Choosing gravity GT vs DE

[tonybot]

I would consider driving one first. For example, my Air DE is a far better driving vehicle than an Air GT, if you push it.

I have no reason to believe they would compromise to make the DE a 'parts bin' car. I suspect the second motor is not the only difference. But we'll see.

It would be amazing if Lucid could provide the details or give a tech talk on all the things that are different on Dream Gravity. Besides the power and our theories around that, we are all left guessing. That is one factor why I haven’t switched to the Dream yet. Other factors are financing and leasing details, as well as the fact that I am very hesitant to buy something without test driving—let alone without sitting in one!

Even an interview or a podcast with a good outlet will do, like Peter used to do.

What did they do when Air dream came out? Did they provide more details or was it similar to gravity?

 

[HC_79]

It would be amazing if Lucid could provide the details or give a tech talk on all the things that are different on Dream Gravity. Besides the power and our theories around that, we are all left guessing. That is one factor why I haven’t switched to the Dream yet. Other factors are financing and leasing details, as well as the fact that I am very hesitant to buy something without test driving—let alone without sitting in one!

Even an interview or a podcast with a good outlet will do, like Peter used to do.

What did they do when Air dream came out? Did they provide more details or was it similar to gravity?

Well, unfortunately, the man who led the Tech Talks has left the company. I do hope Lucid continues to engage in the nerdy aspects, as it was certainly interesting to watch. However, I also understand that it caters to a niche audience and may not contribute significantly to the company’s overall goal of expanding brand awareness.

 

[WeighingGravity]

I'm still on the fence but probably leaning GT over DE at this point. We'll see if I find the stones to pull the trigger in the coming days.

In my heart of hearts, I know I don't need the extra HP. I'm not a good enough driver to push any car right up to its limits, and 860HP is already a monstrous amount of power. I'm a little suspicious of the way that the DE is making its extra power (in large part thank's to PetevB's very helpful post) anyways. While I know I will miss being able to do absolutely stupid (likely sub-3-second) 0-60 peelouts to show my friends, is the difference between that and 3.5 seconds really worth the $14,400 markup?

And since I wasn't going to choose the biggest wheels anyways (and wouldn't on DE either, but wouldn't get $ credit for it) the markup gets closer to $16-17K. Plus the tow package (granted at least I'm not walking away from "value" there) makes the premium even bigger. Maybe you can subtract out a little bit for the fact that some accessories will be thrown in - I'm guessing the frunk seating accessory will be a grand, and there may be some other goodies (I'm guessing a DE ballcap and coffee mug, lol).

I do want to be at the front of the line - really, really badly - so that's a big pull towards DE for me. But my rational brain just can't justify it.

If I do end up switching, it will be because my lizard brain wanted peelouts and to be first.

I do wish there was more clarity on exactly what is included in DE, all kinds of questions about delivery lead times, and some of the terms and conditions of DE. That might help give additional insight into the decision. But as is, I'm sort of holding firm on the GGT version for now.

 

[hmp10]

In any case I’m curious to find out more about what else Lucid does to the rear motors, if anything, when them move forward. I suspect they simply limit peak torque in software, though if that’s blanket true or if they simply rely on traction control is an interesting question. Maybe someone can ask at the “ask me anything?” Also for the Air Dream edition, though the Air’s lower CG means less weight transfer, so I’d expect the same motor up front would work better.

If Lucid horsepower and torque figures for any Air are an indication, then the motors operate well below their horsepower and torque capacity in any of the versions, including the Sapphire, and are limited more by battery current than their own output limits.

Unlike the Air, which used the same motors on both axles (except for the Dream Edition Range), the Gravity GT is reported to use a smaller motor on the front axle. If the output of the front motor limited what Lucid called up from the rear motor to obtain a given front/rear power or torque split, might putting the larger motor on the front axle of the GDE mean Lucid could call up more output from the rear motor to preserve the GT power and torque splits, but at a higher total output level?

 

[hmp10]

Well, unfortunately, the man who led the Tech Talks has left the company. I do hope Lucid continues to engage in the nerdy aspects, as it was certainly interesting to watch. However, I also understand that it caters to a niche audience and may not contribute significantly to the company’s overall goal of expanding brand awareness.

Based on the interviews I've seen with Eric Bach, I think he could easily carry the water for delivering superb Tech Talks.

While I agree that those talks catered to a niche audience, I think they contributed greatly to the growth of Lucid's reputation among the serious automotive press, which has by-and-large come to a consensus that Lucid is at the current pinnacle of EV engineering. It's sort of like the old days when few people actually watched auto racing, but the follow-on press from those events became the foundation on which a brand's performance reputation got built in the minds of a broader consumer base.

 

[hmp10]

I'm a little suspicious of the way that the DE is making its extra power (in large part thank's to PetevB's very helpful post) anyways.

