7500 EV tax credit update with new bill

Will you continue to purchase without the EV Credit?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 70.0%
  • No

    Votes: 3 30.0%

  • Total voters
    10
To be clear, this is just one opinion, and it’s the minority view on how the rules will be applied.
And you know, as well as I, as lawyers that minority opinions carry weight. This is what we do as lawyers -- interpret laws often times differently. The difference with me however, is not only my JD, but my actual job of over 22 years is drafting legislation and interpreting those laws in practice. I don't post my opinion of the actual language of the transition rule in the IRA lightly.

Have a good one!
 
And you know, as well as I, as lawyers that minority opinions carry weight. This is what we do as lawyers -- interpret laws often times differently. The difference with me however, is not only my JD, but my actual job of over 22 years is drafting legislation and interpreting those laws in practice. I don't post my opinion of the actual language of the transition rule in the IRA lightly.

Have a good one!
Yep. Won’t fight you there. Just noting the background for the new guy
 
Anyone know if the TOURING model is eligible for the $7,500 tax credit? My advisor and her boss "think so"!
Moderator JOEC wrote: We’re basically consolidating all tax credit questions into the thread at the bottom of this post.

The Touring will absolutely qualify if you take delivery before Jan 1, 2023. After that, it will not qualify under the new rules. It’s too expensive.
We’re basically consolidating all tax credit questions into the thread at the bottom of this post.

The Touring will absolutely qualify if you take delivery before Jan 1, 2023. After that, it will not qualify under the new rules. It’s too expensive.

FACT: The TOURING model is NOT LISTED as eligible on the IRS web site. So what would happen if I buy the Touring before EOY and the TOURING is NOT available for the credit?
Will Lucid make me whole?
 
Moderator JOEC wrote: We’re basically consolidating all tax credit questions into the thread at the bottom of this post.

The Touring will absolutely qualify if you take delivery before Jan 1, 2023. After that, it will not qualify under the new rules. It’s too expensive.
We’re basically consolidating all tax credit questions into the thread at the bottom of this post.

The Touring will absolutely qualify if you take delivery before Jan 1, 2023. After that, it will not qualify under the new rules. It’s too expensive.

FACT: The TOURING model is NOT LISTED as eligible on the IRS web site. So what would happen if I buy the Touring before EOY and the TOURING is NOT available for the credit?
Will Lucid make me whole?
Not listed on the IRS web site for 2022? Or do you mean the new rules for 2023? I am unaware of any such list.

My understanding is that as long as Lucid hadn’t sold more than the quota of cars (I believe Tesla is the only manufacturer who became ineligible under the old rules) basically nothing else matters. If it’s electric, you get the tax credit.

Here’s the language of the 2022 credit.

“You may be eligible for a credit under Section 30D(a), if you purchased a car or truck with at least four wheels and a gross vehicle weight of less than 14,000 pounds that draws energy from a battery with at least 4 kilowatt hours and that may be recharged from an external source. You must have purchased it in or after 2010 and begun driving it in the year in which you claim the credit. The credit ranges between $2,500 and $7,500, depending on the capacity of the battery. The credit begins to phase out for a manufacturer, when that manufacturer sells 200,000 qualified vehicles.”
 
Moderator JOEC wrote: We’re basically consolidating all tax credit questions into the thread at the bottom of this post.

The Touring will absolutely qualify if you take delivery before Jan 1, 2023. After that, it will not qualify under the new rules. It’s too expensive.
We’re basically consolidating all tax credit questions into the thread at the bottom of this post.

The Touring will absolutely qualify if you take delivery before Jan 1, 2023. After that, it will not qualify under the new rules. It’s too expensive.

FACT: The TOURING model is NOT LISTED as eligible on the IRS web site. So what would happen if I buy the Touring before EOY and the TOURING is NOT available for the credit?
Will Lucid make me whole?
The current law on the books doesn’t specify specific cars, but I am not a lawyer. Anyway, talk to your tax attorney, and no, Lucid will not make you whole; they don’t control the credit.

