J1772 emulation for V2L?

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Idly pondering the lack of V2L, I went down the rabbit hole of what it would take and why we don't have it yet.

As some of you know, I've tried the Lucid V2V 'RangeXchange' cable with a third-party J1772-to-NEMA adapter off of Amazon but it didn't work. And nor would it - it's a 'dumb' adapter that doesn't pretend to be an EV. So then I started reading up on the J1772 standard and what it would take to emulate a second EV on the end of the RangeXChange adapter. Turns out it wouldn't take much, and a couple of people have already done most of the work.

Here's one example:


And here's another:


Both are probably more than we need, but with a bit of nifty soldering one should be able to piggyback an 'EV emulator' like those above onto an adapter like this one, in order to convince the RangeXChange that there's an EV on the other end and thus to turn on the power.

Theoretically, of course. I'm reasonably handy with a soldering iron but, given the warranty issues and general potential for death by electrocution, I'm unlikely to try this. But it doesn't seem overly complicated.
 
Paging @segbrk since this seems up his alley and I’m out of town
 
Idly pondering the lack of V2L, I went down the rabbit hole of what it would take and why we don't have it yet.

As some of you know, I've tried the Lucid V2V 'RangeXchange' cable with a third-party J1772-to-NEMA adapter off of Amazon but it didn't work. And nor would it - it's a 'dumb' adapter that doesn't pretend to be an EV. So then I started reading up on the J1772 standard and what it would take to emulate a second EV on the end of the RangeXChange adapter. Turns out it wouldn't take much, and a couple of people have already done most of the work.

Here's one example:


And here's another:


Both are probably more than we need, but with a bit of nifty soldering one should be able to piggyback an 'EV emulator' like those above onto an adapter like this one, in order to convince the RangeXChange that there's an EV on the other end and thus to turn on the power.
This should work great, though the Air will provide 240VAC without the neutral connection needed to gain access to two 120V legs. To have a normal 120VAC split phase output including neutral, you'd need to add a suitable autotransformer such as is used on inverters in solar PV installation.

However, I'm not trying it on my own car.
 
Just had a power outage and was thinking about this again, which led me to:


and


The first one looks like it should talk EV and gives you a regular 240VAC plug. The second is actually a transformer that gives you 110V plugs. That's why it's huge and pricey.
Now the question is just who's brave enough to try either of those. A lot of devices will happily take 240VAC, but definitely read the label before trying that. In theory you could use this to supply one of those home power banks like the Anker F3800 for a crude V2H...
 
Just had a power outage and was thinking about this again, which led me to:


and


The first one looks like it should talk EV and gives you a regular 240VAC plug. The second is actually a transformer that gives you 110V plugs. That's why it's huge and pricey.
Now the question is just who's brave enough to try either of those. A lot of devices will happily take 240VAC, but definitely read the label before trying that. In theory you could use this to supply one of those home power banks like the Anker F3800 for a crude V2H...
This looks like it should work well.
 
This looks like it should work well.
Tried it … it doesn’t. Works fine with my Tesla Wall Connector / TeslaTap combo, but I suspect the TeslaTap is performing the necessary handshake.
 
Tried it … it doesn’t. Works fine with my Tesla Wall Connector / TeslaTap combo, but I suspect the TeslaTap is performing the necessary handshake.
The RangeXChange/mobile cable combo didn't think it was plugged into an EV to charge?
 
Nope, and the “LUCID” text on the charging unit lit up red.
 
Tried it … it doesn’t. Works fine with my Tesla Wall Connector / TeslaTap combo, but I suspect the TeslaTap is performing the necessary handshake.
so...... what if you use an J1772 to Tesla adapter and then plug that into a teslaTap?;) Vehicle J1772 -> J1772-NACS adapter -> TeslaTap back to J1772 -> J1772 to NEMA 5-15
 
the problem/complexity with _ANY_ personal power generation/source in a residential context is the following…

during a power/grid outage you MUST disconnect your home from the grid - so that no power you are generating flows "backwards" on the grid for several reasons:
  • safety - power companies don't want you electrocuting their workers while they are fixing the grid
  • brownouts - there is no flow control on your meter - if you start providing power to your home-grid - your neighbor's homes will also see "power" and start trying ot use it - it's unlikely you have enough power to provide for your entire neighborhood - so your wimpy power sources will trip into "brownout" (like what happens when you overload a generator in an RV) - and power will come and go
    • not to mention your neighbors are now consuming your batteries's capacity and you'll be sucked dry pretty quickly…
so it does not matter the power source: gas generator, EV, Solar, home batteries, Wind etc…if the grid is down and you have your own power source you have to disconnect from the main grid

this is one of many reasons why Solar panels drop offline during a grid outage…there are others - but you get the point.

