Savage Geese just dropped his Sapphire review!

[xponents]

In addition, is it true that the lucid disables its front motor in smooth(fwd cruising..)? This has not been known before.

 

[NoseyReporter]

I wanna see them throw some purple crack on it.

 

[Andretex]

Wow. This video is like watching a blockbuster movie. I could not put it down and watched it till the end.

 

[hmp10]

In addition, is it true that the lucid disables its front motor in smooth(fwd cruising..)? This has not been known before.
View attachment 14975

I noticed that, too, and it was the first time I'd seen a mention of Lucid's using only one motor during cruising.

I haven't kept up with Tesla's approach lately, but a few years back Tesla went to a permanent magnet motor on one end of the car and an induction motor on the other end of the car so that the induction motor could be turned off for cruising. An induction motor spins freely when no current is supplied to it, while a permanent magnet motor generates drag when no current is supplied. So, if you're only going to use one motor, you would use the permanent magnet motor -- first, because a permanent magnet motor is inherently more efficient than an induction motor; second, cutting current to the permanent magnet motor would create unwanted drag.

Lucid, on the other hand, uses permanent magnet motors at both ends of the car. If you turned off one for more efficient cruising, I assume you would have to disengage it mechanically from the drivetrain rather than just cutting current to it as you could with an induction motor. However, in the 2020 time frame Peter Rawlinson gave some interviews where he said Lucid had developed a permanent magnet motor that behaved like an induction motor, at least when it came to cogging torque (which is a downside of running a permanent magnet motor at low speed). It was not clear whether this induction-like behavior extended to other characteristics of the Lucid motor, although by definition a permanent magnet motor would continue to generate a magnetic field even when no current is supplied to it.

(If I got some of this confused, maybe the engineers here can step in and set things straight.)

 

[xponents]

I noticed that, too, and it was the first time I'd seen a mention of Lucid's using only one motor during cruising.

I haven't kept up with Tesla's approach lately, but a few years back Tesla went to a permanent magnet motor on one end of the car and an induction motor on the other end of the car so that the induction motor could be turned off for cruising. An induction motor spins freely when no current is supplied to it, while a permanent magnet motor generates drag when no current is supplied. So, if you're only going to use one motor, you would use the permanent magnet motor -- first, because a permanent magnet motor is inherently more efficient than an induction motor; second, cutting current to the permanent magnet motor would create unwanted drag.

Lucid, on the other hand, uses permanent magnet motors at both ends of the car. If you turned off one for more efficient cruising, I assume you would have to disengage it mechanically from the drivetrain rather than just cutting current to it as you could with an induction motor. However, in the 2020 time frame Peter Rawlinson gave some interviews where he said Lucid had developed a permanent magnet motor that behaved like an induction motor, at least when it came to cogging torque (which is a downside of running a permanent magnet motor at low speed). It was not clear whether this induction-like behavior extended to other characteristics of the Lucid motor, although by definition a permanent magnet motor would continue to generate a magnetic field even when no current is supplied to it.

(If I got some of this confused, maybe the engineers here can step in and set things straight.)

I suspect that they do not completely turn it off, rather they detune it to 20 horsepower or a low figure like that. However, my theory is likely to be wrong, as if they could do that, would they not just limit the FRONT motor and also slightly limit the rear motor, for similar efficiency as the FWD but RWD driving manners?

I am also no expert on electrics and motors, so I will refrain from making conclusions on the permanent magnet motors.

In addition, does the plaid also have one induction motor? I thought with the palladium it is all permanent?

 

[hydbob]

Also, here is a track leaderboard:
View attachment 14974
It beat EVERYTHING except a GT3(less than 2 seconds behind,) a z06, and it managed to BEAT a tuned cayman gt4 rs on cup 2 tires.

I bow down to the Lucid Sapphire. This is the greatest car I have ever seen. Put proper cup 2 R tires on it, and it would likely beat the z06... And put a proper aero kit on it? I literally CANNOT imagine how fast it would be.

Biggest glaring issue between 1&2 vs 3 is Temp (55 vs 105) and tires

 

[hmp10]

In addition, does the plaid also have one induction motor? I thought with the palladium it is all permanent?