As an example; if you made too little income to take full advantage of the $7500 credit, they won’t reimburse you for the credit you lost out on either. That’s between you, your accountants, and the IRS.
 
Not listed on the IRS web site for 2022? Or do you mean the new rules for 2023? I am unaware of any such list.

My understanding is that as long as Lucid hadn’t sold more than the quota of cars (I believe Tesla is the only manufacturer who became ineligible under the old rules) basically nothing else matters. If it’s electric, you get the tax credit.

Here’s the language of the 2022 credit.

“You may be eligible for a credit under Section 30D(a), if you purchased a car or truck with at least four wheels and a gross vehicle weight of less than 14,000 pounds that draws energy from a battery with at least 4 kilowatt hours and that may be recharged from an external source. You must have purchased it in or after 2010 and begun driving it in the year in which you claim the credit. The credit ranges between $2,500 and $7,500, depending on the capacity of the battery. The credit begins to phase out for a manufacturer, when that manufacturer sells 200,000 qualified vehicles.”
Please go to https://www.irs.gov/businesses/irc-30d-new-qualified-plug-in-electric-drive-motor-vehicle-credit and look under Lucid. Only the GT and Dream are listed as eligible...

Also, I am only buying the can NOW if I get the rebate. If LUCID says "The Touring will absolutely qualify if you take delivery before Jan 1, 2023" my expectation is that LUCID will stand behind their proclamation if the IRS says no! BTW, I personally would qualify for the rebate if the FEDS allow it.
 
Please go to https://www.irs.gov/businesses/irc-30d-new-qualified-plug-in-electric-drive-motor-vehicle-credit and look under Lucid. Only the GT and Dream are listed as eligible...

Also, I am only buying the can NOW if I get the rebate. If LUCID says "The Touring will absolutely qualify if you take delivery before Jan 1, 2023" my expectation is that LUCID will stand behind their proclamation if the IRS says no! BTW, I personally would qualify for the rebate if the FEDS allow it.
Hmm. My guess is when the IRS asked Lucid for a list of qualifying cars, they weren’t yet shipping Touring. And then they never updated that list. Or the IRS didn’t update the web site.

What I know is if you applied for a lease on a Touring a month or two ago, Lucid took $7500 off the price of the car. Which means they plan on taking the tax credit. That suggests to me they are confident it qualifies.

But I’d get Lucid to confirm that, just to be sure.
 
Thanks Joe. Good advice. Not sure how to get Lucid to do this! They have been quite clear that the $7,500 would NOT come off the price, but I would be paying cash. It says YOU are a Staff Member. Do YOU work for Lucid? Not sure how to pin LUCID down on this...
 
Thanks Joe. Good advice. Not sure how to get Lucid to do this! They have been quite clear that the $7,500 would NOT come off the price, but I would be paying cash. It says YOU are a Staff Member. Do YOU work for Lucid? Not sure how to pin LUCID down on this...
It would only come off the price on a lease because Lucid gets to claim the credit. For a purchase, that is your responsibility to claim the credit with the IRS.
 
And you know, as well as I, as lawyers that minority opinions carry weight. This is what we do as lawyers -- interpret laws often times differently. The difference with me however, is not only my JD, but my actual job of over 22 years is drafting legislation and interpreting those laws in practice. I don't post my opinion of the actual language of the transition rule in the IRA lightly.
With your background, how do you reconcile the "5% of contract value" as an example of what is a written binding contract on the IRS website? Having attempted to read it, I know that's not the actual language in the bill, but does the IRS usually have discretion in instances like this to impose such a restriction?
 
That's what I suspected. How do I arrange a lease?
When your car is close to being completed Lucid will ask you to apply for financing. One of the options will be for a lease. I will say up front, the leasing terms (money factor and residual) are not particularly great. It’s a new car, so banks have no clear indication of the depreciation over time yet. So they low ball the residual.

Also, I am not sure at what point Lucid will stop taking the $7500 off the car’s price. Since the tax credit will no longer apply after January 1st. But no harm in having a look to see if they are still doing it when the time comes.

