NACS (Tesla adapter) versus CCS Megathread

[niceguy]

Exactly my first thought on this topic.

I'd hate for Lucid to switch to NACS because leaving behind 350kw would be torture on road trips.

Not only that, now imagine how crowded the Tesla super charging stations will be even more so after all this goes into effect.
I had a Tesla loaner and already found myself at full supercharger stalls in the city.
And the charging speed was horribly slow. That's how Elon got the customer base to wait that long was to include games, gimmick's and the ability to watch movies while you charge.

I have Tesla Model X and have frequently taken on road, I have found Tesla SC network very reliable, only occasionally I have found them full but only for a short wait, speed is

V4 chargers are still a ways away.. A long ways
And rolling out all that infrastructure, you'll be at 50KW for a while.

And have you seen the charging curve of Lucid? You have to be quite low to hit 350kw.

And multiple people here have hit 350 or close to it, but you have to get that low.

On a road trip, I never get below 20-30% before I charge, so I've never hit it. But I've hit 250kw quite regularly on my first road trip from DC to Utah.

I have on more than one occasion dropped below 20%, once at 9%, atleast partially conditioned batteries and never got promised rate from EA

 

[Volund]

I have Tesla Model X and have frequently taken on road, I have found Tesla SC network very reliable, only occasionally I have found them full but only for a short wait, speed is

I have on more than one occasion dropped below 20%, once at 9%, atleast partially conditioned batteries and never got promised rate from EA

Yeah EA isn't as reliable. But I was referring to charging speed more than infrastructure here. Any CCS level 3 charger would get me higher speeds than NACS right now on the Lucid.
But the Tesla superchargers here are always full and I'm not even in a big city. Can't imagine California.

 

[Neurio]

Wouldn't that be issue with GM and Ford too? I still am not sure if this agreement is for current owners or in future models that will have NACS port

I'm outside of my wheelhouse on this one, but no, it wouldn't, unless those guys change their battery structure to have higher voltage packs. The reason for the slow speeds on the Air is the 900V architecture because the V3 superchargers can't get anywhere close to that voltage, limiting the speeds the Air can accept. Someone who understands this better can explain in more detail/better accuracy.

 

[niceguy]

I'm outside of my wheelhouse on this one, but no, it wouldn't, unless those guys change their battery structure to have higher voltage packs. The reason for the slow speeds on the Air is the 900V architecture because the V3 superchargers can't get anywhere close to that voltage, limiting the speeds the Air can accept. Someone who understands this better can explain in more detail/better accuracy.

I am no expert either, may be some Guru can clarify it

My understanding is that Tesla cars put charge directly into battery packs from SC, where as Lucid uses invertor to put charge into battery packs, Invertor i believe is rated at 350KW, so theoretically in absence of other compatibility/software issues, it should be able to accept Tesla's 150/250KW charge, there can be other issues though that we commoners are not privy to

 

[Adnillien]

I'm outside of my wheelhouse on this one, but no, it wouldn't, unless those guys change their battery structure to have higher voltage packs. The reason for the slow speeds on the Air is the 900V architecture because the V3 superchargers can't get anywhere close to that voltage, limiting the speeds the Air can accept. Someone who understands this better can explain in more detail/better accuracy.

The existing Tesla superchargers only supply 400-500 volts. Well below the 700V (Touring/Pure) and 900V (GT/Dream). In order to charge a higher voltage battery, the car must do a DC to DC voltage boost. In our Lucid Airs, this DC to DC voltage boost is limited to 50kW. Hence, our Lucid Airs are limited to 50kW on the existing Tesla Supercharger network.

 

[stratus]

The existing Tesla superchargers only supply 400-500 volts. Well below the 700V (Touring/Pure) and 900V (GT/Dream). In order to charge a higher voltage battery, the car must do a DC to DC voltage boost. In our Lucid Airs, this DC to DC voltage boost is limited to 50kW. Hence, our Lucid Airs are limited to 50kW on the existing Tesla Supercharger network.

Thanks for this explanation. Really helps clear up some misconceptions I had.

 

[niceguy]

The existing Tesla superchargers only supply 400-500 volts. Well below the 700V (Touring/Pure) and 900V (GT/Dream). In order to charge a higher voltage battery, the car must do a DC to DC voltage boost. In our Lucid Airs, this DC to DC voltage boost is limited to 50kW. Hence, our Lucid Airs are limited to 50kW on the existing Tesla Supercharger network.

Is it the reason that EA chargers are also too slow charging Lucid?

 

[niceguy]

The existing Tesla superchargers only supply 400-500 volts. Well below the 700V (Touring/Pure) and 900V (GT/Dream). In order to charge a higher voltage battery, the car must do a DC to DC voltage boost. In our Lucid Airs, this DC to DC voltage boost is limited to 50kW. Hence, our Lucid Airs are limited to 50kW on the existing Tesla Supercharger network.

