Review of sapphire by MKB

Leftlane said:

If I had the money the Sapphire would be at the top of my list . . . .

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That's an interesting comment from someone who owns a 911 Turbo. A fully tricked-out Taycan costs more than a Sapphire, indicating where prices might be heading for the best production performance cars. The Sapphire might not long be as much a price outlier as a lot of people think.

Given how well the interior is holding up and how solid the body structure remains on our early Air Dream Edition, a used Sapphire in a couple of years could look like a good deal . . . assuming anyone will let got of one.

hmp10 said:

That's an interesting comment from someone who owns a 911 Turbo. A fully tricked-out Taycan costs more than a Sapphire, indicating where prices might be heading for the best production performance cars. The Sapphire might not long be as much a price outlier as a lot of people think.

Given how well the interior is holding up and how solid the body structure remains on our early Air Dream Edition, a used Sapphire in a couple of years could look like a good deal . . . assuming anyone will let got of one.

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Have you seen the cost trend of EVs? Performance or not, cost has been trending down generally (except for the Taycan). Just look at our own Air specs priced currently or the Plaid compared to what it was. Unless it is limited production, a used Sapphire might end up listing for more than a new one.

Tesla is influencing the cost of EVs.

hmp10 said:

That's an interesting comment from someone who owns a 911 Turbo. A fully tricked-out Taycan costs more than a Sapphire, indicating where prices might be heading for the best production performance cars. The Sapphire might not long be as much a price outlier as a lot of people think.

Given how well the interior is holding up and how solid the body structure remains on our early Air Dream Edition, a used Sapphire in a couple of years could look like a good deal . . . assuming anyone will let got of one.

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I agree, as the 911 Turbo is also a very expensive car (brand new, almost 200k). However, I do have to correct you about the Taycan; a Turbo GT is around 230k. When you add all the ridiculous Porsche options (and probably a markup?), it will be more than the Sapphire. It however is more track focused than the Sapphire and lacks all the luxuries and space of the Lucid. It remains to be seen when that car gets into the hands of reviewers, and I hope a publication does a direct comparison between them. I actually think both cars are appealing to a slightly different audience, with the Taycan being more of a "track machine/mountain carver" while the Sapphire is more of a "GT." Obviously that doesn't make either car worse at doing the other purpose, but based on the spec sheets we have seen that seems to be the case. We will have to wait for a detailed review between the two to make a conclusion on that.

AlignTrex said:

Have you seen the cost trend of EVs? Performance or not, cost has been trending down. Just look at our own Air specs priced currently or the Plaid compared to what it was. Unless it is limited production, a used Sapphire might end up listing for more than a new one.

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I disagree. You can't just say "performance or not" when this category of "hyper-sedans" is just setting up shop. The Air currently starts at less than the Model S. It has worse specs on a SPREADSHEET.. but in real life, the difference between the experiences are quite stark. I do wish the Pure came with a glass roof, but that is my only qualm with it.

Elon really does know what Tesla fanboys want.. numbers on a spreadsheet. It's been proven time and time again with the Plaid and the "2020" Roadster. Also, you mean IF it is limited production, a Sapphire would list for more than a new one, right (which I also disagree with)?

Well, my 911 turbo is a 2004 that I bought in 2011 for less than $50k. Don’t think I’ve ever bought myself a brand new car - my Cayenne was a certified 2 year old when I got it for $60k, and my Tesla S Plaid is a 22 that I bought this year. Even if I could afford it, no way I could bring myself to spend a quarter of a million on a single car, as much as I would love to have it. Depreciation is a bitch on everything, especially new EVs. I’m glad there are plenty of people who can afford to buy new so I can buy certified a few years later.

xponents said:

It [Taycan Turbo GT] however is more track focused than the Sapphire and lacks all the luxuries and space of the Lucid.

