Challenges To Charging During The Summer Months On Our Home EVSE

[DTA]

Hey LUCID owners & enthusiast!
For those of you that took delivery of your Air prior to April 2022 and installed an EVSE at your home you are likely to have experienced the 'dredded circuit challenge' that occurs as our desert temps rise during the summer months. And, if you haven't then I [along with others] would greatly appreciate you weighing in on this thread. This is my second AZ summer as a AGT owner (as I took delivery of my AGT in early Q4 22) and before we could cross over into the summer season this year, we began experiencing the same heat challenges as last year due to the +110 degree temps.
As noted in a thread last year, I mentioned we installed a dedicated circuit (with all the appropriate components to compliment both the Juicebox EVSE and our AGT) and we [still] experienced heat factors causing the circuit to trip. As many of us are living through a second and/or third summer (with some experiencing this for the first time) here in the AZ, I am interested in learning how my fellow LUCID owners have maintained their equipment on the circuit that charges your Air. I have checked my dedicated circuit from the 50 amp [SquareD] breaker through to the Hubble 240 socket, the Juicebox EVSE power connector & cable, along with the Juicebox supply cable [to the AGT] and with the exception of the breaker all seems to be functioning properly. I am changing out the breaker as it will not [fully] reset. I suspect this is attributed to the excessive heat (as it is designed to fail and protect everything on the circuit).

For those of you who have dedicated circuits for an EVSE and have experienced 'heat failures' during past summers that caused you to troubleshoot the power failure point along the circuit, my questions are...

1. Do you use the LUCID [mobile] EVSE provided with your car? Or do you use a different brand (e.g., Juicebox, Charge-Point, etc.)?
2. Have you had to change out the 50 amp breaker your EVSE sets on since installing it?
3. Have you had to change out the 240V socket your EVSE is plugged into?
4. Have you installed a ventilation and/or a garage cooling system (i.e., split AC unit, etc.) to reduce the heat in your garage?

With the excessive heat temps we experience in AZ I am curious to learn what the [possible] maintenance & replacement costs for our residential charging circuit may amount to each year as we look at ensuring summer season home charging capability.

A note: last summer when the heat caused our circuit to falter I defaulted to charging at EA for 3.5 weeks until the circuit was repaired and I was able to charge. And although it's great to have the luxury of charging for free on EAs level 3 network - my reality tells me there are several more EVs [today] using those same EA chargers in the local area. And having to stand in line [even during the coolest time of the AZ triple digit days] to charge could increase tensions and cause other social challenges that we've seen occur in other markets across the country. I'd like to avoid those situations at all cost and keep my level 3 charging experiences to those while traveling between states.

I appreciate your comments & feedback and hope the information helps to solve a common challenge we all deal with in the AZ (and other excessive heat markets). Thanks! DTA

 

[BS8899]

Hey LUCID owners & enthusiast!
For those of you that took delivery of your Air prior to April 2022 and installed an EVSE at your home you are likely to have experienced the 'dredded circuit challenge' that occurs as our desert temps rise during the summer months. And, if you haven't then I [along with others] would greatly appreciate you weighing in on this thread. This is my second AZ summer as a AGT owner (as I took delivery of my AGT in early Q4 22) and before we could cross over into the summer season this year, we began experiencing the same heat challenges as last year due to the +110 degree temps.
As noted in a thread last year, I mentioned we installed a dedicated circuit (with all the appropriate components to compliment both the Juicebox EVSE and our AGT) and we [still] experienced heat factors causing the circuit to trip. As many of us are living through a second and/or third summer (with some experiencing this for the first time) here in the AZ, I am interested in learning how my fellow LUCID owners have maintained their equipment on the circuit that charges your Air. I have checked my dedicated circuit from the 50 amp [SquareD] breaker through to the Hubble 240 socket, the Juicebox EVSE power connector & cable, along with the Juicebox supply cable [to the AGT] and with the exception of the breaker all seems to be functioning properly. I am changing out the breaker as it will not [fully] reset. I suspect this is attributed to the excessive heat (as it is designed to fail and protect everything on the circuit).

For those of you who have dedicated circuits for an EVSE and have experienced 'heat failures' during past summers that caused you to troubleshoot the power failure point along the circuit, my questions are...

