Lucid and King Abdullah University of Science and Technology reported a strategic partnership.

[californiaboy935]

why? what "magic" does it bring enlighten me!

Is it like doors that unlock or having music and maps at the same time? enquiring minds want to know how having ABS/TCS or whatever 1000 times a second is so much better than say my 2007 corvette.

I’m not sure what car you bought but the Lucid at every trim level is magical to drive.

 

[borski]

Nothing matters but the things that matter, and those that matter don’t matter unless they matter to me.

 

[californiaboy935]

Nothing matters but the things that matter, and those that matter don’t matter unless they matter to me.

Hehe

 

[Adnillien]

why? what "magic" does it bring enlighten me!

Is it like doors that unlock or having music and maps at the same time? enquiring minds want to know how having ABS/TCS or whatever 1000 times a second is so much better than say my 2007 corvette.

It is important as you travel over bumps or surfaces that can cause a loss of traction while decelerating with regen, the slow updating Bosch will give a noticeable reduction in regen where the in house system will not. The Bosch system works fine on your ICE which it was designed but is noticeable inferior in the Lucid Air.

 

[Adnillien]

Dollars to donuts Bosch handles that 1000Hz traction control (or it has nothing to do with the main software team.) My only point being the main software team that handles in vehicle UI systems needs to show something one of these days. The hardware team is engineering laps around them on a regular basis (as seen in the Gravity voltage stepping to 800V charging using the rear motor at a constant 250kW in Tesla superchargers) from what I see, and others are noticing. Maybe the embedded systems folks are awesome, but the guys and gals on the front end user software need to step up big-time, and do "something", IMO. Anything, really would be nice. I'm new here so let me know what I missed in the last 6 months.

Guess what, half the work of making the voltage boost work using the rear motor stator windings and inverter is software. It is not trivial to do this without generating torque in the rear motor that would be unacceptable while parked. It is done by timing the inverter different for each winding in the the motor. It requires both hardware and software to accomplish this result. While you may have a great background in software development, it is clear that you do not understand the realationship between software and hardware in an EV like the Lucid Air.

 

[Murcie]

It is important as you travel over bumps or surfaces that can cause a loss of traction while decelerating with regen, the slow updating Bosch will give a noticeable reduction in regen where the in house system will not. The Bosch system works fine on your ICE which it was designed but is noticeable inferior in the Lucid Air.

Guess what, half the work of making the voltage boost work using the rear motor stator windings and inverter is software. It is not trivial to do this without generating torque in the rear motor that would be unacceptable while parked. It is done by timing the inverter different for each winding in the the motor. It requires both hardware and software to accomplish this result. While you may have a great background in software development, it is clear that you do not understand the realationship between software and hardware in an EV like the Lucid Air.

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing. Do you or @borski know if the in-house TCS system made it to the first gen '23 Pure AWD or only in the newer '24+ RWD Pure vehicles? I'm asking because this might explain why I really enjoy the driving dynamics of my '23 Pure AWD when comparing it to the '22-'23 AGT loaners I drove, my Pure AWD feels more nimble, despite having smaller 19" wheels vs 20"-21" wheels on the loaners, and I couldn't explain why but I thought it's because of the lighter weight of the smaller battery pack, but this higher refresh rate TCS in-house system vs Bosch system might be the real reason.

 

[PhotoEye]

I did not state one word about Lucid letting go of anyone on their own staff, or about them scrapping the development this technology internally. If anything, think it's pretty clear that Lucid's software team is woefully understaffed for the many varied tasks at hand. Lucid's press release is also clear in stating that this relationship is expected to go well beyond data access and greater computing power. I also did not suggest that it's a bad long-term move, but it's pretty clear to me that the transition of even parts of the whole will take time to get up to speed.

A major question for me is ownership of new IP from this relationship. There's no free lunch to be had in this deal. Will leveraging Lucid's tech IP in the future be diluted, as a result?