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Given that the space and luxury comes with Air territory, what could Lucid have done to make the Sapphire more track focused when put into "Track" mode? The glass roof was replaced with carbon fiber to reduce weight and lower the center of gravity. The front seats were reconfigured for cornering loads. The tires were specially developed for low rolling resistance and high lateral grip. The carbon ceramic brakes, being from continuously woven fibers, are at the top tier of carbon disc technology. The already superb suspension and aerodynamics of the Air were heavily reworked for the Sapphire. Lucid developed its own unique milli-second-cycle traction control system. The car has an "Endurance" sub-mode that lengthens the racing range of the car. Screen displays are augmented with track-related metrics.

I haven't paid enough attention to the Taycan to answer this question myself, but what more has Porsche done to make a production Taycan more track focused than the Sapphire? Its lower level of luxury and space originates with the base Taycan design doesn't it, not with anything relating to track optimization?

What could Lucid have done to make it more track focused? Flippant answer: offer a rear seat delete option like the Weissach package! Maybe call it the Newark package. On second thought, maybe not. It doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

hmp10 said:

Given that the space and luxury comes with Air territory, what could Lucid have done to make the Sapphire more track focused when put into "Track" mode? The glass roof was replaced with carbon fiber to reduce weight and lower the center of gravity. The front seats were reconfigured for cornering loads. The tires were specially developed for low rolling resistance and high lateral grip. The carbon ceramic brakes, being from continuously woven fibers, are at the top tier of carbon disc technology. The already superb suspension and aerodynamics of the Air were heavily reworked for the Sapphire. Lucid developed its own unique milli-second-cycle traction control system. The car has an "Endurance" sub-mode that lengthens the racing range of the car. Screen displays are augmented with track-related metrics.

I haven't paid enough attention to the Taycan to answer this question myself, but what more has Porsche done to make a production Taycan more track focused than the Sapphire? Its lower level of luxury and space originates with the base Taycan design doesn't it, not with anything relating to track optimization?

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You’re right in that the Sapphire can definitely be amazing on a track. That is why I bolded the word “more,” as their focuses do not stop them from being good at the opposing sides strength.

Now… what could Lucid have done to make it more track focused (or rather, what ahs the Taycan done to make it more track focused)? Comparing it to the Turbo GT: they could have added more extreme aero, stickier tires (a “true” R compound tire), slightly wider tires, and they could have undergone a more extensive weight reduction regimen (Porsche went to the extremes of removing the rear seats on the WP, but there are many other things Lucid can do). All of these things are things on the Porsche, and they make it more track foccused but with less practicality. Adding these things to the Air would make it better on the track at the expense of practicality.

Now, SHOULD Lucid do these things? No. However, the Taycan is more track focused for it, even though it is compromised in other ways. I still think I would take the Sapphire over it, since it is far more useful!

xponents said:

Porsche went to the extremes of removing the rear seats on the WP, but there are many other things Lucid can do.

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Yet the dual-motor Taycan Turbo GT with the Weissach track package still weighs over 130 pounds more than a tri-motor Tesla Model S Plaid.

And the Turbo GT WP only weighs 536 pounds less than a Sapphire. Given that the pre-2025 Turbo GT has a battery pack with a gross 93.4 kWh capacity compared to the Sapphire's 118 kWh pack, a large part of the Sapphire's additional weight probably lies in its battery pack. I'm not really sure Sapphire had all that much more it could do short of silliness to take out additional weight.

All Porsche proved with the GT WP is that, if your sole goal is to go as fast on a racetrack as humanly possible, a sedan is not the smart way to go. Otherwise, you'll end up doing such inane things as taking the rear seats out of a 4-door car.

It's this kind of nonsense that makes treating race numbers as the be-all and end-all of automotive supremacy so absurd to me. I view it much as ski competition, where tiny fractions of a second make the difference between winning and losing between two skiers who might have raced minutes or even hours apart, during which time weather and track conditions changed enough to themselves be responsible for more than the difference between the two skiers' capabilities.

hmp10 said:

Yet the dual-motor Taycan Turbo GT with the Weissach track package still weighs over 130 pounds more than a tri-motor Tesla Model S Plaid.

And the Turbo GT WP only weighs 536 pounds less than a Sapphire. Given that the pre-2025 Turbo GT has a battery pack with a gross 93.4 kWh capacity compared to the Sapphire's 118 kWh pack, a large part of the Sapphire's additional weight probably lies in its battery pack. I'm not really sure Sapphire had all that much more it could do short of silliness to take out additional weight.

