Lucid CEO teases mid-size in development

[Haggy]

He shouldn't be. I find his cars to be made of similar "Chinesium". I went to the Colorado Springs Tesla dealership, trying to make a decision between a Plaid or a Lucid Dream-P and when I saw all their Tesla cars in their lot, I asked if those (literally hundreds) were for sale. Salesman said no, those are being fixed. Decision made, and I couldn't be happier.

I would have gone with the Lucid, but not for that reason. If there were loads of cars sitting there unsold, waiting to be fixed, it might have been something as simple as a software update that was needed. If a software update is needed for something that NHTSA calls a recall, then they can't sell the car with an outstanding recall. And it might be for something that would be unlikely to affect you even if they could sell it.

 

[mikecronis]

I would have gone with the Lucid, but not for that reason. If there were loads of cars sitting there unsold, waiting to be fixed, it might have been something as simple as a software update that was needed. If a software update is needed for something that NHTSA calls a recall, then they can't sell the car with an outstanding recall. And it might be for something that would be unlikely to affect you even if they could sell it.

Of the 3 Tesla owners I knew, (one was a Model S, the other two were Model 3s), all of them software-bricked at least twice, the S-owner's bricked 4 times in the 6 years he had it.
All of them had door and trunk issues being locked-out repeatedly. All of them had interior pieces falling off or simple mechanical bits failing and needing to be replaced.
Of them, none had dead screens or charging issues, which is nice, but they were often stranded because the car just stopped suddenly and died unexpectedly.
All of them had much less range than predicted or advertised by about 30%. All of them treated their cars like babies in the same way non-driving Corvette owners do.
All of them had serious paint and rust issues.

I believe initially, Tesla was considered "perceived excellence", primarily due to cost with the added smug benefit of "perceived environmental superiority" moving from gas to coal plant energy, America resistant to nuclear-heating "steam generator" plants.

I took out an "S" plaid. I found it porpoised over hills and bumps with numb steering feel, disconnected from the road and numb braking as if playing a PS3/4/5 game with zero feedback. Such isolationism for people who don't really like driving has its merits to some.

I think Tesla needs to "get its act together" on quality control and maybe rethink suspension, but they don't cater to that crowd methinks. I'm a prior Corvette owner (100th Anniversary Grand Sport, Manual 6-spd, supercharged) and I've met the Corvette crowd that announces often, "I.... have a Corvette!" and pause and wait for crowd approval, and they don't drive them except to show n' shines and cars & coffee meets. Gross. The other end of the Corvette owner spectrum is camm'ed and boosted to near-detonation for drag-strip madness, which is another culture. I've never met any that actually tracked (they handle well at 1.11 lateral-g's). I suspect Viper owners are similar.

Car cultures are deep and interesting. Some are A-to-B folks and some want to "show off" and some want to "be on the edge" of performance; thousands of other sub-cultures. Wars between BMW and Mercedes, Ford and Chevy, Dodge and "the rest of the world". Rabid arguments over numbers of significance for hours, braking distances, lateral acceleration values, oil choices (forums blow up over that one, less-so here.. )

 

[Batteryman]

Of the 3 Tesla owners I knew, (one was a Model S, the other two were Model 3s), all of them software-bricked at least twice, the S-owner's bricked 4 times in the 6 years he had it.
All of them had door and trunk issues being locked-out repeatedly. All of them had interior pieces falling off or simple mechanical bits failing and needing to be replaced.
Of them, none had dead screens or charging issues, which is nice, but they were often stranded because the car just stopped suddenly and died unexpectedly.
All of them had much less range than predicted or advertised by about 30%. All of them treated their cars like babies in the same way non-driving Corvette owners do.
All of them had serious paint and rust issues.

I believe initially, Tesla was considered "perceived excellence", primarily due to cost with the added smug benefit of "perceived environmental superiority" moving from gas to coal plant energy, America resistant to nuclear-heating "steam generator" plants.

I took out an "S" plaid. I found it porpoised over hills and bumps with numb steering feel, disconnected from the road and numb braking as if playing a PS3/4/5 game with zero feedback. Such isolationism for people who don't really like driving has its merits to some.

I think Tesla needs to "get its act together" on quality control and maybe rethink suspension, but they don't cater to that crowd methinks. I'm a prior Corvette owner (100th Anniversary Grand Sport, Manual 6-spd, supercharged) and I've met the Corvette crowd that announces often, "I.... have a Corvette!" and pause and wait for crowd approval, and they don't drive them except to show n' shines and cars & coffee meets. Gross. The other end of the Corvette owner spectrum is camm'ed and boosted to near-detonation for drag-strip madness, which is another culture. I've never met any that actually tracked (they handle well at 1.11 lateral-g's). I suspect Viper owners are similar.