I'm in the @borski camp on this one. I don't think the Dream Edition is by any stretch an afterthought or late-game marketing play. It was shown alongside the Grand Touring at the Gravity unveiling back in November 2023. It has been on the show circuit continuously ever since.

So the Dream Edition was brewed right alongside the Grand Touring with heavy involvement from Peter Rawlinson throughout. There's much we don't know about Rawlinson's departure, but I think there's one thing pretty much everyone agrees on: Rawlinson did not approach any aspect of engineering a car as an afterthought or short-cut . . . perhaps even to a fault in some people's minds.

It's true that the Gravity Dream Edition orders opened up at a different point in the launch timeline than with the Air Dream Edition. But, again, I am of the @borski mind on this. It was due to not wanting to announce the highest pricing first in light of the anticipated response to the relatively-high pricing of a fully-optioned Grand Touring. (And the press and social media reaction to that pricing bore out Lucid's probable concern.)

I reserved an Air Dream Edition long before I saw the car in person, and I signed a Sales Agreement without ever having driven or even sat in one -- all on the strength of Rawlinson's resume, reputation, and representations. I wound up with the best damn car I've owned in over 50 years of owning many premium, high-performance cars. And I'm willing to do it again with the Gravity Dream Edition.

 

[PetevB]

I'm in the @borski camp on this one. I don't think the Dream Edition is by any stretch an afterthought or late-game marketing play. It was shown alongside the Grand Touring at the Gravity unveiling back in November 2023. It has been on the show circuit continuously ever since.

I fully agree the DE was always part of the plan. Virtually every modern car is developed as a modular platform, with the powertrain options sketched out from the start.

Here is the question that needs asking/ answering: what is the maximum power and torque output of each of the Dream motors? If the answer is 535 hp then the torque and power split is sub optimal. If, however, the answer is more like 700 hp then Lucid can overdrive the back and under-drive the front in the Dream, giving it a more correct torque split. At that point the only “penalty” for using the same motors front and rear is weight, and that’s minimal. Perhaps that’s info someone can get?

 

[borski]

I fully agree the DE was always part of the plan. Virtually every modern car is developed as a modular platform, with the powertrain options sketched out from the start.

Here is the question that needs asking/ answering: what is the maximum power and torque output of each of the Dream motors? If the answer is 535 hp then the torque and power split is sub optimal. If, however, the answer is more like 700 hp then Lucid can overdrive the back and under-drive the front in the Dream, giving it a more correct torque split. At that point the only “penalty” for using the same motors front and rear is weight, and that’s minimal. Perhaps that’s info someone can get?

Each Air motor is capable of 670HP, in any of the models. Not a single one of the models, even the Sapphire, claims 1340HP.

I have no reason to suspect that Gravity’s motors would be less capable, rather than more capable.

 

[hmp10]

Each Air motor is capable of 670HP, in any of the models. Not a single one of the models, even the Sapphire, claims 1340HP.

Except that, according to a conversation I had with Zak Edson several years ago, the Air Dream motor used an exotic metallurgy that increased the horsepower by 15 over the standard motor and the torque by a larger amount that he would not disclose.

And, according to another conversation I had with someone from Lucid Product Planning more recently, the Dream Range had the exotic metallurgy motor on the rear axle and the standard motor on the front axle, while the Dream Performance had the exotic metallurgy motor on both axles.

I've wondered whether the Air Sapphire used the standard Air motor or the Air Dream motor or some mix of the two.

I was thinking the Gravity Dream might make use of that more powerful motor from the Air Dream until you got information that they're taking a different approach to up-powering the GDE using motors that differ from either of the Air motors to some extent.

To me, the bottom line seems to be that Lucid had a lot of options to play with in powering the GDE, and I have no reason to think they would not have taken whichever approach yielded the optimal balance of power, handling, and range to land right at the top of the "sport SUV" mountain on which the likes of Porsche and Lamborghini -- their stated benchmarks -- play.

 

[Bus Driver]

Will any Gravity have any NVH-suppressing premium features, like double paned glass for the windscreen and windows?

 

[Neurio]

Will any Gravity have any NVH-suppressing premium features, like double paned glass for the windscreen and windows?

Yes, they're part of the Comfort and Convenience package:

 

[PetevB]

Each Air motor is capable of 670HP, in any of the models. Not a single one of the models, even the Sapphire, claims 1340HP.

I have no reason to suspect that Gravity’s motors would be less capable, rather than more capable.

Got it, and it looks like it's got proportional torque? Do we know the rating in lbs feet? Gear ratio is 7:1? If so that says they have headroom to push torque rearwards. Probably brings my 0-60 estimate for the Dream down to 2.6-2.7 seconds and addresses my main concern.

To me, the bottom line seems to be that Lucid had a lot of options to play with in powering the GDE, and I have no reason to think they would not have taken whichever approach yielded the optimal balance of power, handling, and range to land right at the top of the "sport SUV" mountain on which the likes of Porsche and Lamborghini -- their stated benchmarks -- play.