Also, to make things clear: I do not work for Lucid, and none of my words represent any official communication from the company. I’m just a person who has been reading this forum every day for a year. I volunteered to become a moderator months ago when the creator of the forum asked if anyone was interested. The forum is also not affiliated with Lucid.

There are Lucid employees who occasionally read the forum. They will be marked clearly with a blue badge.
 
With your background, how do you reconcile the "5% of contract value" as an example of what is a written binding contract on the IRS website? Having attempted to read it, I know that's not the actual language in the bill, but does the IRS usually have discretion in instances like this to impose such a restriction?
Sorry I'm just seeing this question. I was offline most of yesterday finishing up Christmas shopping. Before I answer, understand I'm not a tax advisor, or tax attorney, and this is not financial advice.

I reconcile the 5% in two ways. First, on the IRS website they state non-refundable deposit OR 5%. That's number one.

Second, in the actual language of the Transitional Rule in the Bill that is now Law, there's no mention of a date that the car MUST be placed in service. The law's language to me and a few others is clear. It states, "after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, a taxpayer that purchased or entered into a written and binding contract to purchase a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this act, and placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect to to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this act."

So now the question that the IRS turned into this mess is what's a binding contract and their poor explanation of a binding contract. This is where the interpretations are all over the place. Some are saying a binding contract had to have a minimum of 5% as your deposit. This is inaccurate in my opinion. The IRS gives this 5% as one example but also gives another example -- a non-refundable deposit in the same sentence with the use of the word OR.

Next the IRS states "a written contract is binding if it is enforceable under State law and does not limit damages to a specified amount.... by the use of a Liquidated Damages provision or the forfeiture of a deposit." This is likely the reason Lucid and other folks here are saying cars not delivered in 2022 won't qualify. This interpretation is wrong in my opinion. First, BOTH parties to a contract have remedies. Lucid stated in our order agreements that they are electing to keep our $1,000 deposit as liquidated damages if we, the customer breaches. Okay fine. However, ask yourself, what's the customer's remedy if Lucid breaches? The answer to the question is found in Section 11 (Disputes, Arbitration, Waiver of Jury Demand) in our order agreements. Since this is the remedy agreed to by Lucid and the customer for a customer's claims and disputes with Lucid, the IRS' liquidated damages language doesn't apply as a limiter to our contracts being binding. If the contract language said something like both Lucid and the customer agree to a set amount as liquidated damages, then Yes, our contacts likely would be considered non-binding

Second, the interpretation that cars must be delivered in by the end of 2022 to qualify for the tax credit doesn't even take into consideration the Transition Rule for written and binding contracts PRIOR to the passage of the IRA. The IRS lists two scenarios -- contracts prior to August 16, 2022 and those contracts between August 16, 2022 and December 31, 2022. I discuss these in an earlier post a few pages back. My reading is that IRA rules don't apply because we fall under the old rules that were in effect prior to the passage of the IRA.

To answer your final question, the IRS is a government agency. They operate under our tax laws first and have established regulations that must conform to the law. In essence, the IRS cannot write a regulation that is not consistent with tax laws. Since I am not competent in tax code or IRS' regulations, can't answer this question definitively.
 

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I reconcile the 5% in two ways. First, on the IRS website they state non-refundable deposit OR 5%. That's number one.
Thanks for taking the time to write this, especially on the holiday (eve)! I think I get the points about no particular delivery date being required, and about liquidated damages clauses having to apply to both parties in a contract.

If I understand correctly, you interpret a particular sentence from the IRS website [1] to group clauses as follows, indicated by colors and parentheses:

"For example, if a customer has made a (non-refundable deposit) or (down payment of 5 percent of the total contract price), it is an indication of a binding contract."

As opposed to:

"For example, if a customer has made a (non-refundable deposit or down payment) of (5 percent of the total contract price), it is an indication of a binding contract."

However, a couple sentences earlier:

"...if a customer has made a significant non-refundable deposit or down payment..."