 

[californiaboy935]

A major question for me is ownership of new IP from this relationship. There's no free lunch to be had in this deal. Will leveraging Lucid's tech IP in the future be diluted, as a result?

Interesting, yes I wonder how that would work with a research/educational institution.

 

[PhotoEye]

Interesting, yes I wonder how that would work with a research/educational institution.

In the States, these arrangements often have joint IP ownership provisions of some sort (specific details are often confidential). If Lucid was paying the university for access to their resources, retaining IP would be more likely. Collaborative "partnerships", however, open the door for shared ownership, at least.

 

[borski]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing. Do you or @borski know if the in-house TCS system made it to the first gen '23 Pure AWD or only in the newer '24+ RWD Pure vehicles? I'm asking because this might explain why I really enjoy the driving dynamics of my '23 Pure AWD when comparing it to the '22-'23 AGT loaners I drove, my Pure AWD feels more nimble, despite having smaller 19" wheels vs 20"-21" wheels on the loaners, and I couldn't explain why but I thought it's because of the lighter weight of the smaller battery pack, but this higher refresh rate TCS in-house system vs Bosch system might be the real reason.

I'm pretty sure it made it into the 24+ RWD Pure vehicles, but I don't know if they've backported it to any other vehicles yet. Here's the really funny thing - you know what they need in order to backport it? Software. It is entirely software, lol. But you know, nobody cares about that.

Aside: what few people seem to realize is that the Sapphire was meant to make a statement, sure, being the fastest-accelerating production car in the world, but that wasn't the only point. It was mainly used to develop Lucid's in-house traction control, stability control, and ABS tuning (all of which used to be made by Bosch). It's essentially a rolling R&D project. But what do I know... I'm just Ken.

Here's another article that definitely doesn't boast about it, since nobody does that, that seems to imply it is Pure RWD only (at least for now).

"Instead, it's how stinkin' eager the Air Pure is to cut a rug. Both the Pure and Sapphire use a traction control system designed in-house by Lucid, rather than the outsourced software found in the midrange Touring and Grand Touring models. This tech works a treat; Lucid says its in-house system is significantly quicker to react than the traction control in the Touring and GT.

The result is a rear-wheel-drive car that's nearly impossible to upset, even when you stomp the throttle coming out of a hairpin turn on a wet road. Any bits of reign-it-in weirdness you might feel in the Touring or Grand Touring is nonexistent in the Pure. That's especially remarkable when you remember that Lucid's other Airs have the benefit of all-wheel drive. The Pure, meanwhile, is tasked with managing all of its 430 hp through a single motor on the rear axle.

You can partially disable the traction control if you'd prefer your Air Pure to be a bit more, um, pure in its rear-drive power delivery. Controlled bits of oversteer are easy-peasy to coax out, and the lack of a motor on the front axle makes the Pure's nose lighter than other Air models, resulting in crisper turn-in. In fact, I'm willing to say the Pure has the best steering of the full Air lineup, full stop. It's the most communicative and the most satisfying to use."

And they also definitely don't care about it in the Gravity, since it doesn't have a locking differential and apparently... doesn't need one.

"The Gravity’s chops extend to off-roading, too. My test drive didn’t include any rock crawling, but I did get plenty of rallycross-style laps to truly experience the Gravity’s exceptional performance on loose terrain. Simply put, it makes you look — and feel — like a pro. The Gravity has exactly zero locking differentials, but Lucid says its incredibly sophisticated traction control system — which was developed in-house and operates at 1,000 cycles per second — has been tuned to provide the same level of magical wheel control off-road as you'll experience on-road."

 

[Murcie]

I'm pretty sure it made it into the 24+ RWD Pure vehicles, but I don't know if they've backported it to any other vehicles yet. Here's the really funny thing - you know what they need in order to backport it? Software. It is entirely software, lol. But you know, nobody cares about that.

Aside: what few people seem to realize is that the Sapphire was meant to make a statement, sure, being the fastest-accelerating production car in the world, but that wasn't the only point. It was mainly used to develop Lucid's in-house traction control, stability control, and ABS tuning (all of which used to be made by Bosch). It's essentially a rolling R&D project. But what do I know... I'm just Ken.