Car cultures are deep and interesting. Some are A-to-B folks and some want to "show off" and some want to "be on the edge" of performance; thousands of other sub-cultures. Wars between BMW and Mercedes, Ford and Chevy, Dodge and "the rest of the world". Rabid arguments over numbers of significance for hours, braking distances, lateral acceleration values, oil choices (forums blow up over that one, less-so here.. )

Took my model S to Sedona, had SUV's overtaking me in the hilly corners, I had no confidence in the handling of the car...that was when I decided to dump it, also considering a steering wheel vibration in cold weather. But that handling disaster was the last straw. Worst car I ever bought. And to think I gave Musk 7.5k for FSD that never materialized...what a scammer

 

[xponents]

Took my model S to Sedona, had SUV's overtaking me in the hilly corners, I had no confidence in the handling of the car...that was when I decided to dump it, also considering a steering wheel vibration in cold weather. But that handling disaster was the last straw. Worst car I ever bought. And to think I gave Musk 7.5k for FSD that never materialized...what a scammer

I think we both know the handling is not that bad... unless the SUVs in question include a Urus!

 

[Cosmo Cruz]

I have spent a lot of time in the back seats of my Lucid GT.
I use it as my private listening room when I need a music fix.
Also I sit in the back when the wife is driving our daughter to the train station in Hamilton (on her way back to NYC).
It's really nice back there... lounging and looking up thru the glass roof. I love to watch the clouds and birds.

I love my Lucid. May buy another any day now ...

 

[mikecronis]

I would agree the handling is not that bad, but there is unprojected feel-uncertainty. Where are my grip-limits? Are the front and rear turn-in connected? Am I stepping-out? What's the brake pedal and steering wheel telling me? It's almost all visual on a Tesla; no resistance to controls, similar to a 1980's Buick with over-boosted "electraglide" steering and road-feel. I found the suspension to be floaty and then suddenly violently harsh in odd places that make no sense.

The Tesla cars are the opposite of the Lotus Elise.

 

[hmp10]

I would agree the handling is not that bad, but there is unprojected feel-uncertainty. Where are my grip-limits? Are the front and rear turn-in connected? Am I stepping-out? What's the brake pedal and steering wheel telling me? It's almost all visual on a Tesla; no resistance to controls, similar to a 1980's Buick with over-boosted "electraglide" steering and road-feel. I found the suspension to be floaty and then suddenly violently harsh in odd places that make no sense.

The Tesla cars are the opposite of the Lotus Elise.

I have similar conclusions. The difference between driving our Air Dream Performance and our Model S Plaid really shows how much more sophisticated the Lucid setup is -- not to mention having a much more compliant ride in addition to notably better control.

 

[mikecronis]

I have similar conclusions. The difference between driving our Air Dream Performance and our Model S Plaid really shows how much more sophisticated the Lucid setup is -- not to mention having a much more compliant ride in addition to notably better control.

I noticed that too. I think the steel-springs and Bilstein suspension remind me a lot of how several Lotus cars respond; dialed-in very very carefully and precisely; perfectly. I can tell a LOT of time was spent on that component, not as an afterthought like another car company might "slap on" some sort of parts-bin, pre-made, one-size-fits-none suspension setup.
It feels like the suspension was crafted over years, not days or months. This is why I have such admiration for Peter because so much heart was put into that.

 

[hmp10]

I think the steel-springs and Bilstein suspension remind me a lot of how several Lotus cars respond; dialed-in very very carefully and precisely; perfectly.

It's interesting that Jason Cammisa also draws parallels between Lucid's suspension characteristics and the glory days of Jaguar suspensions. Rawlinson's time as Chief Engineer at Jaguar and as head of Advanced Engineering at Lotus really comes through in what Lucid is doing today.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

I think we both know the handling is not that bad... unless the SUVs in question include a Urus!

Having driven both the Model S and Model 3P frequently, I found the M3P to be far more of a driver’s car than the S…except in a straight line. Once you get into the curves the M3P stays fairly well planted (on the 20” wheels with good rubber). The S? I found it unpredictable and sometimes downright scary. It’s in a different class than the Air (and even Tesla’s own M3P) by far — and not in a good way!

