New Tech Talk with Rawlinson, Drive Unit: Motor

[Sam6062]

And they need to stop making cars that die in the middle of a freeway!

Thanks for saying that. Software becomes very important when it is the only way to control all the functions on the Car including Safety.

They sacrificed some very important things because they were enamored by their own motor.

Also they cannot be a serious competition for Tesla for a while. With the Sapphire it clearly shows that they know,this and have decided to play with MB BMW PORSCHE and other high end ICE Performance cars.

HYDBOB put it best that he believes he has a milli0n dollar performance car for 200k and it makes sense IF/WHEN it is Safe and reliable. Quality will make or break them over the next two years. They definitely have the range and performance down.

 

[JerseyStrong]

I believe early on in an interview or one of their pr videos, Peter indicated that software was not his expertise and this has now become the Air’s Achilles heel. I am hoping that Derrick Carty can not only remedy what is broken, but also lead in creating software for some of the functions one would assume to be in the Air. Even though I am a bit disappointed in the amount of de-contenting of the Pure, I am thrilled to be getting this level of innovative technology at this price point. They have a great bulb, now if they can only get the light switch to work!

 

[Bunnylebowski]

I think it’s pretty mind blowing that Lucid managed to out-engineer Porsche by making this motor with literally double the power density. Absolutely amazing. I can understand them beating Tesla because Peter probably knew all their tricks and also couldn’t implement them in the Lucid due to risk of patent infringement, so instead he just embraced his no-corners cut attitude when it comes to engineering and hired some damn good people to pull off this revolutionary design.

And yes we all know the amazing hardware makes the software look even more weak by comparison, it’s just so lovely how any time anyone says something good about the car you’ve got the regulars in here jumping in to shit on the software. Next I suppose someone while chime in about “why doesn’t my $150k car have CarPlay yet waawaaawaaa”. Meanwhile I’m looking at my $139K car that has a drive unit that mops the floor with Porsche and Tesla technology and feeling like I got a bargain. It’s ok with me if they put my phone features on their screen at a later date, cuz I already have a phone and can still use it if needed

 

[SDHacker]

You mean "that can't shift into Neutral"?

Pretty sure he means to include cars that went into Turtle mode, suffered 12V system failures, drive unit failures, and HV system failures - all which results in cars being undriveable.

 

[SDHacker]

Also they cannot be a serious competition for Tesla for a while. With the Sapphire it clearly shows that they know,this and have decided to play with MB BMW PORSCHE and other high end ICE Performance cars.

While I agree that Lucid can't be a serious competitor with T until they come out with M3/MY competitors, totally disagree with the 2nd sentence. How many reviews have you read or seen that talks up Lucid except that they point out that the Plaid is faster, with less HP than the DE-P and about the same HP as the GT-P? People who don't dig into details about the cars (and there seem to be plenty as evidenced by several members on this forum) can take from just that fact that the Plaid is the superior car - less HP but faster. I think it was important for Lucid to establish their hardware superiority in numbers - faster 0-60, 1/4 mile, top speed.

 

[Dkars1]

Okay, this is super cool. It's over an hour long, but, wow, there are some really smart people behind this car! He goes into a lot of detail on some amazing innovations that allowed them to make the motors so small and lightweight.

I do have to say. The way that he writes "x" freaks me out a little.

How about that differential?! So small it fits inside the rotor shaft (which is hollow!) Very impressive engineering no matter how you slice it.

 

[HC_79]

Not one negative word about the 4680 cell disaster in both concept and execution. The 4680 pack teardown showed an unmitigated disaster but they say not a word against it.

I haven’t seen it. What’s so bad about it? All I hear is people raving about how it’s the next big thing and BMW, etc are all jumping onboard

 

[Rogue]

I guess my point is that it seems odd that they couldn't have done both the solid engineering platform AND the software. Not being critical, just my lack of understanding

There was mention in another comment about Peter Rawlinson not having a strong background/expertise on software. If the initial approach was ad-hoc, then they are already buried in technical debt. I am not sure how widespread that term is for other fields, but it more or less embodies the cost from inefficiency in design and implementation in regards to forward progress of development. The undertaking of solid engineering from a software perspective with long-term outlooks is equally culture, awareness, and experience driven from the top down. An equivalent person to Peter Rawlinson for the traditional engineering would have been necessary from the outset or strong internal motivation.