I think you may be right, but I don't know for sure. Once we had a chance to live with both our Plaid and our Air Dream, I've pretty much lost interest in what Tesla is doing. My brother insists on keeping me sort of up to date on what Tesla is doing on the manufacturing engineering front, which I think is the only area in which Tesla may still be moving ahead of Lucid, at least with the Model Y and the Model 3.

Given that Tesla is producing those cars at vastly larger volumes than Lucid, manufacturing is a much bigger component of the game for Tesla. (Based on our Model S Plaid's fit & finish and the body creaks and groans it's developed, I'm not overly impressed with Tesla's manufacturing and assembly on that model, though.) On the other hand, I have to recognize that, although the Plaid had more issues at delivery two years ago than our Air, it's been in the shop a lot less since than either of our Air Dreams. I attribute this to the fact that our Airs were very early production models and am trusting (hoping?) that later Airs prove their durability over the long haul.

 

[xponents]

Biggest glaring issue between 1&2 vs 3 is Temp (55 vs 105) and tires

Which set had the higher temperatures, the air or the other 2?

 

[NoseyReporter]

Which set had the higher temperatures, the air or the other 2?

Air was 105 and wayyy heavier.

 

[blueice89]

I really liked the video my one critique it seemed a little too much like Lucid paid for this video. Did anyone else get that vibe? I just never seen so much Lucid involvement in one video. Other than that as a Lucid fan I learned so much about the company, its employees, and how the Sapphire drives. They should do more on Lucid other models.

 

[Volund]

Also, here is a track leaderboard:
View attachment 14974
It beat EVERYTHING except a GT3(less than 2 seconds behind,) a z06, and it managed to BEAT a tuned cayman gt4 rs on cup 2 tires.

I bow down to the Lucid Sapphire. This is the greatest car I have ever seen. Put proper cup 2 R tires on it, and it would likely beat the z06... And put a proper aero kit on it? I literally CANNOT imagine how fast it would be.

I don't know enough about these track cars, so enlighten me a bit about the facts.

Are those first 2 cars (the GT3 and the Z06) in completely stock or modded in some way? Are those the production versions that set those records?

 

[xponents]

Air was 105 and wayyy heavier.

On one hand, higher temperatures means more tire grip(or is that only formula 1)? On the other hand, power is reduced as it needs to be cooled more.

 

[Volund]

I think you may be right, but I don't know for sure. Once we had a chance to live with both our Plaid and our Air Dream, I've pretty much lost interest in what Tesla is doing. My brother insists on keeping me sort of up to date on what Tesla is doing on the manufacturing engineering front, which I think is the only area in which Tesla may still be moving ahead of Lucid, at least with the Model Y and the Model 3.

Given that Tesla is producing those cars at vastly larger volumes than Lucid, manufacturing is a much bigger component of the game for Tesla. (Based on our Model S Plaid's fit & finish and the body creaks and groans it's developed, I'm not overly impressed with Tesla's manufacturing and assembly on that model, though.) On the other hand, I have to recognize that, although the Plaid had more issues at delivery two years ago than our Air, it's been in the shop a lot less since than either of our Air Dreams. I attribute this to the fact that our Airs were very early production models and am trusting (hoping?) that later Airs prove their durability over the long haul.

Didn't lucid bring ovee a former executive at Chinese electric car start-up Nio, to lead its business in China? Jiang previously worked for Ford and Jidu Motor, the electric car division of Baid..
This means that he should have a good idea of manufacturing engineering as both Ford and also Nio have good manufacturing engineering and nio being on the ev side and Ford being judt raw expertise with how many years they've been around, a lot to be learned and adapted.

 

[xponents]

I don't know enough about these track cars, so enlighten me a bit about the facts.

Are those first 2 cars (the GT3 and the Z06) in completely stock or modded in some way? Are those the production versions that set those records?