All Porsche proved with the GT WP is that, if your sole goal is to go as fast on a racetrack as humanly possible, a sedan is not the smart way to go. Otherwise, you'll end up doing such inane things as taking the rear seats out of a 4-door car.

It's this kind of nonsense that makes treating race numbers as the be-all and end-all of automotive supremacy so absurd to me. I view it much as ski competition, where tiny fractions of a second make the difference between winning and losing between two skiers who might have raced minutes or even hours apart, during which time weather and track conditions changed enough to themselves be responsible for more than the difference between the two skiers' capabilities.

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This is what I completely agree with and is also the reason I prefer the Sapphire: Who in the world is tracking their large, luxury EV sedan? Sedans are meant for comfortable travel with 4-5 people, and doing things as idiotic as removing rear seats is not smart. The Sapphire is a far better daily driver sedan, while the Taycan is compromised in that area.

As an aside.. does anybody know why the Model S is so light? I’ve noticed this with ALL of Teslas models, and they are consistently lighter than their competitors. Using less solid and lighter materials (which would explain a lot) could be one factor, is there anything else?

Maybe some kind of exotic cooling that would allow the batteries to reject more heat so you can lap the car longer under full power.

I'm sure they look at microtube radiators but they are expensive as all hell, and I imagine any contamination in the fluid would cause all sorts of blockage issues. There is probably a limit in the viscosity of the fluid used?

I love how most of this thread was highjacked by dorks that can't stop ranting about the key fob.

Also: The Sapphire is probably the greatest daily driver ever made.

cgm9999 said:

I love how most of this thread was highjacked by dorks that can't stop ranting about the key fob.

Also: The Sapphire is probably the greatest daily driver ever made.

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It was Brownleee who included his experience with getting into the car in his review, thus bringing it into a discussion about the car and his review. As Brownlee does not mention it, there is no indication he knew the history of how fast some of the fobs burn through batteries. All he was experiencing was a battery going dead in a key fob, something that happens to every key fob in the industry that uses replaceable batteries. Thus I found it odd that he chose to include it in his review. But there it is in a review that is approaching 1 million reviews.

Unlike you, most of the "dorks" who are talking about the key fob are actual owners of Lucid Airs who have grappled with key fob issues and have every right to discuss it on a "Lucid Owners" forum when a prominent car reviewer draws attention to it.

xponents said:

As an aside.. does anybody know why the Model S is so light?

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The Model S has always had low torsional rigidity relative to other sedans in it size and price class. I noticed it in our 2015 Tesla. At the time we bought that car, the Tesla store and delivery center was in Deerfield Beach, FL in a light industrial complex that had a train track right behind the building. You had to cross over the track going and coming to the Tesla operation, and I detected cowl shake in every Tesla I ever drove over that crossing.

I assumed it had been addressed with the new generation Model S, a car which, although looking very similar to the earlier Model S, shared almost no body panels. But our 2021 Model S Plaid began to develop squeaks and groans in its rear quarters by the 10,000-mile mark while our Lucid Air with over twice the mileage remains rock solid and quiet.

If you have any experience with MB S Class or BMW 7 Series or Audi A8 cars or Lucid Airs, try opening and closing the doors of a Model S. There's a noticeable lack of heft in the Model S doors. And the Model S seats are thinner and narrower than the seats in those other cars, lacking some of the adjustment and massage functions.

Basically, the Model S is just not a very substantial car in terms of torsional rigidity. It was one of Rawlinson's issues when he was given the Model S shell to work with in the original car, it's one of the reasons a Tesla suspension is tuned for less compliance than other cars in the class, and it is something that still remains. If you take into account how much lighter the Lucid motors are than the Tesla motors, you see that even more of that weight difference lies in the Tesla's less substantial body structure.

cgm9999 said:

Also: The Sapphire is probably the greatest daily driver ever made.

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That's your opinion, but it is not everyone's.

