7500 EV tax credit update with new bill

[stratus]

I honestly do not think the tax credit or lack of it will dissuade that many people. There is always a lot of complaining , but in my opinion , people will buy the car they want, regardless of the extra perk. Look at Tesla, still selling like hotcakes.
I have to admit, I think the cap on the price of a vehicle for a credit is stupid , but that is the only way they would get the bill through. An EV is a good thing no matter the price.
Without delving too much into what some folks consider sensitive political issues, there seems to be an abundance of good things in that bill that directly address climate change and renewables. This is incredibly important and I am personally thankful for that. Sure the lack of a tax credit will be disappointing to some, but maybe it will open the door for others? Who knows. Plus, the distinguished senator from Arizona may kill the entire thing.

Well, she didn’t kill the bill!!!

 

[Steveinarizona]

Not a lawyer either but wondering if Lucid, Fisker (or anyone else) could simply introduce a non-refundable small deposit (like $200) for reservations that are still way out there (not expecting to receive a car for 6 months or way more), and be in compliance with this provision.

A binding purchase contract is not the same thing as a non-refundable deposit. If one can back out and only forfeit the deposit, I don't see that qualifying.

 

[njg-agt]

A binding purchase contract is not the same thing as a non-refundable deposit. If one can back out and only forfeit the deposit, I don't see that qualifying.

It is binding, it is for purchase, it is a contract... there are required deliverables for both sides (the car and the money), and consequences of non-performance ($1000 cost paid by the non-performing side)...

 

[Steveinarizona]

It is binding, it is for purchase, it is a contract... there are required deliverables for both sides (the car and the money), and consequences of non-performance ($1000 cost paid by the non-performing side)...

If you believe that...go for it.

 

[njg-agt]

If you believe that...go for it.

The question is not what I do or don't believe, the question is a legal one of WTF does the language in this bill mean on this issue...

 

[Ksa23]

Confirming your order is 100% a binding agreement. Once you confirm, the deposit is lost and we are provided with an order number, and the vehicle has been earmarked for you.

The qualify for the defunct $7500 credit, we must "entered into a written binding contract to purchase"

To dispel any doubt, this is directly from our Lucid Order Confirmation:

You are agreeing to these terms and conditions of sale (“Terms”)​

to purchase a Lucid Air from Lucid Group USA, Inc. (“Lucid,”​

“we” or “us”).​

You agree to purchase your vehicle (“Vehicle”) from Lucid​

as configured and at the price set forth in your Configuration​

Summary.​

 

[Ksa23]

I hope that Lucid can send out confirmations to all non-confirmed orders to lock in their credits.

 

[Daniel2022AT]

Well, she didn’t kill the bill!!!

Interested to hear your take on the “good things” in the bill.

 

[Daniel2022AT]

There was a highly informative piece in the Wall St Journal this week regarding the EV incentives in the new bill. Essentially it said no EV’s will qualify due to the restrictions about domestic sourcing of certain critical components. It will take years to transition the supply chain. So much for incentives towards EVs in the US. Lucid and Rivian really got screwed.

 

[njg-agt]

There was a highly informative piece in the Wall St Journal this week regarding the EV incentives in the new bill. Essentially it said no EV’s will qualify due to the restrictions about domestic sourcing of certain critical components. It will take years to transition the supply chain. So much for incentives towards EVs in the US. Lucid and Rivian really got screwed.

Personally, I think this was a part of Manchin's goal/desires... he is a petro-chemical line-my-pocket sorta guy (not sure why he identifies as Blue, but personally still glad he does).

 

[LCIDdreams]

There was a highly informative piece in the Wall St Journal this week regarding the EV incentives in the new bill. Essentially it said no EV’s will qualify due to the restrictions about domestic sourcing of certain critical components. It will take years to transition the supply chain. So much for incentives towards EVs in the US. Lucid and Rivian really got screwed.

It’s increasingly started to look that way- for some key battery minerals 75-90% of worldwide refining capacity currently happens in China, which seems to be anathema to this bill. Perhaps that is the goal all along- kill the currents credits, transition to these new ones that almost no one qualifies for, and by the time supply chain is built out in US and amongst US free trade partners the bill will be overridden by a new Senate.

 

[Ksa23]

It’s increasingly started to look that way- for some key battery minerals 75-90% of worldwide refining capacity currently happens in China, which seems to be anathema to this bill. Perhaps that is the goal all along- kill the currents credits, transition to these new ones that almost no one qualifies for, and by the time supply chain is built out in US and amongst US free trade partners the bill will be overridden by a new Senate.

I don't believe the conspiracy whatsoever..

The new bill incentives the auto mfgs heavily to reduce costs and increase their own investments into EVs. More corporate investment = stronger effect of economies of scale = lower MSRPs = more incentives to the public.

Plus, the US is increasingly SUV dominated, which is the 80k price point

 

[Lucid-PA-DE-AZ]

By oil baron it would be "Joe Manchin", as this is not the bill that the Democrats first put forward (which increased credits without these limiting factors and without the gifts to the oil cartel). No, this is simply the bill that JoeM would support is all, and without that support (because all the GOP simply vote "no" for anything put forth by Democrats) the entire thing is dead.