And yes, they are completely stock. The Z06 in particular has beat a Mclaren once, they are regarded as the fastest cars under 300k apart from the GT3 RS. The fact that the lucid is even close to them is astonishing. With the tires they have, it is likely to beat them. In addition, the z06 has the z07 package for aerodynamics, if the lucid had track aero(ugly wings, splitters, etc,) it would DEMOLISH them.

I could give more specific facts upon request, I will just send them in DMS to not hijack this thread if you want!

 

[Volund]

I really liked the video my one critique it seemed a little too much like Lucid paid for this video. Did anyone else get that vibe? I just never seen so much Lucid involvement in one video. Other than that as a Lucid fan I learned so much about the company, its employees, and how the Sapphire drives. They should do more on Lucid other models.

I kind of got that feel, but anyone who knows Savagegoose knows that he is a harsh critic.
Also it was mentioned in the video that Lucid asked them to review the Sapphire.

Later on they posted in the comments that they love the transparency of Lucid and they have a negative bias towards Tesla because they always hide what they're doing and are not transparent at all.

 

[Volund]

And yes, they are completely stock. The Z06 in particular has beat a Mclaren once, they are regarded as the fastest cars under 300k apart from the GT3 RS. The fact that the lucid is even close to them is astonishing. With the tires they have, it is likely to beat them. In addition, the z06 has the z07 package for aerodynamics, if the lucid had track aero(ugly wings, splitters, etc,) it would DEMOLISH them.

I could give more specific facts upon request, I will just send them in DMS to not hijack this thread if you want!

Sure!

 

[Overcharged]

I really liked the video my one critique it seemed a little too much like Lucid paid for this video. Did anyone else get that vibe? I just never seen so much Lucid involvement in one video. Other than that as a Lucid fan I learned so much about the company, its employees, and how the Sapphire drives. They should do more on Lucid other models.

I think it is more about when they get heavy access within the manufacturer, they weight the content in that direction. The best example I recall is the C8 Z06 video.

 

[NoseyReporter]

I don't know enough about these track cars, so enlighten me a bit about the facts.

Are those first 2 cars (the GT3 and the Z06) in completely stock or modded in some way? Are those the production versions that set those records?

Probably stock, considering it's a review.

Gt3 is a weapon, like a kitana. Drive it clean and smooth and it will reward you. The motor also needs to be rung out. Comparatively not much torque.

Z06 is more like a cleaver. It's easier to get it to do the same job, but the last ounce of perfect isn't quiet there. 90% of the function for a fraction of the cost. The motor has more torque.

Between the two it's not surprising the Z06 is faster on a track with not very many straights or long straights. Torque let's the car accelerate faster out of the apex.

I bet the gt3 would have the highest apex speed of the three. With the sapphire being the lowest due to weight. However the sapphire probably makes up for this in any straight due to the sheer acceleration from corner apex onto the straight. My guess is that I he Z06 would be next, followed by the gt3.

It would be extremely interesting to see what these three cars minimum im apex speed were and what their end of straight speeds were.

 

[Overcharged]

Sapphire is just a halo car. Though surely it’s the best on the market, if they deliver 500 of them over the lifetime of the program I’d be impressed.

I suspect they will end up reskinning this car and selling it as an Aston Martin.

Fun prediction. I think it will do much better.
For folks who like pissing contests and can pay for the admission, Ferrari, Mclaren, Lambo and a subset of Porsche customers, this car will be a novelty to add to their 5 to 25 vehicle fleets.

 

[NoseyReporter]

On one hand, higher temperatures means more tire grip(or is that only formula 1)? On the other hand, power is reduced as it needs to be cooled more.

More grip until the tires get greasy and eventually tear.

It also depends on tire compound. Something like the re71r provides grip right away, good for autox. The re71r on a heavy car will quickly overheat and get greasy on a track.

The Cup2 compound needs heat to produce grip; r compound. However given the Sapphires weight and ambient temp, I wouldn't be surprised if grip came right away.

Formula 1 is the same. They are constantly managing tire temperature. You hear is all the time when they are preparing for a quali lap, and have to properly manage tire temp on their out lap so the tires produce max grip for their push lap. Sometimes you even hear about the tires falling off at the end of their push lap because they overheated the tire somewhere in the middle or beginning of their lap.