 

[Blue Lectroid]

It's interesting that Jason Cammisa also draws parallels between Lucid's suspension characteristics and the glory days of Jaguar suspensions. Rawlinson's time as Chief Engineer at Jaguar and as head of Advanced Engineering at Lotus really comes through in what Lucid is doing today.

I had the good fortune of driving two of the storied XJ series cars that JC references (they were my Dad’s at the time and these were the first cars I ever drove). I never realized at that time just how magnificent and natural feeling the steering and ride characteristics of those cars were until much later. After two XJ6’s and an XJ12 he moved onto the XJS and both he and my Mom did not like that car as much coming after the sedans as it did

I drove the XJ12 only once (illegally, before I got my license), but had some decent time in his last XJ6. There definitely is an uncanny resemblance with my Air GT. The AGT takes the Jag’s level of road manners refinement to another level, of course, but there is definitely a similarity.

Funny…Dad was always a car guy. The first several years of my life we lived in the second floor apartment of a two family house right next to a lumber yard and the railroad tracks. Dad’s daily driver (and his only car) was a used Ferrari that was in the shop as often as our driveway. Priorities, LOL…

 

[RAF42]

Interesting comments about the Model S handling. When I had my Model S (6 years, 2018 100D) I found the handling to be excellent. It pretty much went where I pointed it and when taking corners hard and fast it rarely ever slipped. The 2018 was just before they "upgraded" the air suspension for a better ride, no idea if that's a factor.

That said, ride, wind noise, rattling, fit/finish, general quality were substantially inferior to my Lucid, and I'm ecstatic my Tesla is gone and replaced with the Air. But it did (mine at least) handle well.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

The two Model S’s that I have driven hard were my neighbor’s early P100D and then a 2023 Plaid. My comments about not liking them in the turns refer to those two versions of the car…

 

[hmp10]

Interesting comments about the Model S handling. When I had my Model S (6 years, 2018 100D) I found the handling to be excellent. It pretty much went where I pointed it and when taking corners hard and fast it rarely ever slipped. The 2018 was just before they "upgraded" the air suspension for a better ride, no idea if that's a factor.

That said, ride, wind noise, rattling, fit/finish, general quality were substantially inferior to my Lucid, and I'm ecstatic my Tesla is gone and replaced with the Air. But it did (mine at least) handle well.

Our first Tesla was a 2015 Model S P90D with the coil spring suspension. Our current Tesla is a 2021 Model S Plaid with air suspension. It rides more harshly, is less planted, and is less predictable than the earlier Model S.

Interestingly, I suspect that the coil spring suspension on the 2015 model was a continuation of the suspension that Peter Rawlinson had overseen when he was Chief Engineer of the Model S. Rawlinson left Tesla in January 2012, and the first modification to the Model S suspension came later that year with the introduction of an adjustable-height air suspension option. It is the evolution of that system that is on today's Model S.

 

[RAF42]

Our first Tesla was a 2015 Model S P90D with the coil spring suspension. Our current Tesla is a 2021 Model S Plaid with air suspension. It rides more harshly, is less planted, and is less predictable than the earlier Model S.

Interestingly, I suspect that the coil spring suspension on the 2015 model was a continuation of the suspension that Peter Rawlinson had overseen when he was Chief Engineer of the Model S. Rawlinson left Tesla in January 2012, and the first modification to the Model S suspension came later that year with the introduction of an adjustable-height air suspension option. It is the evolution of that system that is on today's Model S.

Interesting, when they added "adaptive" air suspension post 2018 to improve ride (which by your comments did not), maybe the handling suffered too?

One of the only things I miss about the S was that it could geofence suspension height. I had it set to raise up for two places, a local grocery store where I would really scrape the underside trying to get in the parking lot, and my driveway, which would scrape to a lesser extent. In my Air I have to take a very specific path out of my driveway to not scrape, but have gotten use to it (and don't really want to put those rubber things in to prevent that). Very satisfied with the Lucid suspension I find vastly superior, but that was a nice feature.

 

[hmp10]

Interesting, when they added "adaptive" air suspension post 2018 to improve ride (which by your comments did not), maybe the handling suffered too?

The Tesla handles okay in normal driving. The sense I get is that the Plaid is overpowered relative to the suspension's capabilities, as its handling quirks really step forward in more spirited driving. The irony is that we can actually make more use of our Air Dream P's power, despite its slower nominal acceleration numbers, because the front end of the Tesla comes loose so quickly under hard acceleration. The Air is also notably less twitchy in quick lateral maneuvers.