Bingo!!

 

[stratus]

Interested to hear your take on the “good things” in the bill.

Well, I do not really want to delve into what could become an uncomfortable political commentary , but I do think there are elements of the bill that make significant investments in renewable energy., which I personally think is excellent. I’ll leave it at that. I am sure others may disagree and that’s OK.

 

[Drendino]

I don't believe the conspiracy whatsoever..

The new bill incentives the auto mfgs heavily to reduce costs and increase their own investments into EVs. More corporate investment = stronger effect of economies of scale = lower MSRPs = more incentives to the public.

Plus, the US is increasingly SUV dominated, which is the 80k price point

Sorry, but even the people who served up this heaping pile of a bill don’t really believe that it will create more EVs. Rivian loses money when they sell a truck or SUV for $80k, which is why they significantly raised their prices. How in the world are they going to magically make money at $60k, when production costs are only increasing?

You could make an argument that the EV market doesn’t really need any subsidies due to high demand and long wait lists. I understand that argument even though I don’t like it. Please just don’t tell me that this bill will reduce carbon by putting more EVs on the road, while reducing inflation at the same time. Anybody who thinks that, probably works in Washington DC, not in the actual world.

 

[Ksa23]

Sorry, but even the people who served up this heaping pile of a bill don’t really believe that it will create more EVs. Rivian loses money when they sell a truck or SUV for $80k, which is why they significantly raised their prices. How in the world are they going to magically make money at $60k, when production costs are only increasing?

You could make an argument that the EV market doesn’t really need any subsidies due to high demand and long wait lists. I understand that argument even though I don’t like it. Please just don’t tell me that this bill will reduce carbon by putting more EVs on the road, while reducing inflation at the same time. Anybody who thinks that, probably works in Washington DC, not in the actual world.

Rivian is not a mainstream “average American” brand, nor are they trying to be.. they are upper/mid luxury. A Bolt is 30k.

Tesla is not far off in MSRP either.

So strange how often Rivian is mentioned here as an example as if they’re the only other EV maker

 

[stratus]

Sorry, but even the people who served up this heaping pile of a bill don’t really believe that it will create more EVs. Rivian loses money when they sell a truck or SUV for $80k, which is why they significantly raised their prices. How in the world are they going to magically make money at $60k, when production costs are only increasing?

You could make an argument that the EV market doesn’t really need any subsidies due to high demand and long wait lists. I understand that argument even though I don’t like it. Please just don’t tell me that this bill will reduce carbon by putting more EVs on the road, while reducing inflation at the same time. Anybody who thinks that, probably works in Washington DC, not in the actual world.

Lots of stuff to argue about in the bill, that is undeniable. It’s really hard to know what effect it will have. I personally do not like putting a price cap for getting an EV tax credit. An EV should get a tax credit regardless of the price of the car, in my humble opinion. I realize many will disagree. Just didn’t make that much sense to me personally. It seems like it will penalize companies like Rivian and Lucid, which are great American start ups. No doubt the legacy automakers had a lot of influence here.I do like the emphasis on renewables the bill seems to include, but naturally, I didn’t read the whole thing, so who really knows.

Anyway, who really cares . I hope everyone really enjoys their new Lucid , regardless of whether they love the bill or hate it!!

 

[Drendino]

@

Rivian is not a mainstream “average American” brand, nor are they trying to be.. they are upper/mid luxury. A Bolt is 30k.

Tesla is not far off in MSRP either.

So strange how often Rivian is mentioned here as an example as if they’re the only other EV maker

@stratus stated it better than I could at this hour. This is an EV forum for a high end brand, so most of us here are going to feel a certain way about a bill that strips away the tax credit. They will feel the same way on every forum that sells EVs over 60k. Over at the Chevy Bolt forum, I suspect they will agree with you. Agree to disagree.

 

[n8236]

Personally, I think this was a part of Manchin's goal/desires... he is a petro-chemical line-my-pocket sorta guy (not sure why he identifies as Blue, but personally still glad he does).

This is interesting. Had the bill been EV friendly, wouldn’t the US be handing China the future production of battery production and bolstering their auto industry to out-compete the USA makers with no leverage?

 

[Daniel2022AT]

I don't believe the conspiracy whatsoever..

The new bill incentives the auto mfgs heavily to reduce costs and increase their own investments into EVs. More corporate investment = stronger effect of economies of scale = lower MSRPs = more incentives to the public.

Plus, the US is increasingly SUV dominated, which is the 80k price point

The EV incentive is a consumer incentive to persuade consumers to purchase a vehicle. I think it is a useful way to convince a consumer a take a chance on a new unproven start up brand. The EV incentive is not a manufacturer incentive and it would have little impact on manufacturing strategy. Manufacturers do get impacted (negatively) by the bill’s reduction of the accelerated depreciation investment tax credit. Manufacturers will have reduced incentive to make large capital investments. This harms the ability to invest in domestic battery production. Also by taxing share buybacks it reduces the efficiency for corporations to return capital to shareholders. All of these are directionally adverse to the growth of the EV industry.