Motor trend Lucid Gravity review with Kyle Conner

Another new review video just popped up on my YouTube feed… this one from NotchEV. I am still watching it…. Interestingly he may be the first reviewer (?) to mention some of the “bugs” that he is experiencing as he drives…

First impressions from NotchEV
Interesting review. Not as polished as some of the more well known bloggers but view comes off a little more real and like if I was out spending time driving around in a new car and discovering things for the first time, learning how things work, finding things that are cool and finding things not so cool. For us still waiting on our Gravity, a decent view of what our early experience might be like.
 
Interesting article on the new pending Porsche Cayenne EV. One of the advantages of Lucid being a smaller “light on their feet” company is that they were able to adapt and make serious last minute changes to Gravity charging to Properly take advantage of the last minute opening of Tesla NACS superchargers. Porsche, which has had more than a year extra time to adapt, chose to implement a less than elegant solution because they were too far into planning/design to make a proper change to NACS.

 
Interesting article on the new pending Porsche Cayenne EV. One of the advantages of Lucid being a smaller “light on their feet” company is that they were able to adapt and make serious last minute changes to Gravity charging to Properly take advantage of the last minute opening of Tesla NACS superchargers. Porsche, which has had more than a year extra time to adapt, chose to implement a less than elegant solution because they were too far into planning/design to make a proper change to NACS.

Yeah, that's nuts. All they need is a relay to connect to the AC-DC.
What doesn't make sense is they did put in a split pack for both the Macan and Cayenne. That's a much more extensive change than adding a NACS port. They had to redesign the HVAC so it could run off both pack voltages. The story doesn't make any sense.
Also for AC charging the NACS port is electrically the same as J1772, why didn't they put a NACS port on both sides? One DC and one AC.
 
Yeah, that's nuts. All they need is a relay to connect to the AC-DC.
What doesn't make sense is they did put in a split pack for both the Macan and Cayenne. That's a much more extensive change than adding a NACS port. They had to redesign the HVAC so it could run off both pack voltages. The story doesn't make any sense.
Also for AC charging the NACS port is electrically the same as J1772, why didn't they put a NACS port on both sides? One DC and one AC.
That’s German approach to Automotive Engineering! Measure ten times, Cut once!

Excellent for robustness, but not for market velocity and agility…
 
That’s German approach to Automotive Engineering! Measure ten times, Cut once!

Excellent for robustness, but not for market velocity and agility…
Robustness? LOL. That's not a word I would associate with German engineering. I would characterize it as engineering things to be as complicated as possible while using as many brittle plastic bits as possible.
Though I don't know much about Porsche, I do hear they're much better than BMW and Audi (even though they share parts with Audis.)
 
Just a note on this back and forth with software. At a high level, I believe people highly underestimate the effort and complexity of the Lucid's system. There are a lot of demands and juggling priorities being asked of the same "computer". As someone who expected to launch a database to market, built from the ground-up, 9 months ago vs still ironing out issues today, let me assure you the number of hidden gremlins, last minute architecture reworks due to bugs, and architecture cleanup due to performance requirements can and are unexpected and time consuming in these types of systems.

As an engineer observing from the outside Lucid's software, I suspect the following:

- Multithreading Is being used. This is one of, if not the single hardest piece to get correct. All those things you expect the car to do have to be coordinated and synchronized safely in the sheer chaos of any and/or all of them trying to do it at the exact same time. Fixing one bug, or even worse undefined behavior, often reveals a whole new set of bugs from previous incorrect assumptions.

- Event driven architecture. A system, including user interaction, gets triggered in one part of the code to be queued and processed in a completely different part of the code. This is the defacto design for most UI/UX systems with heavy backend processing (eg. audio, dream drive, hardware sensors, Lucid Assistant, etc.). Complex and hard to replicate as you have several things firing essentially random with random timings (eg. hard to consistently pinpoint and replicate the source of a bug).

- 3 known complete rewrites. Major versions of 1 and 2 for the Air. 3 for the Gravity. All of these rewrites take a ton of time of "stalling out" in the hopes, not guarantee, of addressing technical issues, bugs, and features not currently possible. This often means all new code that needs all new testing and equally long periods to find and iron out the "wrinkles" aka bugs.

