Car Dealerships and EVs

[scal_air]

Interesting article this morning. It discusses that many dealers know little about their EVs and how some dealers have hostile attitudes towards their own branded EVs - even trying to steer people away from them.

Electric vehicles are hitting a road block: Car dealers

As news started coming out about electric cars in early 2016, Michael Young, a self-described "car guy," knew he wanted to try one. One afternoon, he strolled into his local dealership and asked to test drive the BMW i3, a small, sporty car with a range of up to 150 miles. The salesperson...

finance.yahoo.com

 

[EXOTIC2]

There are some dealerships who are not even taking EV’s in on trade currently.

 

[Tesla2.0]

In Japan, all cars are sold by dealership, Toyota dominates majority of the market. Tesla couldn’t penetrate that market even today. Toyota also spread many misinformation about EVs. Nissan and Mitsubishi made EVs long before Tesla. The problem with their lack of adoption is because no viable charging infrastructure, so EV won’t work there. Sparse CHADeMo stalls that are broken and not maintained. People buy Tesla or other EVs are mostly enthusiasts. Tesla made mass adoption in America and China for the sake it’s not just EV, it’s SDV (Software Driven Vehicle). People are excited about SDV can be related to smart phone transition to smart cars. Toyota, Honda and many Japanese auto brands still cannot make transition because they have no resources in software development despite they have tons of ancillary hardware parts industry.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Funny last year I went to Hyundai dealership to inquire about Ioniq5, the salesman told me in elevated tone, “They are all sold out, Californians bought them all. If you want one, go fly to California to get one.”
What a friendly service!

 

[scal_air]

I really think that the charging infrastructure is the key to the success or failure of EVs within that area. Even though the vast majority of driving only requires home charging. I think Musk realizes this and is leveraging his network, perhaps to discourage the growth of other charging networks. He certainly is selling many Teslas at a loss, to increase his marketshare and starve out fledgling EV makers.

 

[suchluke]

I think most dealership make little money from the actual sale of the vehicle. It's the maintenance and service after the sale that is very lucrative. Since EVs don't require regular oil changes or much service/maintenance at all, dealers don't want to sale these cars to public being afraid of diminished profits.
Also I agree on improved charging infrastructure but also educating new EV owners of proper charging etiquette. Owning both Lucid and Test and going to both EA and Supercharger networks is totally different experience. Just this past weekend I talked to many frustrated EV owners at Electrify America. It's not the car or range but the charging experience that it is most frustrating to them.

 

[scal_air]

Oh, I agree. But EA is steadily improving and I would love to see that continue. Last night in Goleta, there were 6 EA chargers and 12 Tesla chargers. Of course all the EA chargers were in use and people had to wait while there were open Tesla spots. Really can't put too much blame on EA as all their chargers were functioning, there were just not enough of them. If people could charge at Tesla, would there be as much incentive for EA to put up more stations?

It will be interesting how the initial experience with the Tesla magic docks plays out. As others have pointed out, the frustration of the charger not recognizing the car is easily avoided if all you're servicing are Teslas. The slower speed of charging with the 400V chargers will be another issue...

 

[Tesla2.0]

Oh, I agree. But EA is steadily improving and I would love to see that continue. Last night in Goleta, there were 6 EA chargers and 12 Tesla chargers. Of course all the EA chargers were in use and people had to wait while there were open Tesla spots. Really can't put too much blame on EA as all their chargers were functioning, there were just not enough of them. If people could charge at Tesla, would there be as much incentive for EA to put up more stations?

It will be interesting how the initial experience with the Tesla magic docks plays out. As others have pointed out, the frustration of the charger not recognizing the car is easily avoided if all you're servicing are Teslas. The slower speed of charging with the 400V chargers will be another issue...

I tried MagicDock couple times. It’s easy. Charging speed not is not impressive, but process is simple. It’s not cheap juice like EA, just take some before next stop, don’t need to potty too long there.

 

[Haggy]

Oh, I agree. But EA is steadily improving and I would love to see that continue. Last night in Goleta, there were 6 EA chargers and 12 Tesla chargers. Of course all the EA chargers were in use and people had to wait while there were open Tesla spots. Really can't put too much blame on EA as all their chargers were functioning, there were just not enough of them. If people could charge at Tesla, would there be as much incentive for EA to put up more stations?