1. • Do you use the LUCID [mobile] EVSE provided with your car? Or do you use a different brand (e.g., Juicebox, Charge-Point, etc.)?
   • Have you had to change out the 50 amp breaker your EVSE sets on since installing it?
   • Have you had to change out the 240V socket your EVSE is plugged into?
   • Have you installed a ventilation and/or a garage cooling system (i.e., split AC unit, etc.) to reduce the heat in your garage?

With the excessive heat temps we experience in AZ I am curious to learn what the [possible] maintenance & replacement costs for our residential charging circuit may amount to each year as we look at ensuring summer season home charging capability.

A note: last summer when the heat caused our circuit to falter I defaulted to charging at EA for 3.5 weeks until the circuit was repaired and I was able to charge. And although it's great to have the luxury of charging for free on EAs level 3 network - my reality tells me there are several more EVs [today] using those same EA chargers in the local area. And having to stand in line [even during the coolest time of the AZ triple digit days] to charge could increase tensions and cause other social challenges that we've seen occur in other markets across the country. I'd like to avoid those situations at all cost and keep my level 3 charging experiences to those while traveling between states.

I appreciate your comments & feedback and hope the information helps to solve a common challenge we all deal with in the AZ (and other excessive heat markets). Thanks! DTA

I have two Hubble 240 receptacles in my garage (in Paradise Valley, AZ) and I often charge two EVs simultaneously (Lucid AGT, Rivian R1S, and a Honda Clarity PHEV). I have not had problems with them.

I am guessing.....aside from the breaker size, what about self-heating in the wires? What wire size do you have running from the breakers to the receptable? Do the wires feel hot? (mine are in EMT conduits). Can you adjust the max current on your EVSE?

 

[BS8899]

I have two Hubble 240 receptacles in my garage (in Paradise Valley, AZ) and I often charge two EVs simultaneously (Lucid AGT, Rivian R1S, and a Honda Clarity PHEV). I have not had problems with them.

I am guessing.....aside from the breaker size, what about self-heating in the wires? What wire size do you have running from the breakers to the receptable? Do the wires feel hot? (mine are in EMT conduits). Can you adjust the max current on your EVSE?

Also, how long is the run from the electrical panel/sub-panel to the Hubble receptacles?

 

[DTA]

Also, how long is the run from the electrical panel/sub-panel to the Hubble receptacles?

Although I don't recall the size of the wires used I can confirm they are to spec and run through conduit. The run from the panel to the 240V outlet is ~60' (as a straight shot). The conduit is not hot at any point along the run (and that accounts for external in addition to internal areas). I am of the belief that irrespective of which brand of breaker we use it'll have to be replaced on occasion ..or at least until we cool our garage down to a point that reduces the chance of the receptacle becoming the hottest fault point across the circuit.

Even with a heat vent installed to draw the heat out of our garage, the temps rise to a point where it is [still] hotter in the garage than it is outside [during the latter part of the day/s] and this is what [I believe] is causing the receptacle to heat and reach a temperature that causes the breaker to trip. The question is.. without installing a split AC system, is the presumed cost [during the summer months] the replacement of a 50 amp breaker plus the challenge of having to charge on the [local] commercial network? I think I know the answer.. I was curious if others across the Valley of the Sun had reached a similar conclusion.

 

[BS8899]

Although I don't recall the size of the wires used I can confirm they are to spec and run through conduit. The run from the panel to the 240V outlet is ~60' (as a straight shot). The conduit is not hot at any point along the run (and that accounts for external in addition to internal areas). I am of the belief that irrespective of which brand of breaker we use it'll have to be replaced on occasion ..or at least until we cool our garage down to a point that reduces the chance of the receptacle becoming the hottest fault point across the circuit.

Even with a heat vent installed to draw the heat out of our garage, the temps rise to a point where it is [still] hotter in the garage than it is outside [during the latter part of the day/s] and this is what [I believe] is causing the receptacle to heat and reach a temperature that causes the breaker to trip. The question is.. without installing a split AC system, is the presumed cost [during the summer months] the replacement of a 50 amp breaker plus the challenge of having to charge on the [local] commercial network? I think I know the answer.. I was curious if others across the Valley of the Sun had reached a similar conclusion.