- Technical Direction and Prioritization. Lucid has cycled through a number of "captains" directing the efforts and even associated "crews" for the software development. An organization must prioritize performance and long-term sustainability while equally compensating and rewarding employees to do so. Given the churn and overall focus on the driving experience (eg. the physical experience), I suspect a ton of resources have been allocated and prioritized to the in-house traction control systems and other hardware systems. The focus on long-term sustainability and performance of the user facing software only a more recent focus (post mad dash to get Gravity and UI/UX 3.0 out the door). Meaning all the sub-optimal decisions will plague the current software until addressed costing time and resources at some factor larger than "just doing it right" the first time.

While I would hope Lucid would have highly talented software engineers designing the best system from the get go, the entire industry has been plagued with indoctrination of Object Oriented Programming. This has led to abstraction hellscapes in code, bloated code, highly tangled and coupled monstrosities unable to be properly tested except with mock testing (eg. not real tests), and ultimately code that is not performant. We see this in the requirements for faster hardware nearly every year to make our phones feel "snappy" again. Old computers unable to use modern OS systems for Web browsing, watching videos, and document based work.

All of this to say that these same practices are almost certainly present in Lucid's codebase despite best intentions because that is the indoctrinated practices with excellent engineers who know nothing better (and every manufacturer's codebase including Tesla who required hardware upgrades for software updates due to bloat).

If you can't live with the current bugs for some period of time, get a different car whose bugs you can deal with for an extended period of time. If software is that important, prioritize a legacy manufacturer who is unlikely to update or address bugs in their cars because that means stable and known bugs vs. potentially having bugs fixed + new features for the trade-off of potentially new bugs.
I love it when I learn new things on here, thanks for that educating post. I still maintain that the customer when driving the car should not be given the impression of “my god software must be really hard to do”, and that seems to be the state the Gravity is in right now, but they do deserve credit and benefit of the doubt and they proved with the Air they could make a relatively polished software package with time, so I’ll be patient and I’m sure occasionally grouchy.
 
Also on the topic of Kyle, yes he can be a bit of a twerp and needs an editor to trim his videos but on the whole I think he’s fair and he knows his shit better than most reviewers and is very good at stress testing vehicles so I often look to him for a source of knowledge. Like yeah I don’t give a crap about whether the Sapphire thermal management has room for improvement but he’s not wrong.
 
Robustness? LOL. That's not a word I would associate with German engineering. I would characterize it as engineering things to be as complicated as possible while using as many brittle plastic bits as possible.
Though I don't know much about Porsche, I do hear they're much better than BMW and Audi (even though they share parts with Audis.)
Old BMW/Audi is not today's BMW/Audi, either.
Just a note on this back and forth with software. At a high level, I believe people highly underestimate the effort and complexity of the Lucid's system. There are a lot of demands and juggling priorities being asked of the same "computer". As someone who expected to launch a database to market, built from the ground-up, 9 months ago vs still ironing out issues today, let me assure you the number of hidden gremlins, last minute architecture reworks due to bugs, and architecture cleanup due to performance requirements can and are unexpected and time consuming in these types of systems.

As an engineer observing from the outside Lucid's software, I suspect the following:

- Multithreading Is being used. This is one of, if not the single hardest piece to get correct. All those things you expect the car to do have to be coordinated and synchronized safely in the sheer chaos of any and/or all of them trying to do it at the exact same time. Fixing one bug, or even worse undefined behavior, often reveals a whole new set of bugs from previous incorrect assumptions.

- Event driven architecture. A system, including user interaction, gets triggered in one part of the code to be queued and processed in a completely different part of the code. This is the defacto design for most UI/UX systems with heavy backend processing (eg. audio, dream drive, hardware sensors, Lucid Assistant, etc.). Complex and hard to replicate as you have several things firing essentially random with random timings (eg. hard to consistently pinpoint and replicate the source of a bug).

- 3 known complete rewrites. Major versions of 1 and 2 for the Air. 3 for the Gravity. All of these rewrites take a ton of time of "stalling out" in the hopes, not guarantee, of addressing technical issues, bugs, and features not currently possible. This often means all new code that needs all new testing and equally long periods to find and iron out the "wrinkles" aka bugs.