It will be interesting how the initial experience with the Tesla magic docks plays out. As others have pointed out, the frustration of the charger not recognizing the car is easily avoided if all you're servicing are Teslas. The slower speed of charging with the 400V chargers will be another issue...

I went through the same thing with Tesla when the Supercharger network was relatively new. California had the lion's share of Tesla sales. The Bay Area and Los Angeles had most of those sales. So I5 between the two had more Teslas than any major route in the country and probably the world. There were two stations spaced such that it was impossible to make the trip without using both of them, there were no alternatives on the route, and each had six Superchargers. These days, there are at least a dozen other stations on that section, and those two stations have 100 chargers at one, and 100 split across both sides of the freeway exit at the other. And the other stations in between might have a large number of chargers too.

Things went from one year when during a holiday weekend, there was a line that was hours long to no significant backup a year later to having plenty of places to charge along the way now. EA has work to do but it's not impossible. They need more chargers, and better locations. I looked into that same route with EA chargers, and it's nowhere near good enough. And with Tesla, I can take alternate more scenic routes such as 101, which is far worse for EA. I ended up making the trip in a Tesla, that I drove to my daughter's house to give to her, and I did hit a Supercharger station with a line in Los Angeles itself. But with 16 chargers, it took only a few minutes. Even if the average person charged for a half hour, a space would open up every couple of minutes or so. So a line of three cars ahead of me wasn't an issue. And if it had been, I could have picked another station. In the future, I might end up repeating some of the frustrations of early Tesla years with a Lucid, but I can see growing out of it, especially if Tesla deploys V4 with 1000V and magic docks in a big way that Lucids can use.

For people who are looking at Tesla because they want to avoid charging problems, having a network opened up will help. And of course if people are willing to pay for charging, which they'd have to do with a Tesla, it means that with a Lucid, you could use any CCS whether it's EA or not. So as other CCS providers do better and all add NACS cables or adapters, things will change.

I think most dealership make little money from the actual sale of the vehicle. It's the maintenance and service after the sale that is very lucrative. Since EVs don't require regular oil changes or much service/maintenance at all, dealers don't want to sale these cars to public being afraid of diminished profits.
Also I agree on improved charging infrastructure but also educating new EV owners of proper charging etiquette. Owning both Lucid and Test and going to both EA and Supercharger networks is totally different experience. Just this past weekend I talked to many frustrated EV owners at Electrify America. It's not the car or range but the charging experience that it is most frustrating to them.

I rarely brought cars to the dealership for things like oil changes. I've seen tune ups go from 3000 miles for points and plugs to 100,000+ miles for plugs and no points. I've had my share of warranty work done, and aside from the drive train and battery, there's a lot of overlap in terms of things that could go wrong on either an ICEV or EV. Anything from door switches to window regulators to sun visors to glove compartments could be just as lucrative on EVs.

The bigger problem is that sales people want to get a commission and know that chances are slim once a potential customer leaves. EV buyers at this stage aren't likely to decide in a single visit. With Lucid or Tesla, the company loses nothing if you leave and decide to buy later, and it's not as if you can find a different dealership to get a better price. And from what I read, it takes three times as long to sell an EV.

When I got a Lucid, people at Lucid were relieved that they had to explain things about a Lucid rather than teach me about EVs at the same time. Once people are exposed to more EVs, either by owning one or by having friends and neighbors who have them, the landscape will change.

 

[hmp10]

EV sales are still facing a lot of headwinds. Ford dealerships in Illinois just won a challenge to Ford's requirement that dealers who sell Ford EVs must provide at least one fast charger at the dealership and train employees on EV sales and use:

Illinois Ford dealers win ruling against automaker’s EV certification program requiring pricey fast chargers

A group of 26 Illinois Ford dealers won a legal battle last week that could short-circuit the automaker’s national EV certification program, challenging required fast charger installation and…

www.chicagotribune.com

On another front, a friend just returned from a lengthy overseas trip and was telling us about it this afternoon. There were four EV owners in the group (Lucid Air, Tesla Model S Plaid, Chevy Bolt, VW ID.4), all of whom have been trying to convince this friend that his next car should be an EV. He told us the following tale of woe:

He and his traveling companion landed at Miami International Airport around midnight from Istanbul last Sunday. They had to get home across the state to Fort Myers, a trip of about 130 miles. As they had both been wanting to try an EV, they reserved a Tesla from Avis. Instead, Avis gave them a Mustang Mach-E -- with 62% battery charge. They noticed this when they got in the car but, as the navigation system told them they had 148 miles of range available, they set out on the road shortly after midnight. They had been given no warning or instruction about what highway speeds would do to predicted range and thus accepted the remaining range as accurate.