The ride in our Plaid is definitely harsher and more choppy than in our earlier coil-spring suspension P90D. Our Air rides more like a compliant but well-controlled BMW or Audi, and the Tesla rides like a buckboard on choppy pavement.

I'm just no longer impressed by Tesla claims on any front. For example, I was disappointed when Lucid backed away from its early plan to have active noise cancellation in the Air. I talked to Zak Edson, VP of Sales & Service, about this before the car hit the market. He said that they just couldn't get the system to deliver. They found that the speakers had to be located very precisely in relation to the ear, and that was something they just couldn't do in a car (as opposed to headphones where these systems work best). He also said that cancelling tire noise effectively required picking up the signal near the tire, and that was impractical.

Our Plaid touted its new active noise cancellation. However, the software was not ready at delivery, and the feature was only activated a few months after we got the car. We could tell absolutely no difference in interior sound levels -- which remained considerably higher than in our Air without noise cancellation.

Same thing with an OTA suspension update on the Tesla. No detectable difference in ride or handling.

Lucid engineering seems focused on eliminating issues at their source in the hardware insofar as possible. Tesla seems to put more emphasis on trying to use software to cover up issues in the hardware.

It's why a Lucid coil-spring suspension outperforms a software-controlled Tesla air suspension. It's why a Lucid cabin without active noise cancellation is quieter than a Tesla cabin with active noise cancellation. It's why, with over 30,000 miles on both cars, our Tesla has structural squeaks and groans in the rear and our Lucid is as solid as a rock.

 

[Lucken]

Interesting comments about the Model S handling. When I had my Model S (6 years, 2018 100D) I found the handling to be excellent. It pretty much went where I pointed it and when taking corners hard and fast it rarely ever slipped. The 2018 was just before they "upgraded" the air suspension for a better ride, no idea if that's a factor.

That said, ride, wind noise, rattling, fit/finish, general quality were substantially inferior to my Lucid, and I'm ecstatic my Tesla is gone and replaced with the Air. But it did (mine at least) handle well.

Precisely my experience with my 2017 MS. Of course the self driving feature at the time did try to kill me on a few occasions.

 

[Bus Driver]

Having driven both the Model S and Model 3P frequently, I found the M3P to be far more of a driver’s car than the S…except in a straight line. Once you get into the curves the M3P stays fairly well planted (on the 20” wheels with good rubber). The S? I found it unpredictable and sometimes downright scary. It’s in a different class than the Air (and even Tesla’s own M3P) by far — and not in a good way!

We used to own a March 2017-build Tesla Model S75D. No air suspension, just the normal coil suspension set up. It was my dad’s car until he decided to give up driving.

I remember taking that car through the windy-twisties of San Diego County’s back country. The car played along, but only because you asked. Capable enough, but I never got the sense that it was happy under spirited driving.

My Air GT on the other hand, through that same stretch of mountain road, is a temptress and a vixen. Tempting me, goading me to push it to the limits, which I sensed were far higher than my very pedestrian driving skills. My GT very much invites spirited driving, compels it even.

 

[mikecronis]

I had the good fortune of driving two of the storied XJ series cars that JC references (they were my Dad’s at the time and these were the first cars I ever drove). I never realized at that time just how magnificent and natural feeling the steering and ride characteristics of those cars were until much later. After two XJ6’s and an XJ12 he moved onto the XJS and both he and my Mom did not like that car as much coming after the sedans as it did

I drove the XJ12 only once (illegally, before I got my license), but had some decent time in his last XJ6. There definitely is an uncanny resemblance with my Air GT. The AGT takes the Jag’s level of road manners refinement to another level, of course, but there is definitely a similarity.

Funny…Dad was always a car guy. The first several years of my life we lived in the second floor apartment of a two family house right next to a lumber yard and the railroad tracks. Dad’s daily driver (and his only car) was a used Ferrari that was in the shop as often as our driveway. Priorities, LOL…

I find Italians make the most beautiful garbage.

 

[mikecronis]

Just watched a Bloomberg discussion with our good man Peter Rawlinson and he mentioned the mid-sized option is "shhheduled for start of production late '26" for "$48 to $50,000 product; that's the big one for us, and many of my engineering team are working full [t'chat] on that right now." with "assiduous focus to cost, and that's what my team is focused on right now."

I agree with him 100%. I'd work for him.

I'm sure everyone's seen it already as it's a month or two old by now. Late to the party as-usual.