- Technical Direction and Prioritization. Lucid has cycled through a number of "captains" directing the efforts and even associated "crews" for the software development. An organization must prioritize performance and long-term sustainability while equally compensating and rewarding employees to do so. Given the churn and overall focus on the driving experience (eg. the physical experience), I suspect a ton of resources have been allocated and prioritized to the in-house traction control systems and other hardware systems. The focus on long-term sustainability and performance of the user facing software only a more recent focus (post mad dash to get Gravity and UI/UX 3.0 out the door). Meaning all the sub-optimal decisions will plague the current software until addressed costing time and resources at some factor larger than "just doing it right" the first time.

While I would hope Lucid would have highly talented software engineers designing the best system from the get go, the entire industry has been plagued with indoctrination of Object Oriented Programming. This has led to abstraction hellscapes in code, bloated code, highly tangled and coupled monstrosities unable to be properly tested except with mock testing (eg. not real tests), and ultimately code that is not performant. We see this in the requirements for faster hardware nearly every year to make our phones feel "snappy" again. Old computers unable to use modern OS systems for Web browsing, watching videos, and document based work.

All of this to say that these same practices are almost certainly present in Lucid's codebase despite best intentions because that is the indoctrinated practices with excellent engineers who know nothing better (and every manufacturer's codebase including Tesla who required hardware upgrades for software updates due to bloat).

If you can't live with the current bugs for some period of time, get a different car whose bugs you can deal with for an extended period of time. If software is that important, prioritize a legacy manufacturer who is unlikely to update or address bugs in their cars because that means stable and known bugs vs. potentially having bugs fixed + new features for the trade-off of potentially new bugs.
I have dreams of building an automotive software stack in Rust and Elixir.

A boy can dream.
 
I love it when I learn new things on here, thanks for that educating post. I still maintain that the customer when driving the car should not be given the impression of “my god software must be really hard to do”, and that seems to be the state the Gravity is in right now, but they do deserve credit and benefit of the doubt and they proved with the Air they could make a relatively polished software package with time, so I’ll be patient and I’m sure occasionally grouchy.
You’re not wrong, and a few years from now I suspect that will be the case.

It just takes time to get there.

All the mistakes that happened in the early days are what we refer to as “technical debt.” That is, they are shortcuts or choices you make (not always shortcuts), that later you have to pay back the “debt” for as you learn new things and as you discover better ways of doing things.

Sometimes you take on technical debt consciously, knowing full well you’ll have to pay it back later, but you do so for other reasons; speed to market, deadlines, building an MVP, etc.

But no matter what, you eventually either pay back that debt, or learn to live with it. Lucid, given its multiple rewrites, seems to *want* to pay it back, which is a good sign.

Every startup has technical debt. If they don’t, they never launch and run out of money, or they build the solution to a problem nobody had, because they built it in a vacuum.
 
BMW/Audi has been bad for a couple decades now. 😢

Compromise Nothing?😉
I don't know why they chose to use Android. I'm not a software developer but I haven't heard good things.
Because it saves a lot of time.
 
BMW/Audi has been bad for a couple decades now. 😢

Compromise Nothing?😉
I don't know why they chose to use Android. I'm not a software developer but I haven't heard good things.
I feel like people here are mistaking software development in, say, databases or web apps or their mobile OS of choice with the software, hardware, and firmware present in cars.

Specifically, the Android that is present in most cars, and I think is largely the case even with Android Automotive, is the layer that controls the infotainment systems and screens, and not the core driving and mechanical systems. If there are bugs in UX 3.0 itself (e.g., inconsistent units between panels), then that's a problem with their Android-centric code and you can attribute whatever shoddiness the software is written to Google or the Android team @ Lucid.

But the vast majority of bugs that we're encountering are not UX 3.0 glitches:
  • Weird notifications about no battery power or no USB charging, which are almost certainly due to hardware and firmware issues and the UI/UX is just responding to signals sent from elsewhere
  • Maps and navigation problems, which is of course largely a HERE maps difference w/ Google maps
  • Real hardware failures like the center console and rear drive units
  • Key fob stuff, which I also highly doubt is due to Android though I don't have more insight there
The one real annoyance I've encountered so far that's attributable to Android would be the infotainment systems failing to start in a timely fashion, needing some 30–40s to boot up sometimes from sleep—that may be just Android behaving poorly in and out of sleep mode, but otherwise it's really Lucid's hardware and firmware custom software stack that's been buggy, which is understandable since all that is new w/ the Gravity.
 
