Mods, I'm all for free speech, but at a certain point I do think we have to call a spade a spade. Mobada is either a troll or is just instigating. They have almost 100 posts since joining, all in somewhat aggressive support/defense of Tesla since recently joining. This is not conducive to a functioning forum.
Out of Spec roadtrips Gravity and DDP2 has some issues
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Ironic that this is more/less the same issue that they pulled freeway 5 months ago
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You were right and I was wrong. I checked news coverage, found nothing about a new halt (apart from the CHP article), and treated that as proof it hadn't happened. The in-app notice you posted beats an absence of headlines.
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All good, but still off topic for the thread, and the forum.
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Sorry, I thought the Waymo post was in the LiDAR thread but seems every thread @mobada posts in is to either praise FSD or criticize Waymo.
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I don't know what the actual data shows, but I agree it is what should ultimately be listened to. But as far as I'm aware, we don't have good data to analyze. NHTSA has some crash reporting requirements, but they say they don't have miles driven data, and so they cannot calculate crash frequency. Tesla uses their data to hype their technology, but refuses to release enough of it to third parties to get an independent confirmation. For Lucid, they seem to have no released data of any kind, aside from the aforementioned crash reports to NHTSA that aren't enough to really assess the system. I haven't tried to see what data is available for Blue Cruise and the like.
This right here is one of the problems I have with it. FSD customers are paying to be guinea pigs.
Tesla FSD is the only system in the EU approved for hands free driving on city streets and that can make autonomous decisions
They did it by having it independently tested for more than a million miles and performing more than 4500 closed scenarios on a track
We have good data and it's right there under your nose. It's called operating 1300 vehicles with no supervisor with exactly the same technology found in consumer cars.
It will be years before anybody else has this level of accident avoidance
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This is no different from anyone else paying for an ADAS system?
Rivian tests on consumers. Lucid tests on consumers.
The difference is tesla actually prioritized safety by limiting who had access and prioritizing safety over adding new features.
The issue now is everyone wants a point to point driving system but can't match FSD safety. So they prioritize adding as many driving features as possible (and making the system hands free) when it's not safe.
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I'm not in that forum but there is a tesla forum that has a section on AI/Autonomous progress for every type of car out there
There are a bunch of detractors in that forum (because everyone hates elon), but one thing that is interesting about that forum is no one is ignorant of the technology or what others have.
All of those detractors have more/less not commented in the last couple months because it is alarming what tesla is doing and they recognize it.
it's also become increasingly clear that the systems from the chinese, wayve, nvidia alpanmayo, etc. are simply not good
If you looked at the forum about a year ago (when alpanmayo, wavye, chinese, etc.) all had good driving demos, people thought the moat of FSD was gone. It turns out that these systems are simply not good.
I’m just glad you’re drawing all the heat away from me
Let's try this. @mobada , let's get some sort of explanation or description of your qualifications to make the claims you make.
I simply grabbed a paragraph from a couple pages ago.
Not for tesla. You assume that they will drive materially any different with lidar. They won't. They'll drive exactly the same as they do for 99.99% of scenarios and maybe use lidar to see cross traffic or something like that. Keep in mind FSD has the best accident avoidance in the world with camera only. It's only going to get better. If this is the worst robotaxi will ever perform, that is saying something.
Where are the facts? "They won't". Sounds like an opinion. "99.99% of scenarios..." Doubtfully scientifically based. "Maybe use lidar... or something like that" Maybe? "Best accident avoidance in the world..." Sounds like an opinion again. "It's only going to get better." Opinion again?
You have some really, really expert and knowledgeable people in this forum, so please don't shove your opinion down our collective throats. Give us verifiable facts, independently verifiable, give us your opinion but don't try to mask it as fact. The beautiful part of this place is we're all entitled to our opinions, however as soon as we start treating our own opinions as facts, we lose the attention of others and, more importantly, lose our own credibility within the group.
Your thoughts may be different - ain't America wonderful?
I simply grabbed a paragraph from a couple pages ago.
Not for tesla. You assume that they will drive materially any different with lidar. They won't. They'll drive exactly the same as they do for 99.99% of scenarios and maybe use lidar to see cross traffic or something like that. Keep in mind FSD has the best accident avoidance in the world with camera only. It's only going to get better. If this is the worst robotaxi will ever perform, that is saying something.
Where are the facts? "They won't". Sounds like an opinion. "99.99% of scenarios..." Doubtfully scientifically based. "Maybe use lidar... or something like that" Maybe? "Best accident avoidance in the world..." Sounds like an opinion again. "It's only going to get better." Opinion again?
You have some really, really expert and knowledgeable people in this forum, so please don't shove your opinion down our collective throats. Give us verifiable facts, independently verifiable, give us your opinion but don't try to mask it as fact. The beautiful part of this place is we're all entitled to our opinions, however as soon as we start treating our own opinions as facts, we lose the attention of others and, more importantly, lose our own credibility within the group.
Your thoughts may be different - ain't America wonderful?
Tesla is operating 1300 vehicles with no lidar. That means they have a safety level to do unsupervised with camera only. They know they have a safety level to drive with camera only because they have billions of miles that tells them this, billions of miles of simulation as well, and they know what the limitations of their system are.