As they crossed Alligator Alley (a desolate stretch of I-75 through the Everglades with only a Tesla Supercharger station along the route), they noticed that the available range was dropping faster than the miles they were covering. It was now past 1:30 a.m., and with miles still to go on Alligator Alley the car began giving them warnings that they would not reach their destination. Not knowing what to do, they dropped their speed down from around 80 mph to 65 mph, at which point the reduction in remaining range began to match the ground covered. But as they got north of Naples and still about 20 miles from their first stop to drop off my friend at his house, the car began telling them to look for a charging station immediately. They had no idea what to do, other than slow down even more.

They decided to divert to the driver's house, which was a few miles closer. About a mile from his house, the battery charge went to zero and the car began flashing red warnings that the car only had 2 miles of range remaining. They made it to the driver's house. Avis had provided them only with a 110-volt charging cord, and the car was plugged in at the house. By 3:00 p.m. the next day the battery charge was up to 25%, and the car was returned to Avis amid a fair bit of cursing and railing. Avis' only offer of redress for the near-disaster was to waive the recharging fee -- for a car that had been delivered to them with only 62% of charge!

Neither of these guys will be buying an EV any time soon. We spent dinner this evening trying to explain why remaining range estimates seldom track real-world driving, how power usage rises exponentially with speed, and excoriating Avis for delivering them a car with only 62% of charge and no advice about how to interpret range estimates. Our friend held his ground. No EV in his immediate future.

 

[gaskiller]

EV sales are still facing a lot of headwinds. Ford dealerships in Illinois just won a challenge to Ford's requirement that dealers who sell Ford EVs must provide at least one fast charger at the dealership and train employees on EV sales and use:

Illinois Ford dealers win ruling against automaker’s EV certification program requiring pricey fast chargers

A group of 26 Illinois Ford dealers won a legal battle last week that could short-circuit the automaker’s national EV certification program, challenging required fast charger installation and…

www.chicagotribune.com

On another front, a friend just returned from a lengthy overseas trip and was telling us about it this afternoon. There were four EV owners in the group (Lucid Air, Tesla Model S Plaid, Chevy Bolt, VW ID.4), all of whom have been trying to convince this friend that his next car should be an EV. He told us the following tale of woe:

He and his traveling companion landed at Miami International Airport around midnight from Istanbul last Sunday. They had to get home across the state to Fort Myers, a trip of about 130 miles. As they had both been wanting to try an EV, they reserved a Tesla from Avis. Instead, Avis gave them a Mustang Mach-E -- with 62% battery charge. They noticed this when they got in the car but, as the navigation system told them they had 148 miles of range available, they set out on the road shortly after midnight. They had been given no warning or instruction about what highway speeds would do to predicted range and thus accepted the remaining range as accurate.

As they crossed Alligator Alley (a desolate stretch of I-75 through the Everglades with only a Tesla Supercharger station along the route), they noticed that the available range was dropping faster than the miles they were covering. It was now past 1:30 a.m., and with miles still to go on Alligator Alley the car began giving them warnings that they would not reach their destination. Not knowing what to do, they dropped their speed down from around 80 mph to 65 mph, at which point the reduction in remaining range began to match the ground covered. But as they got north of Naples and still about 20 miles from their first stop to drop off my friend at his house, the car began telling them to look for a charging station immediately. They had no idea what to do, other than slow down even more.

They decided to divert to the driver's house, which was a few miles closer. About a mile from his house, the battery charge went to zero and the car began flashing red warnings that the car only had 2 miles of range remaining. They made it to the driver's house. Avis had provided them only with a 110-volt charging cord, and the car was plugged in at the house. By 3:00 p.m. the next day the battery charge was up to 25%, and the car was returned to Avis amid a fair bit of cursing and railing. Avis' only offer of redress for the near-disaster was to waive the recharging fee -- for a car that had been delivered to them with only 62% of charge!

Neither of these guys will be buying an EV any time soon. We spent dinner this evening trying to explain why remaining range estimates seldom track real-world driving, how power usage rises exponentially with speed, and excoriating Avis for delivering them a car with only 62% of charge and no advice about how to interpret range estimates. Our friend held his ground. No EV in his immediate future.