As a software engineer, I have seen many, many projects drowning in technical debt with development reduced to a snail's space. If this is in fact the case, the hope would be for the new head of software to focus efforts on making the software robust from a design and implementation standpoint. This may even be the case with the "major" update and hot patches leading up to it. A strong foundation to build upon, much like traditional engineering, will bring forth the features and capabilities we want faster in the long run. I think his background is Apple? They have solid software and best practices, regardless of being an Apple fan or not.

Someone mentioned a possible culling of the initial software engineers in a different thread. I would argue this signifies the first steps in revitalizing the core software, similar to dropping all those high executive people.

 

[LCIDdreams]

I haven’t seen it. What’s so bad about it? All I hear is people raving about how it’s the next big thing and BMW, etc are all jumping onboard

As far as I can tell it just a different size of battery casing (larger compared to the AA-like cells in other Teslas, Lucid and others). Probably a bit cheaper to make because you have fewer cells to make and assemble together to make a pack, but not exactly exciting.

 

[hydbob]

As far as I can tell it just a different size of battery casing (larger compared to the AA-like cells in other Teslas, Lucid and others). Probably a bit cheaper to make because you have fewer cells to make and assemble together to make a pack, but not exactly exciting.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1569429825399541763

Guy did a teardown and essentially Elon lied out his teeth about the battery

 

[HC_79]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1569429825399541763

Guy did a teardown and essentially Elon lied out his teeth about the battery

So Peter called it in the early days that it was nothing special and Sandy told him the stfu

 

[Bunnylebowski]

So Peter called it in the early days that it was nothing special and Sandy told him the stfu

Sandy seems like a bullshitter to me. His tear downs are interesting and helpful but I always feel like I’m watching a Tesla informercial. It was informative searching his MachE tear down, that thing is a mess of wires and disorganization underneath, and Sandy is reasonably critical of Tesla but also he doesn’t seem to know very much about the cars he’s checking out, like he seemed barely aware of the Lucid or anything about it, which seems odd given that’s his whole job is to know things.

 

[joec]

There was mention in another comment about Peter Rawlinson not having a strong background/expertise on software. If the initial approach was ad-hoc, then they are already buried in technical debt. I am not sure how widespread that term is for other fields, but it more or less embodies the cost from inefficiency in design and implementation in regards to forward progress of development. The undertaking of solid engineering from a software perspective with long-term outlooks is equally culture, awareness, and experience driven from the top down. An equivalent person to Peter Rawlinson for the traditional engineering would have been necessary from the outset or strong internal motivation.

As a software engineer, I have seen many, many projects drowning in technical debt with development reduced to a snail's space. If this is in fact the case, the hope would be for the new head of software to focus efforts on making the software robust from a design and implementation standpoint. This may even be the case with the "major" update and hot patches leading up to it. A strong foundation to build upon, much like traditional engineering, will bring forth the features and capabilities we want faster in the long run. I think his background is Apple? They have solid software and best practices, regardless of being an Apple fan or not.

Someone mentioned a possible culling of the initial software engineers in a different thread. I would argue this signifies the first steps in revitalizing the core software, similar to dropping all those high executive people.

Agreed. They dropped the ball on software, no question. What gives me hope is they seem to have finally hired the right people to build that solid foundation now. So I'm willing to give the team a bit of time to get all their ducks in a row. Once that is done, Lucid has the potential to be a leader in automotive software, the same way they are in the driving tech. As crazy as that may sound to anyone who is currently living with all the "quirks" of the current Air. All of the components are there in the computer hardware of the car for incredible things. They just have to execute them. But first thing's first: build that foundation that should have been there a year ago.

The thing I've noticed about Peter Rawlinson so far is that he makes mistakes but eventually comes around to fixing them. Even if that means firing people and getting new blood on the team.

 

[hydbob]

Sandy seems like a bullshitter to me. His tear downs are interesting and helpful but I always feel like I’m watching a Tesla informercial. It was informative searching his MachE tear down, that thing is a mess of wires and disorganization underneath, and Sandy is reasonably critical of Tesla but also he doesn’t seem to know very much about the cars he’s checking out, like he seemed barely aware of the Lucid or anything about it, which seems odd given that’s his whole job is to know things.

Sandy is a shill. His whole business is to do a tear down and sell that info to companies right? Wouldn't that mean he should be trying his hardest to tear a Lucid apart and sell all that nifty packaging and motor tech and whatever to every single EV maker? The fact that he hasn't shows all we need to know.