They are scaling at a fast rate, which means the limiting factor of scaling is not driving tech anymore but it is the path to scaling their technology. They are operating on high speed roads (50mph), operating at night, and in inclement weather.
if this is the worst that tesla ever performs they will always improve, as the highest resolution and highest framerate sensor available for self driving is vision. Lidar also has the similar failure modes as cameras so it's not like that really fixes as much as people think it does.
The other thing is people don't understand how much a camera can already see at night time. The cameras used for self driving are not normal cameras. They are automotive cameras night designed for cinematic images, but to capture high dynamic range. Just take a raw image from a camera in what appears to be complete darkness and gain it up. You can see an alarming amount of details.
here's an example of this. This is a simple video from the actionvfx website. It looks like just a fire, with blackness around it. If you download the raw image and you gain it up, you can see there are entire teams of people standing in the background. You can see buildings, you can see actually a lot of stuff. So in what appears like a video with nothing there, there's actually several people which are clearly visible and very easy to avoid.
This means you have a safety level to do unsupervised already which clearly tesla does. And they have one that works at night, in the rain and on high speed roads
Adding more sensors consumes more memory bandwidth, increases processing required, and of course increases latency. Therefore at any given moment you always want to process the least amount of sensors possible.
you would only use a lidar to fix a deficiency. In tesla's case the cameras positioned on the side of the car are placed a little far back which makes viewing cross traffic a little hard without creeping far. In this case having corner radar (lidar would not be used here) would theoretically in the future make a difference for certain intersections, but at the same time, again, your driving will always improve.
The most obvious example of this is tesla has a bumper camera. It is not used for on-road driving. Humans do not use it for driving and therefore it is an extra input that slows response time. On the other hand, in a parking lot scenario when your car first takes off, it is necessary to use this camera to see what is in front of the car. Therefore you can prioritize when the camera is used based on speed of driving. Lower speed driving requires lower reaction time.
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People like making this comparison but it’s not actually valid, as accidents are not equally comparable. Do robotaxis make mistakes and get into crashes humans wouldn’t? If so, how much of that is acceptable?
Without the answer to that, simply counting the number of crashes does not make a case, as drivers are not equally skilled.
For the *average* driver, it is almost certainly better. For *good* drivers, it may not be yet.
And the problem, of course, is everyone thinks they’re a good driver.
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Tesla is not “improving at a faster rate.” If you want to make this assertion, you’ll need to justify it with proof.
Every system has occasional ways in which it fails, Tesla included. This doesn’t make your case, unless your goal is to imply Tesla has “finished” and never has issues that need fixing.
If you’re not saying that, this is not a point.
Repeating the same statement does not make it true.
“Obvious” is not true, and you need to justify this if you want to make this assertion. It is not “obvious” that Tesla is better in any way. A good indicator of this is they still are not testing without a driver.
You are stating opinions as facts. You need to provide evidence if you want to have a fruitful discussion.
I don’t know the anecdote you’re referring to, but is your implication that Tesla has not had issues? Otherwise, this is, again, not a point.
I won’t, but could, point to countless issues Tesla still has today. what did it perform like in 2021?!
You have yet to provide evidence. You have provided conjecture and opinions.
That’s fine, but do not get upset when someone calls you out for it.
If you were to provide evidence, I’d love that, and we could engage in a real conversation. Instead, you’ve chosen to insult. That’s not an argument.
Okay?
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Heard. For now, please use ignore at will.
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Please stop spreading misinformation
1) Tesla had to change the name to “Tesla Assisted Driving” specifically because FSD was a lie, and the EU would not let them do it. It is not autonomous, and it requires supervision at all times. Also, despite being approved in 11 countries, it is not approved in the EU. Full EU approval requires a qualified majority, and Tesla still lacks formal backing from the bloc's largest automotive markets like Germany, France, or Italy.
2) The Netherlands is the only EU country to have approved the system through its own process. Its vehicle authority, the RDW, issued a provisional type-approval on April 10 under an EU rule that allows exemptions for new technology. That approval is valid only in the Netherlands. Other member states can recognize it for their own roads while the EU process continues, and ten have now done so: Lithuania, Estonia, Denmark, Belgium, Slovenia, Czechia, Croatia, Slovakia, Latvia, Finland. Nothing against any of those counties, but that is far from “the EU.”
It’s on track to eventually get approved, assuming they make a number of changes around not exceeding speed limits, clarifying in marketing and in reality that it must be supervised at all times, etc.
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Neither Rivian nor Lucid claim their system is “full self driving.”
Surely, you’re joking.
Evidence, please.
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A car company should also recognize that we're a bit more forgiving of human failures, and less forgiving of robots killing people. For robotaxis to be acceptable to society, they cannot match human performance, they have to dramatically exceed it.People like making this comparison but it’s not actually valid, as accidents are not equally comparable. Do robotaxis make mistakes and get into crashes humans wouldn’t? If so, how much of that is acceptable?
Without the answer to that, simply counting the number of crashes does not make a case, as drivers are not equally skilled.
For the *average* driver, it is almost certainly better. For *good* drivers, it may not be yet.
And the problem, of course, is everyone thinks they’re a good driver.