[RM-S8]

Some parts of America is so backward just like most parts of South America.

Washington DC?

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Washington DC?

Yeah stupidity is not constrained by borders on a map. Like yeah let’s bias the federal EV tax credit towards less efficient more carbon costly SUVs and trucks.

 

[CLTGT]

Unlike many here, I am not obsessed with ICE or EV, but I will say that I did not take my Lucid on a road trip from Charlotte to New Orleans and then to Seaside, FL and then back to Charlotte over a two week period because of charging worries over a lack of charging network in Mississippi and New Orleans.

EV sales in some of the areas is a chicken and egg problem. Some may take the view that a greater percentage of EV’s purchased will drive an increase in chargers and some may think more chargers might result in more EV’s. I personally think it is the latter up until a point where the general public is comfortable taking the risk.

I love driving my Lucid, but the current state of the charging network in the southeast will not allow me to even consider being a non-ICE option household at present.

 

[Cosmo Cruz]

I'm thinking about getting a second-hand Miata. Oh I'm not giving up the Lucid ... it's just...

There is absolutely nothing like the pure joy of a roadster... screaming into infinity in any kind of weather...topless.

 

[pam4_AGT]

There is absolutely nothing like the pure joy of a roadster... screaming into infinity in any kind of weather...topless.

Not clear what "topless" is referring to here - you or the car? Either way, fine with me.