I have Solar+Batteries - and they work great - and when you have such a system installed the "key component" is the auto-disconnect switch that happens in 0.25-2 seconds from losing the grid - now that the entire home is "isolated" from the grid (and you won't be killing random electrical workers) you can provide power from your own local sources…

I writing this right now on my solar+battery power system in Santa Cruz, CA where I'm in a grid outage as we speak…lost power at 8:30 am this morning, auto-cut off switch tripped - and I've been running my home on a combination of Solar+batteries all day…

I've been doing EV's since 2011. Solar since 2007, and home batteries since 2019…

99.99999% of North American residential homes are not setup to be isolated from the grid during an outage - and depending on the home and it's electrical panel it ranges from trival to really expensive to get the home "ready" to have this sort of back up system…in this context an EV with V2H capabilities is no different than solar panels or a gas-generator - before it can provide power to your home - the home has to be isolated from the larger neighborhood grid…there are 3 ways to do this:
  1. throw the main breaker on your power input from the power company
  2. install a "manual" throw/cut-off switch
  3. install an automated switch
#1 requires no changes to your home electrical panel - but has obvious draw backs
#2 is slightly better, but still requires you to throw the switch and then "start" the local power source (generator, EV, batteries, solar, wind, hydro, kids on a treadmill)
#3 is best, but you then also want this system integrated with your various power-sources to automatically start/stop them based on grid status - this sort of integration is straight-forward and technically feasible - but at the moment there are few if any "standards" to interoperate with - so they are all be-spoke/custom

anyone who has a home generator with an auto-cutover switch already has such a system in their home…
anyone who has Tesla Powerwalls has such a system (or other residential batteries, enphase comes to mind)
Ford Lightening Pro EVSE can power your home - their install included the grid-isolation cut off
etc…

the final complexity is also in most homes there are circuits you'd like to isolate from the backup powersource so they don't drain your resources during an outage - so there is certain amount of redesign for individual breakers that you want to backup and those that you don't want powered during an outage…

the most straightforward approach to this is two separate circuit breaker panels:
  • one panel contains all the normal home circuits you want to have power during an outage
  • 2nd panel contains all the home circuits you don't want to have power during an outage
  • install the cutoff switch between the two panels and the electrical meter
in my personal case I have: Main-Residential-Grid ---> Electrical Meter ---> Subpanel with EV chargers +Main-Home-Breaker ---> Cutoff Switch ---> Home-Power-Management-Controller ----> Batteries ---> Solar ---> All-other-home circuits

during a grid outage the "cut-off switch" isolates my home from the residential-main-grid - and all the stuff 'behind' the cut off swtich gets power from batteries+solar - while the EV chargers since they are "in front of" the cut off switch do not get any power so my eV's charging overnight do not drain my home's batteries before I wake up…

I've given the whole V2H thing a LOT of thought - it could work and work great and would be wonderful - but the simple fact is that there are no-home's that come "ready made" to have a local isolated power source (of any kind) and a simple automated-relay-power-management system to trigger it all during an outage…

this in my mind is the _MAIN_ impediment to V2H systems - the cost to rework everyone's home to have this system "inserted" into their home - and the variable nature since no two homes in North America match a standard design - the cost can range from trival to easy - to extensive/expensive/prohibitive.