Another new review video just popped up on my YouTube feed… this one from NotchEV. I am still watching it…. Interestingly he may be the first reviewer (?) to mention some of the “bugs” that he is experiencing as he drives…

First impressions from NotchEV
I like his videos because he's "just a guy" and his experience with the Lucid is completely filtered through the lens of being a previous Tesla owner. Most of the things he has issues with is just something being different from Tesla.

If you're used to doing something one way for years then you have to do something different, that different thing may come off as "worse". When it's mostly that you have to get used to the different way.
 
Just a note on this back and forth with software. At a high level, I believe people highly underestimate the effort and complexity of the Lucid's system. There are a lot of demands and juggling priorities being asked of the same "computer". As someone who expected to launch a database to market, built from the ground-up, 9 months ago vs still ironing out issues today, let me assure you the number of hidden gremlins, last minute architecture reworks due to bugs, and architecture cleanup due to performance requirements can and are unexpected and time consuming in these types of systems.

As an engineer observing from the outside Lucid's software, I suspect the following:

- Multithreading Is being used. This is one of, if not the single hardest piece to get correct. All those things you expect the car to do have to be coordinated and synchronized safely in the sheer chaos of any and/or all of them trying to do it at the exact same time. Fixing one bug, or even worse undefined behavior, often reveals a whole new set of bugs from previous incorrect assumptions.

- Event driven architecture. A system, including user interaction, gets triggered in one part of the code to be queued and processed in a completely different part of the code. This is the defacto design for most UI/UX systems with heavy backend processing (eg. audio, dream drive, hardware sensors, Lucid Assistant, etc.). Complex and hard to replicate as you have several things firing essentially random with random timings (eg. hard to consistently pinpoint and replicate the source of a bug).

- 3 known complete rewrites. Major versions of 1 and 2 for the Air. 3 for the Gravity. All of these rewrites take a ton of time of "stalling out" in the hopes, not guarantee, of addressing technical issues, bugs, and features not currently possible. This often means all new code that needs all new testing and equally long periods to find and iron out the "wrinkles" aka bugs.

- Technical Direction and Prioritization. Lucid has cycled through a number of "captains" directing the efforts and even associated "crews" for the software development. An organization must prioritize performance and long-term sustainability while equally compensating and rewarding employees to do so. Given the churn and overall focus on the driving experience (eg. the physical experience), I suspect a ton of resources have been allocated and prioritized to the in-house traction control systems and other hardware systems. The focus on long-term sustainability and performance of the user facing software only a more recent focus (post mad dash to get Gravity and UI/UX 3.0 out the door). Meaning all the sub-optimal decisions will plague the current software until addressed costing time and resources at some factor larger than "just doing it right" the first time.

While I would hope Lucid would have highly talented software engineers designing the best system from the get go, the entire industry has been plagued with indoctrination of Object Oriented Programming. This has led to abstraction hellscapes in code, bloated code, highly tangled and coupled monstrosities unable to be properly tested except with mock testing (eg. not real tests), and ultimately code that is not performant. We see this in the requirements for faster hardware nearly every year to make our phones feel "snappy" again. Old computers unable to use modern OS systems for Web browsing, watching videos, and document based work.

All of this to say that these same practices are almost certainly present in Lucid's codebase despite best intentions because that is the indoctrinated practices with excellent engineers who know nothing better (and every manufacturer's codebase including Tesla who required hardware upgrades for software updates due to bloat).

If you can't live with the current bugs for some period of time, get a different car whose bugs you can deal with for an extended period of time. If software is that important, prioritize a legacy manufacturer who is unlikely to update or address bugs in their cars because that means stable and known bugs vs. potentially having bugs fixed + new features for the trade-off of potentially new bugs.
IMG_0171.webp


You weren’t kidding about the android system. My gravity crashed today. I can see the android recovery screen now.

😭
 
Wow. That I have literally never seen. Does a reboot fix it?
Didn’t fix it unfortunately. I was able to put the car in drive so tried to hobble back home.

On call with the Natick MA service center.

Pray for me. 🙏
 
Didn’t fix it unfortunately. I was able to put the car in drive so tried to hobble back home.

On call with the Natick MA service center.

Pray for me. 🙏
Haha not the praying type, but you have my thoughts
 
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