What EVSE are you using? Can you adjust the max current through it? If so, that's the best solution. It will take a bit longer to charge but you won't have to rewire ($$$), constant tripping of the breakers, or worse yet, have a fire!

 

[Pwmac]

I received my car 8/5/2022. Have lived in 2 different houses with 14-50 outlets on a dedicated 50 amp breaker and have not had issues in either house. I have cracked the door a few inches in the past if the garage is hot but haven't yet this year.

 

[Adnillien]

50A breakers come in two different widths, narrow and wide. If you have room for the wider breaker in you panel use that because it has two contacts per leg of the 240V circuit to the bus bar in the back of the panel instead on on contact per leg. That will significantly reduce the heating that occurs within the breaker. The suggestion to turn the current from 40A to 32A in your EVSE is also a good suggestion.

 

[DTA]

What EVSE are you using? Can you adjust the max current through it? If so, that's the best solution. It will take a bit longer to charge but you won't have to rewire ($$$), constant tripping of the breakers, or worse yet, have a fire!

I have installed the Juicebox [smart EVSE], and the current is adjustable. Before settling on that option I wanted to verify whether any [other] AZ owners were experiencing the same [or similar] challenges. If this is unique to me then settling on throttling the current for the summer months is a temporary solution (as this does not occur the rest of the year). Given a general contractor & electrician was the one that did the work (and I trust given he's been an electrician for 30+ years) leads me to believe there's a fault somewhere along the circuit that when a certain temp has been reached it's causing the breaker to trip. Now I [simply] have to find that fault.
I appreciate the brainstorming and solutions presented! Hopefully if someone else is experiencing the same thing this thread will provide direction on how to troubleshoot the matter.

 

[DTA]

50A breakers come in two different widths, narrow and wide. If you have room for the wider breaker in you panel use that because it has two contacts per leg of the 240V circuit to the bus bar in the back of the panel instead on on contact per leg. That will significantly reduce the heating that occurs within the breaker. The suggestion to turn the current from 40A to 32A in your EVSE is also a good suggestion.

Thanks! The 50 amp breaker is a double pole configuration. I've replaced it to ensure if it seazed because of the heat and/or recent power outage [and took a spike] that a new one would solve the issue. Unfortunately it didn't and I know [now] that the fault is occurring somewhere else along the circuit. A bit more troubleshooting to do before the issue is resolved.

 

[BS8899]

I have installed the Juicebox [smart EVSE], and the current is adjustable. Before settling on that option I wanted to verify whether any [other] AZ owners were experiencing the same [or similar] challenges. If this is unique to me then settling on throttling the current for the summer months is a temporary solution (as this does not occur the rest of the year). Given a general contractor & electrician was the one that did the work (and I trust given he's been an electrician for 30+ years) leads me to believe there's a fault somewhere along the circuit that when a certain temp has been reached it's causing the breaker to trip. Now I [simply] have to find that fault.
I appreciate the brainstorming and solutions presented! Hopefully if someone else is experiencing the same thing this thread will provide direction on how to troubleshoot the matter.

One of my two 50 Amp/240V circuit is to a JuiceBox. The JuiceBox has been in service for 5 years. I have not encountered the problem you described. That said, a lot depends on how the garage is situation/insulated and how much sun it takes in.
If you can dial the current back a bit on the JuiceBox, it should help. This is likely the cheapest and safest solution. The self-heating is proportional to the current squared. Hence dropping the current from 40A to 32A as @Adnillien suggested should reduce the self heating by 36%.

 

[DeaneG]

...leads me to believe there's a fault somewhere along the circuit that when a certain temp has been reached it's causing the breaker to trip. Now I [simply] have to find that fault...

The breaker knows nothing about the temperature of the wire along the conduit, or at the receptacle. To the first order, it only knows the current it is carrying. It may trip at a higher or lower current level than designed if gets very hot due to high ambient temp at the panel, or nearby breakers carrying a lot of current.
It's not a GFCI breaker, is it? These are required in many localities but are not compatible with EV charging.

 

[BS8899]

The breaker knows nothing about the temperature of the wire along the conduit, or at the receptacle. To the first order, it only knows the current it is carrying. It may trip at a higher or lower current level than designed if gets very hot due to high ambient temp at the panel, or nearby breakers carrying a lot of current.
It's not a GFCI breaker, is it? These are required in many localities but are not compatible with EV charging.