I think the Sapphire is the best ultra-high-performance sports sedan ever made, and I long grappled with a decision about whether to replace our Air Dream Performance with a Sapphire, as I am something of an acceleration junkie. However, I do not track my cars, and there were too many trade-offs for the Sapphire to become my preferred daily driver -- and the Air Dream P already had more acceleration punch than can be used on public roads. (Even though our Plaid is a tick quicker, the Air's ability to keep the front end planted under hard acceleration makes its power more accessible than the Tesla's.)

I did not want to lose the glass canopy which, with the Air's high belt line, really opens up the interior visually. For the same reason, I did not want the dark interior palette of the Sapphire. I did not want the prominent side bolsters of the front seats or to replace the sumptuous feel of the Nappa leather with Alcantara seating surfaces. I did not want any more suspension stiffness than the Air Dream. Our Model S Plaid, which has the same wider tire cross sections as the Sapphire, tramlines on certain roads in our area, and I did not want to risk that trait in the Air. For driving on road trips, I even worried about whether most tire shops would have the equipment to get the center-lock wheels off the car in case of a flat.

Yet the Sapphire powertrain still drew me. I even went so far as to call Zak Edson, Lucid's VP of Sales and Service, to see if would be possible to get an Air Dream or Grand Touring interior installed in a Sapphire but was told no.

So . . . as superb as the Sapphire is on so many fronts and as friendly as it can still be for most daily driving, many people might justifiably not see it as the greatest daily driver ever made.

hmp10 said:

Yet the Sapphire powertrain still drew me. I even went so far as to call Zak Edson, Lucid's VP of Sales and Service, to see if would be possible to get an Air Dream or Grand Touring interior installed in a Sapphire but was told no.

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Haha you and I are similar people, it would appear.

borski said:

Haha you and I are similar people, it would appear.

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Just curious... is there a reason that wouldn't be possible (yes, there are a million, just hear me out)? My reasoning is that I've seen a limited number of "custom" Sapphire builds, one example being the Sapphire apparently upholstered in vegan leather with the standard Air seats.. I can understand their refusal of being able to put a glass roof on it, narrower tires, etc, but if that vegan leather build was possible (or even real), why not permit the addition of the GT/DE interior?

xponents said:

Just curious... is there a reason that wouldn't be possible (yes, there are a million, just hear me out)? My reasoning is that I've seen a limited number of "custom" Sapphire builds, one example being the Sapphire apparently upholstered in vegan leather with the standard Air seats.. I can understand their refusal of being able to put a glass roof on it, narrower tires, etc, but if that vegan leather build was possible (or even real), why not permit the addition of the GT/DE interior?

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I’m not sure what vegan leather build you’re talking about.

Also, to be fair, I didn’t ask Zak. I’m perfectly happy with my DE, and while I’d love to upgrade to the Sapphire, the glass roof alone is enough for me to stick with the DE. As a daily driver, it’s perfect.

The sapphire is a better car and I imagine handles even better and/or incomparably, but the DE is the best handling car I’ve ever driven. The other reason is I didn’t want to redo the PPF and radar/laser, since that adds on fairly significant cost.

If I were in a GT I might feel differently.

borski said:

I’m not sure what vegan leather build you’re talking about.

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If it's real and not the latest edition of "rep BS," both of these would back that up (and they were also at the same location).

xponents said:

DMV Lucid Owners

Just saw this thread. Been pretty busy trying to meet some other deadlines lately. I probably won't be able to join another meet up until after June.

lucidowners.com

Most beautiful car color ever!

Was in the Tysons Galleria studio to see the Gravity (which is instead at Tysons Corner) but the SA showed me a Sapphire he had sold but had fallen through. It is simply the most beautiful color car I have seen. Photos don’t come close to capturing it. The car is spectacular in every way. I’ve...

lucidowners.com

If it's real and not the latest edition of "rep BS," both of these would back that up (and they were also at the same location).

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It’s possible it was a prototype sold off the floor. Anyway, I’m not sure.

borski said:

It’s possible it was a prototype sold off the floor. Anyway, I’m not sure.

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Well, if it is indeed number 61 as stated, then it would just be a normal production car. I'm not sure either, although I'd speculate that with the "right" amount of money, they would do anything you want!