Is it possible for Lucid to do software upgrade to improve it?

 

[Bobby]

Is it the reason that EA chargers are also too slow charging Lucid?

They are not.. theoretically. Speeds have been getting better and better over time. I got 175 on a 150 yesterday.

 

[Adnillien]

Is it the reason that EA chargers are also too slow charging Lucid?

No, EA chargers are 1000V so no DC to DC conversion.

 

[Adnillien]

Is it possible for Lucid to do software upgrade to improve it?

The DC to DC conversion is hardware limited so it is unlikely a software fix could change that.

 

[niceguy]

They are not.. theoretically. Speeds have been getting better and better over time. I got 175 on a 150 yesterday.

Lucky you, I would like to get that even with 350KW charger, no luck yet

 

[niceguy]

The DC to DC conversion is hardware limited so it is unlikely a software fix could change that.

Thanks for explanation

 

[Tâm]

The real question is how ChargePoint, EA, EVGo, etc. react to this. Will they start offering NACS on their chargers, in addition to CHAdeMO and CCS? That's a lot of cables.

Additional NACS support:

ABB E-mobility adds Tesla’s NACS to its EV chargers

ABB E-mobility announced that it will be adding Tesla's North American Charging Standard (NACS) to its electric vehicle chargers.

www.teslarati.com

 

[Tâm]

CCS will still be alive as long as the government funding is alive. The Whithouse just clarified today that It requires Tesla to have CCS to access the $7.5 billion pot:

White House welcomes Tesla to take advantage of federal dollars for chargers

The White House on Friday said electric-vehicle charging stations using Tesla standard plugs would be eligible for billions of dollars in federal subsidies as long as they included the U.S. charging standard connection, CCS, as well.

www.reuters.com

 

[EVCar]

CCS will still be alive as long as the government funding is alive. The Whithouse just clarified today that It requires Tesla to have CCS to access the $7.5 billion pot:

White House welcomes Tesla to take advantage of federal dollars for chargers

The White House on Friday said electric-vehicle charging stations using Tesla standard plugs would be eligible for billions of dollars in federal subsidies as long as they included the U.S. charging standard connection, CCS, as well.

www.reuters.com

Thanks for the link.
This is a step back for the high voltage platform.
Perhaps, less expensive and lower range EVs don‘t need to use high voltage and can benefit from this development, and that’s the goal for the partnership for these 3 players.

 

[Adnillien]

Thanks for the link.
This is a step back for the high voltage platform.
Perhaps, less expensive and lower range EVs don‘t need to use high voltage and can benefit from this development, and that’s the goal for the partnership for these 3 players.

NEVI funding requires 920V minimum. Tesla version 4 superchargers will be eligible. The White House comments did not change the standards.

 

[Tâm]

As expected, some numbers are starting to come in.

GM would save around $400 million.

Tesla gets $3 billion in the next coming years.

Tesla jumps as GM deal makes its charging network closer to US standard

Tesla shares closed 4% higher on Friday after General Motors joined Ford in agreeing to use its electric-vehicle charging network, a big win that analysts said could make Tesla Superchargers an industry standard in the United States.

www.reuters.com

 

[Rob Stark]

Customers with royalty-unpaid, no-deal-made, copy-cat NACS ports can still charge at a Tesla Supercharger because instead of going through the Rivian app, they can use Tesla App to charge and pay Tesla.

Those without royalty-unpaid, no-deal-made, copy-cat NACS ports currently have to use very few locations with Magic Dock.


Not right now. At a Magic Dock, non-Magic Dock customers (Tesla owners) pay less than Magic Dock owners.

I assume so too. That's the price for access.

That already happened. It started with free unlimited charging for life. Then very low price, then now quite a high price.

1) No they can't. Currently non-Teslas can only pay and charge at only limited number of magic-dog Superchargers. Copycat NACS port can plug into a non-magic doc Supercharger but they won't be able to charge.

2) Not right now, but with these Ford/GM deals going forward GM/Ford customers with adapters will pay the same price as Tesla customers.

3) Only a small percentage of the fleet is free charging for life. Currently, monies received for Supercharging does not pay for the electricity, maintenance, and expansion of the Supercharger Network. It is subsidized by general Tesla funds.

 

[Tâm]

1) No they can't. Currently non-Teslas can only pay and charge at only limited number of magic-dog Superchargers. Copycat NACS port can plug into a non-magic doc Supercharger but they won't be able to charge.

2) Not right now, but with these Ford/GM deals going forward GM/Ford customers with adapters will pay the same price as Tesla customers.

3) Only a small percentage of the fleet is free charging for life. Currently, monies received for Supercharging does not pay for the electricity, maintenance, and expansion of the Supercharger Network. It is subsidized by general Tesla funds.

Thanks for the explanations and corrections. I was just too presumptuous.