Hertz should be ashamed. What a lousy way to run a business. And they go out and buy thousands of EV's but dont educate or offer full charge. No wonder Hertz is in a shambles.

 

[hydbob]

Hertz should be ashamed. What a lousy way to run a business. And they go out and buy thousands of EV's but dont educate or offer full charge. No wonder Hertz is in a shambles.

Well that was Avis, but similar horror stories can be heard from Hertz as well.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Well that was Avis, but similar horror stories can be heard from Hertz as well.

I recall couple times this year at CCS stations I saw Polestars 2 twice charging at above 90% and there are lines waiting to be charged. I tried to talk to drivers. One time, the driver told me “I gotta return this car to Hertz fully charged.” The other time, “It’s not my car, I’m just renting to test out EV.” In either case, sitting there for an hour at < 25kW speed in last 10% is sure way to lose future EV adopters. Good job Hertz!

 

[hydbob]

I recall couple times this year at CCS stations I saw Polestars 2 twice charging at above 90% and there are lines waiting to be charged. I tried to talk to drivers. One time, the driver told me “I gotta return this car to Hertz fully charged.” The other time, “It’s not my car, I’m just renting to test out EV.” In either case, sitting there for an hour at < 25kW speed in last 10% is sure way to lose future EV adopters. Good job Hertz!

I'm not sure why they were told differently, but the last time I rented an EV from Hertz they told me it just had to be above 70%.

 

[Tesla2.0]

I'm not sure why they were told differently, but the last time I rented an EV from Hertz they told me it just had to be above 70%.

Regardless, the etiquette of busier EA station with 6 stalls. It can be frustrating for people waiting to charge when there is 1~3 Polestar2 and Bolts charging above 90%. I agree Tesla now impose “congestion minutes fee” to driver who charge above 80%. I think EA should too. Money is best conditioner to people’s behavior such as “idle minutes fee”.

 

[MoniputerLM]

Well that was Avis, but similar horror stories can be heard from Hertz as well.

Last week National offered us a Volvo XC40 and I thought that it would be fun to try. I was told that it was charged but noticed as we were leaving the airport that it had only 27% left, or around 60 miles, but didn't worry about it because surely there would be a DCFC nearby. Well, I was wrong! Only two withing range and one was inside a Nissan dealer. I did manage to charge at an EA fast charger. It was not a great experience. There were at least 20 open Tesla charging stations on the way to the EA charger.

Moral of the story is that if you rent an EV, check your charge level and available chargers before leaving the airport, and probably stick with Tesla, for now!

 

[Instinctive]

I'm not sure why they were told differently, but the last time I rented an EV from Hertz they told me it just had to be above 70%.

I consistently take EVs out of BDL and have literally never charged one. Like a beautiful benefit of an EV for rental agencies should be that they can cheaply recharge them overnight upon return.

 

[par11768]

I really think that the charging infrastructure is the key to the success or failure of EVs within that area. Even though the vast majority of driving only requires home charging. I think Musk realizes this and is leveraging his network, perhaps to discourage the growth of other charging networks. He certainly is selling many Teslas at a loss, to increase his marketshare and starve out fledgling EV makers.

Tesla is not selling EVs at a loss, even with the current markdowns. Please read their 10K. They are a public company with audited financials and are profitable in the car business, not as profitable as when EV prices were through the roof during Covid.

 

[joec]

Rental companies are doing a huge disservice to EVs with this nonsense. I’ve rented a few EVs in the past, but I know what I’m doing. Not once did they offer me any real practical advice about charging and such.

Meanwhile at chargers I have encountered people renting their first EV who are bumfuddled about how to charge. And it’s clear the rental company told them nothing.

 

[hmp10]

Rental companies are doing a huge disservice to EVs with this nonsense. I’ve rented a few EVs in the past, but I know what I’m doing. Not once did they offer me any real practical advice about charging and such.

Meanwhile at chargers I have encountered people renting their first EV who are bumfuddled about how to charge. And it’s clear the rental company told them nothing.

Most car dealers show little interest in training their sales force on EVs, so it's too much to expect rental agencies to train counter personnel on them. However, anyone who rents an EV should at least be given a prepared sheet or flyer with a few key tips about driving and charging an EV. This should cover things such as:

- regenerative braking
- the effects of highway speeds and cold weather on range
- warnings that the car's indicated range may be inaccurate
- how to locate suitable charging stations
- what to do if the car seems to be running out of range before final destination.