Here's another article that definitely doesn't boast about it, since nobody does that, that seems to imply it is Pure RWD only (at least for now).

"Instead, it's how stinkin' eager the Air Pure is to cut a rug. Both the Pure and Sapphire use a traction control system designed in-house by Lucid, rather than the outsourced software found in the midrange Touring and Grand Touring models. This tech works a treat; Lucid says its in-house system is significantly quicker to react than the traction control in the Touring and GT.

The result is a rear-wheel-drive car that's nearly impossible to upset, even when you stomp the throttle coming out of a hairpin turn on a wet road. Any bits of reign-it-in weirdness you might feel in the Touring or Grand Touring is nonexistent in the Pure. That's especially remarkable when you remember that Lucid's other Airs have the benefit of all-wheel drive. The Pure, meanwhile, is tasked with managing all of its 430 hp through a single motor on the rear axle.

You can partially disable the traction control if you'd prefer your Air Pure to be a bit more, um, pure in its rear-drive power delivery. Controlled bits of oversteer are easy-peasy to coax out, and the lack of a motor on the front axle makes the Pure's nose lighter than other Air models, resulting in crisper turn-in. In fact, I'm willing to say the Pure has the best steering of the full Air lineup, full stop. It's the most communicative and the most satisfying to use."

And they also definitely don't care about it in the Gravity, since it doesn't have a locking differential and apparently... doesn't need one.

"The Gravity’s chops extend to off-roading, too. My test drive didn’t include any rock crawling, but I did get plenty of rallycross-style laps to truly experience the Gravity’s exceptional performance on loose terrain. Simply put, it makes you look — and feel — like a pro. The Gravity has exactly zero locking differentials, but Lucid says its incredibly sophisticated traction control system — which was developed in-house and operates at 1,000 cycles per second — has been tuned to provide the same level of magical wheel control off-road as you'll experience on-road."

I remember watching an interview with Emad or Eric, and he said they consider the Sapphire and Pure to be Air version 1.5, without going into the technical details, but it makes more sense now.

 

[californiaboy935]

In the States, these arrangements often have joint IP ownership provisions of some sort (specific details are often confidential). If Lucid was paying the university for access to their resources, retaining IP would be more likely. Collaborative "partnerships", however, open the door for shared ownership, at least.

I trust the legal team at Lucid to make the right choices and advise the executive committee of any pitfalls to the deal. I think if the funding will keep coming then giving up some IP is fine.

Long term strategic partnership.

 

[Steve181]

I found a way to express my Slate comments better: Think of the car like an Android or IOS phone. The hardware and core software, and all the safety related stuff is made or integrated by one Co, (Lucid in this case). But there are open interfaces so that approved software applications can plugin. That gives us a world of new features provided more rapidly by many groups.

A start of that for Lucid might be to provide the hardware interface for the lower screen. Then we could add our own devices purchased in the marketplace or built on our own. A simple hardware or software switch would permit the user to choose what is displayed (Lucid settings and controls, or e.g. large WAZE maps and audio player controls and lists.) Lucid would not lose anything. In fact, that would be a great feature, and we would not have to wait for AA development, test and certification.

 

[illopp00]

Lols I had a mental picture of this… hilarious. Although, knowing the Lucid team IRL I know this not to be the case. Serious dedication from the whole team… just look at 2.6.16, it’s small but I’m impressed they did all that while working on Gravity software. ADAS improvements are killing it on my test drive today.

That coffee and donuts are critical non-tariffed materials inputs to the energy the Lucid team brings to their product work

 

[illopp00]

Interesting, yes I wonder how that would work with a research/educational institution.

I have had a product pay the university or research institution a royalty to license if it was truly their IP and had patent protection. However, based on the earnings commentary, the initial use case is all extension of resources for the engineering team to use advanced compute for simulations and training, which is likely cheaper than paying Amazon or building your own.