 

[JerseyStrong]

I think it’s pretty mind blowing that Lucid managed to out-engineer Porsche by making this motor with literally double the power density. Absolutely amazing. I can understand them beating Tesla because Peter probably knew all their tricks and also couldn’t implement them in the Lucid due to risk of patent infringement, so instead he just embraced his no-corners cut attitude when it comes to engineering and hired some damn good people to pull off this revolutionary design.

And yes we all know the amazing hardware makes the software look even more weak by comparison, it’s just so lovely how any time anyone says something good about the car you’ve got the regulars in here jumping in to shit on the software. Next I suppose someone while chime in about “why doesn’t my $150k car have CarPlay yet waawaaawaaa”. Meanwhile I’m looking at my $139K car that has a drive unit that mops the floor with Porsche and Tesla technology and feeling like I got a bargain. It’s ok with me if they put my phone features on their screen at a later date, cuz I already have a phone and can still use it if needed

I agree that some rants seem petty, but others are genuine issues that should not be glossed over. The thought of my wife accidentally hitting the stalk and shifting into neutral going down Signal Mountain is scary.

 

[FastEddi3]

How about that differential?! So small it fits inside the rotor shaft (which is hollow!) Very impressive engineering no matter how you slice it.

That is pretty mind blowing. Putting before the transmission to reduce the torque, thus allowing you to make it smaller, is such an obvious solution in retrospect. There are a whole mess of intellectual property (patents) that he just discussed that have a bunch of engineers at other companies going "Can't believe we didn't think of that!"

And they will continue to refine that technology. They'll be able to engineer the CNC to cut thinner wires to maximize surface current along with a couple of other things that should increase current density, and therefore, power. There seem to be some obvious next steps without even pulling more tricks out of their hats.

 

[FastEddi3]

I like the comments about the "American Company" lol! Like we don't know who that is. The shade he throws coming across as innocent comments is hilarious. They compared the motor to Tesla and Porsche by the look of it and then broke down the weight and HP per Kg

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Overall, the Lucid motor is very impressive. The challenge for them is going to be getting future cars into mass production if they really want to be a competitor in the EV space. If they can get the best efficiency on a smaller battery pack to offer a cheaper model than its competitors, Lucid could find themselves in a very promising position. Time will tell how successful they can be battling it out with the competition

Yes, that leap in power density is crazy. When you compare to other motors, they are all a few to a dozen percentage points behind. To jump up by a factor of 2 is impressive.

And agreed, the amount of subtle shade that he throws is legendary! When you compare the engineering side by side, the "American Company" looks really sloppy! And it's true, on tear downs, their tolerances are really sloppy plus they are coasting on decade old engineering just repackaged in different shapes.

 

[WildRide47]

I think it’s pretty mind blowing that Lucid managed to out-engineer Porsche by making this motor with literally double the power density. Absolutely amazing. I can understand them beating Tesla because Peter probably knew all their tricks and also couldn’t implement them in the Lucid due to risk of patent infringement, so instead he just embraced his no-corners cut attitude when it comes to engineering and hired some damn good people to pull off this revolutionary design.

And yes we all know the amazing hardware makes the software look even more weak by comparison, it’s just so lovely how any time anyone says something good about the car you’ve got the regulars in here jumping in to shit on the software. Next I suppose someone while chime in about “why doesn’t my $150k car have CarPlay yet waawaaawaaa”. Meanwhile I’m looking at my $139K car that has a drive unit that mops the floor with Porsche and Tesla technology and feeling like I got a bargain. It’s ok with me if they put my phone features on their screen at a later date, cuz I already have a phone and can still use it if needed

As a former Porsche owner(5 cars in the last 25 years) I agree with you completely. My last Porsche 2018 Panamera Turbo was 170k. My present AGT at 139K is a bargain compared to Porsche. And I agree the software glitches I can live with knowing that hopefully, they will eventually be corrected.

 

[WildRide47]

As a former Porsche owner(5 cars in the last 25 years) I agree with you completely. My last Porsche 2018 Panamera Turbo was 170k. My present AGT at 139K is a bargain compared to Porsche. And I agree the software glitches I can live with knowing that hopefully, they will eventually be corrected.

I even went to my Porsche salesman who I have known for years and let him test drive my AGT(while I was in the front passenger seat). He was impressed as well.

 

[borski]

Any car that stops working leaving the driver stranded!

Sure, but the “shift into neutral” issue doesn’t leave the driver stranded as much as “should be explained better or raise an obvious alert”