Why is a 2 pole/GFCI breaker not compatible with EV charging?

 

[DeaneG]

Why is a 2 pole/GFCI breaker not compatible with EV charging?

The EV charging adapter (EVSE) itself has an internal GFCI function which will interfere with the breaker's GFCI function, causing either the breaker to trip, or the EVSE to stop charging and signal an error.

If you live in a locality where GFCI breakers are required on all garage receptacles (per NEC 2020), you must hardwire your EV charging station instead. Then you can legally and safely use a non-GFCI breaker.

 

[BS8899]

Why is a 2 pole/GFCI breaker not compatible with EV charging?

NEMA 14-50 and GFCI Breakers - Connecting EV Charging Stations | Qmerit

Recent amendments to the electrical code increase the need for ground fault protection (GFCI) when using NEMA 14-50 outlets and introduce new complications for installing these breakers with EV charging stations. Learn more on our blog.

qmerit.com

The NEMA 14-50 socket I am using in my CA house is GFCI as required by code. And it works fine.

 

[DeaneG]

NEMA 14-50 and GFCI Breakers - Connecting EV Charging Stations | Qmerit

Recent amendments to the electrical code increase the need for ground fault protection (GFCI) when using NEMA 14-50 outlets and introduce new complications for installing these breakers with EV charging stations. Learn more on our blog.

qmerit.com

The NEMA 14-50 socket I am using in my CA house is GFCI as required by code. And it works fine.

You've been lucky. Right from the document you referenced:
"GFCIs normally add a layer of protection for users. However, they can also lead to nuisance tripping when used in conjunction with a Level-2 charger that will shut down the associated circuit and halt charging on your vehicle. This will cause headaches for homeowners who will have to continually reset the tripped breakers."

 

[BS8899]

You've been lucky. Right from the document you referenced:
"GFCIs normally add a layer of protection for users. However, they can also lead to nuisance tripping when used in conjunction with a Level-2 charger that will shut down the associated circuit and halt charging on your vehicle. This will cause headaches for homeowners who will have to continually reset the tripped breakers."

Perhaps I am. I can use all the luck I can get.

I don't disagree that hardwired is more robust. But I was under the impression that EVSC lower than 40A can use the NEMA 14-50 plug.

 

[DeaneG]

From Chargepoint:
"Ensure the electrical panel supports a 240 V dedicated circuit with a
new, dedicated, non-GFCI two-pole circuit breaker, in accordance with
local codes and ordinances.

Note: If local codes require a GFCI breaker for plug-in installation,
ChargePoint recommends a hardwire installation. We do not
recommend using a GFCI breaker as the Home Flex has charging circuit
interrupting device (CCID) protection. Using a GFCI breaker in the panel
can cause nuisance tripping."

 

[DeaneG]

Perhaps I am. I can use all the luck I can get.

I don't disagree that hardwired is more robust. But I was under the impression that EVSC lower than 40A can use the NEMA 14-50 plug.

It can, just not using a GFCI breaker.

 

[BS8899]

From Chargepoint:
"Ensure the electrical panel supports a 240 V dedicated circuit with a
new, dedicated, non-GFCI two-pole circuit breaker, in accordance with
local codes and ordinances.

Note: If local codes require a GFCI breaker for plug-in installation,
ChargePoint recommends a hardwire installation. We do not
recommend using a GFCI breaker as the Home Flex has charging circuit
interrupting device (CCID) protection. Using a GFCI breaker in the panel
can cause nuisance tripping."

Thanks for the info.

 

[BS8899]

Thanks for the info.

I am still a bit confused:

> if the EVSC is hardwired to the breakers, is a GFCI still necessary? I though GFCI is there to protect faults when people plug/unplug the equipment (EVSC, in this case).
> If so, why is a GFCI necessary for a hardwired EVSC? It is no different than your oven, right?
> My JuiceBox (at a different house) is 40A and plugs into a NEMA 14-50 plug without GFCI. The installation was done in 2019, before the 2020 NEC that mandates the GFCI.
> when I installed the NEMA 14-50 in my CA house in 2024, GFC was a requirement.