Which to me favors the latter reading...though I am not even close to a lawyer. I can see why the "majority" opinion is what it is. I do hope you're right though. Thanks again for clarifying.

[1] https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in-electric-vehicle-credit-irc-30-and-irc-30d
 
Sorry I'm just seeing this question. I was offline most of yesterday finishing up Christmas shopping. Before I answer, understand I'm not a tax advisor, or tax attorney, and this is not financial advice.

I reconcile the 5% in two ways. First, on the IRS website they state non-refundable deposit OR 5%. That's number one.

Second, in the actual language of the Transitional Rule in the Bill that is now Law, there's no mention of a date that the car MUST be placed in service. The law's language to me and a few others is clear. It states, "after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, a taxpayer that purchased or entered into a written and binding contract to purchase a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this act, and placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect to to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this act."

So now the question that the IRS turned into this mess is what's a binding contract and their poor explanation of a binding contract. This is where the interpretations are all over the place. Some are saying a binding contract had to have a minimum of 5% as your deposit. This is inaccurate in my opinion. The IRS gives this 5% as one example but also gives another example -- a non-refundable deposit in the same sentence with the use of the word OR.

Next the IRS states "a written contract is binding if it is enforceable under State law and does not limit damages to a specified amount.... by the use of a Liquidated Damages provision or the forfeiture of a deposit." This is likely the reason Lucid and other folks here are saying cars not delivered in 2022 won't qualify. This interpretation is wrong in my opinion. First, BOTH parties to a contract have remedies. Lucid stated in our order agreements that they are electing to keep our $1,000 deposit as liquidated damages if we, the customer breaches. Okay fine. However, ask yourself, what's the customer's remedy if Lucid breaches? The answer to the question is found in Section 11 (Disputes, Arbitration, Waiver of Jury Demand) in our order agreements. Since this is the remedy agreed to by Lucid and the customer for a customer's claims and disputes with Lucid, the IRS' liquidated damages language doesn't apply as a limiter to our contracts being binding. If the contract language said something like both Lucid and the customer agree to a set amount as liquidated damages, then Yes, our contacts likely would be considered non-binding

Second, the interpretation that cars must be delivered in by the end of 2022 to qualify for the tax credit doesn't even take into consideration the Transition Rule for written and binding contracts PRIOR to the passage of the IRA. The IRS lists two scenarios -- contracts prior to August 16, 2022 and those contracts between August 16, 2022 and December 31, 2022. I discuss these in an earlier post a few pages back. My reading is that IRA rules don't apply because we fall under the old rules that were in effect prior to the passage of the IRA.

To answer your final question, the IRS is a government agency. They operate under our tax laws first and have established regulations that must conform to the law. In essence, the IRS cannot write a regulation that is not consistent with tax laws. Since I am not competent in tax code or IRS' regulations, can't answer this question definitively.
Excellent summary!!! Thanks much!
 
I am NOT a LAWYER. I did take contract law 101 in MBA school, and from what I remember, a hand shake can be considered a binding contract!
 
I am NOT a LAWYER. I did take contract law 101 in MBA school, and from what I remember, a hand shake can be considered a binding contract!
They absolutely can be. But the requirements here are pretty specific, written being one of them.
 
Depends. A lot of wealthy people have almost no income, from a tax perspective. And believe me, they take every tax credit they can get away with.
I do not have anything near the $150K income. Yay, I qualify. So I pulled money out of an investment account to pay for my AGT. I even pre-paid my Federal tax liability like a good patriot. Was happy to pay cash for my new vehicle. Then it hit me later that night. The $170K that I took out for the purchase will be considered income. Oops, I really screwed up. I am not an accountant but fairly certain that I lost my $7500 tax credit. Should have taken out a loan at 5%, received my $7500 tax credit and then paid the vehicle off. Don’t I feel stupid now.
 
I am NOT a LAWYER. I did take contract law 101 in MBA school, and from what I remember, a hand shake can be considered a binding contract!
In many states, if it's an agreement for goods or services valued at more than $500, it requires a signed agreement.
 
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