Example: I live in an HOA complex with 97 homes built in the mid-1980's - the main electrical panel for each of these 97 homes are similar/identical to each other - with the Meter/Main panel outside the home in a small equipment closet along with the gas meter…all of these homes passed building codes for the time period they were built. But would not pass today - because the gas meter is too close to the electrical panel. Due to local county ordences if you _TOUCH_ the existing electrical panel for any reason (repair, remodel, upgrade, solar) you must bring it up to current building codes - and the requires redoing the home's entire electrical system to have a new panel installed at least 6 feet away from the gas meter - and minimum cost for this sort of change depending on the home, it's floor plan, available outside wall space, etc…starts at about $12,000 _BEFORE_ you've done anything at all…

the "problem" with V2H systems is the redesign/upgrade/reworking of a home's residential power system to integrate the grid-isolation-switch - and the lack of any sort of common design in millions of homes/appartments/condo's - so each home that gets this done is "bespoke" and costs are highly variable.

once you have the residential "home" issue handled - next you have to integration - I'd need my EV to work with my Solar - and for a small fraction of owners like myself I'd want the system to integrate with my existing batteries - and so now we need all the different vendors to agree on how these separate power sources interoperate with each other…

this is all feasible - but it's not just a matter of a bi-directional EVSE - there are a few other things that need to be in place before the EVSE can let power flow from the vehicle to your home…

my $0.02 YMMV.
 
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to address the cost of 'retrofit/retrodesign' for the whole cut-off swtich I've seen a design from Tesla where you move the auto-cut-off swtich functionality into the Electrical meter - take out the existing meter with no flow control (it's bi-directional) - insert the new meter that has the ability to be 'tiggered' to isolate the home from the grid…so that would solve the problem of "reworking" all the homes to have the required/essential cut-off functionality…
  1. I don't know why this isn't the way it's currently being done
  2. I suspect getting all the separate utilities to "accept" this replacement meter is an impediment
  3. the new meter would have to match their automated billing/reporting standards
  4. all the homes power management systems would have to know how to talk to this "switch"
  5. this does not address the issue of redesigning the home's electrical load to have some powered and non-powered during an outage - but this is not strictly required
a swappable meter/w-cutoff switch would make this whole thing much much easier and less costly to retrofit into people's homes…but so far it's not being used/deployed and I don't know why.
 
this is the sort of design you need for your home if you're going to have _ANY_ power sources during an outage…there are few if any homes where this sort of rework of their existing electrical system is cheap…

 
in the picture below - the "powerwall" in blue is actually _ANY_ power source (EV, generator, solar, wind, hydro…) and implied in the "blue powerwall" photo is also an energy controller that manages the system - so if your Lucid is the "powerwall" in the picture- you still need to rework your home's electrical system to match this diagram - and then you need a controller that knows how to trip the cut-off switch and tell the PowerWall/Lucid to provide power during an outage.

straight forward, not hard, easy really - but few if any systems have done the work - and first you have to get the residential home's system to look like this diagram…the items in "blue" are what is being added to most existing homes - again your Lucid/EV would be the "powerwall" in this picture…

and then there is what to do when you unplug your car and drop your home into darkness LOL

IMG_2441.webp
 
the problem/complexity with _ANY_ personal power generation/source in a residential context is the following…

during a power/grid outage you MUST disconnect your home from the grid - so that no power you are generating flows "backwards" on the grid for several reasons:
  • safety - power companies don't want you electrocuting their workers while they are fixing the grid
  • brownouts - there is no flow control on your meter - if you start providing power to your home-grid - your neighbor's homes will also see "power" and start trying ot use it - it's unlikely you have enough power to provide for your entire neighborhood - so your wimpy power sources will trip into "brownout" (like what happens when you overload a generator in an RV) - and power will come and go
    • not to mention your neighbors are now consuming your batteries's capacity and you'll be sucked dry pretty quickly…
so it does not matter the power source: gas generator, EV, Solar, home batteries, Wind etc…if the grid is down and you have your own power source you have to disconnect from the main grid

this is one of many reasons why Solar panels drop offline during a grid outage…there are others - but you get the point.

I have Solar+Batteries - and they work great - and when you have such a system installed the "key component" is the auto-disconnect switch that happens in 0.25-2 seconds from losing the grid - now that the entire home is "isolated" from the grid (and you won't be killing random electrical workers) you can provide power from your own local sources…

I writing this right now on my solar+battery power system in Santa Cruz, CA where I'm in a grid outage as we speak…lost power at 8:30 am this morning, auto-cut off switch tripped - and I've been running my home on a combination of Solar+batteries all day…

I've been doing EV's since 2011. Solar since 2007, and home batteries since 2019…

99.99999% of North American residential homes are not setup to be isolated from the grid during an outage - and depending on the home and it's electrical panel it ranges from trival to really expensive to get the home "ready" to have this sort of back up system…in this context an EV with V2H capabilities is no different than solar panels or a gas-generator - before it can provide power to your home - the home has to be isolated from the larger neighborhood grid…there are 3 ways to do this:
  1. throw the main breaker on your power input from the power company
  2. install a "manual" throw/cut-off switch
  3. install an automated switch
#1 requires no changes to your home electrical panel - but has obvious draw backs
#2 is slightly better, but still requires you to throw the switch and then "start" the local power source (generator, EV, batteries, solar, wind, hydro, kids on a treadmill)
#3 is best, but you then also want this system integrated with your various power-sources to automatically start/stop them based on grid status - this sort of integration is straight-forward and technically feasible - but at the moment there are few if any "standards" to interoperate with - so they are all be-spoke/custom

anyone who has a home generator with an auto-cutover switch already has such a system in their home…
anyone who has Tesla Powerwalls has such a system (or other residential batteries, enphase comes to mind)
Ford Lightening Pro EVSE can power your home - their install included the grid-isolation cut off
etc…

the final complexity is also in most homes there are circuits you'd like to isolate from the backup powersource so they don't drain your resources during an outage - so there is certain amount of redesign for individual breakers that you want to backup and those that you don't want powered during an outage…

the most straightforward approach to this is two separate circuit breaker panels:
  • one panel contains all the normal home circuits you want to have power during an outage
  • 2nd panel contains all the home circuits you don't want to have power during an outage
  • install the cutoff switch between the two panels and the electrical meter
in my personal case I have: Main-Residential-Grid ---> Electrical Meter ---> Subpanel with EV chargers +Main-Home-Breaker ---> Cutoff Switch ---> Home-Power-Management-Controller ----> Batteries ---> Solar ---> All-other-home circuits

during a grid outage the "cut-off switch" isolates my home from the residential-main-grid - and all the stuff 'behind' the cut off swtich gets power from batteries+solar - while the EV chargers since they are "in front of" the cut off switch do not get any power so my eV's charging overnight do not drain my home's batteries before I wake up…

I've given the whole V2H thing a LOT of thought - it could work and work great and would be wonderful - but the simple fact is that there are no-home's that come "ready made" to have a local isolated power source (of any kind) and a simple automated-relay-power-management system to trigger it all during an outage…

this in my mind is the _MAIN_ impediment to V2H systems - the cost to rework everyone's home to have this system "inserted" into their home - and the variable nature since no two homes in North America match a standard design - the cost can range from trival to easy - to extensive/expensive/prohibitive.

Example: I live in an HOA complex with 97 homes built in the mid-1980's - the main electrical panel for each of these 97 homes are similar/identical to each other - with the Meter/Main panel outside the home in a small equipment closet along with the gas meter…all of these homes passed building codes for the time period they were built. But would not pass today - because the gas meter is too close to the electrical panel. Due to local county ordences if you _TOUCH_ the existing electrical panel for any reason (repair, remodel, upgrade, solar) you must bring it up to current building codes - and the requires redoing the home's entire electrical system to have a new panel installed at least 6 feet away from the gas meter - and minimum cost for this sort of change depending on the home, it's floor plan, available outside wall space, etc…starts at about $12,000 _BEFORE_ you've done anything at all…

the "problem" with V2H systems is the redesign/upgrade/reworking of a home's residential power system to integrate the grid-isolation-switch - and the lack of any sort of common design in millions of homes/appartments/condo's - so each home that gets this done is "bespoke" and costs are highly variable.

once you have the residential "home" issue handled - next you have to integration - I'd need my EV to work with my Solar - and for a small fraction of owners like myself I'd want the system to integrate with my existing batteries - and so now we need all the different vendors to agree on how these separate power sources interoperate with each other…

this is all feasible - but it's not just a matter of a bi-directional EVSE - there are a few other things that need to be in place before the EVSE can let power flow from the vehicle to your home…

my $0.02 YMMV.
Awesome post! My house is similarly equipped as yours…solar, backup batteries (40kWh), dual EV chargers. V2H or V2L should both be able to be implemented here once Lucid sorts the software on their side, we get a bidirectional charger and another “brain” / controller that can manage all of the handoffs and power source management (from existing batteries or from car, etc.)…
 
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