Porsche and Lamborghini are rarely optimized either, don't kid yourself. Porsche for example used to take the engine from the Carrera S and put in smaller cylinders, pistons and a shorter stroke crank and sell that in the Cayman. It actually cost them more than making all the engines the same, and the engine was hundreds of pounds heavier than it needed to be for the output. And yet the Cayman would still win comparison tests because it was still more than good enough.

Compare that to what we appear to be talking about here, which is probably using something ~20 lbs heavier than it otherwise could be to do the job. As compromises go that's not a bad one at all, the Porsches and Lambos you cite have far, far more (the Lambo Urus is built on the same platform as the VW Touareg and Audi A4, if you don't think it makes compromises I've got a bridge to sell you). It does make me like the Dream more for those who want to be in that power bracket.

 

[flarbear]

I don't think the Dream Edition is by any stretch an afterthought or late-game marketing play. It was shown alongside the Grand Touring at the Gravity unveiling back in November 2023. It has been on the show circuit continuously ever since.

Nobody could drive the models that were shown back then so all we really know is that they unveiled the DE badging at the reveal event. There has been DE badging on the "don't touch" models shown in studios as well. There was no indication that these cars had any different mechanicals under the bodywork and a lot to indicate that they didn't really have complete mechanicals in the first place (no touch, no sit in, etc.). Is there any mechanical indication that the Dream mechanicals weren't a late development other than the badging?

 

[borski]

Nobody could drive the models that were shown back then so all we really know is that they unveiled the DE badging at the reveal event. There has been DE badging on the "don't touch" models shown in studios as well. There was no indication that these cars had any different mechanicals under the bodywork and a lot to indicate that they didn't really have complete mechanicals in the first place (no touch, no sit in, etc.). Is there any mechanical indication that the Dream mechanicals weren't a late development other than the badging?

I have no idea what you mean by 'mechanical indication.' The DE wasn't an afterthought, and they've been thinking about and planning it for a very long time. Some of the badging or whatever may have been adjusted in the final version, but the plan to release a DE is not new.

I know this for a fact, as do some of the rest of the folks here, from prior conversations with Lucid folks.

 

[hmp10]

Porsche and Lamborghini are rarely optimized either, don't kid yourself.

I did not say that Porsche and Lamborghini are optimized, which put so generally is a meaningless statement. "Optimized" can vary widely by individual preferences for how people want power, weight, efficiency, size, and other factors balanced. No vehicle is without myriad compromises. Some people think the Escalade EV is optimized for what they want.

What I said was that Lucid benchmarked the Gravity against the Cayenne and Lamborghini, and that those two brands are at the top of the sport SUV mountain, as both receive very good reviews for performance and handling and are generally recognized to outrun and out-handle most other offerings in the SUV space, which are the characteristics that most people register as "sport".

 

[hmp10]

Nobody could drive the models that were shown back then so all we really know is that they unveiled the DE badging at the reveal event. There has been DE badging on the "don't touch" models shown in studios as well. There was no indication that these cars had any different mechanicals under the bodywork and a lot to indicate that they didn't really have complete mechanicals in the first place (no touch, no sit in, etc.).

All true, but all beside the point. The point was not that we were seeing a final Dream Edition 16 months ago any more than we were seeing a final Grand Touring. The point was that Lucid was telling the market that there was going to be a Dream Edition by unveiling that car along with the Grand Touring and keeping it on the show circuit for the ensuing 16 months.

Is there any mechanical indication that the Dream mechanicals weren't a late development other than the badging?

I never said anything about when the mechanicals were developed. I said that Lucid had a selection of motors available from which to assemble the powertrain configuration of the Gravity Dream, going back to the original Air standard motor (which may or may not be more powerful than the "next-generation" Gravity motors), the Air Dream exotic metallurgy motor, the new Gravity rear motor, and the new, smaller Gravity front motor.

Even if Lucid had developed new mechanicals for the Dream late in the game (which I seriously doubt), it does not mean the Dream was not in the Gravity product plan from the get-go.

 

[PetevB]

What I said was that Lucid benchmarked the Gravity against the Cayenne and Lamborghini, and that those two brands are at the top of the sport SUV mountain, as both receive very good reviews for performance and handling and are generally recognized to outrun and out-handle most other offerings in the SUV space, which are the characteristics that most people register as "sport".

And I'm saying exceeding that is not a high bar. If that was the standard Lucid was holding themselves to I wouldn't be here. Let's be honest, Lucid is still a startup, with the risks (and bugs) that come with that. I'm here because I think Lucid might not just exceed that standard by a little, but blow well past it. Frankly they need to in order to earn my business. Others may differ.

 

[hmp10]

And I'm saying exceeding that is not a high bar.

And I never said or suggested otherwise. Lucid so easily blew past the Taycan in most ways except, perhaps, handling that I have never assumed the Gravity was going to have to struggle to blow past the Cayenne in quite a few metrics. Nevertheless, if you ask most people what is the sportiest SUV on the market, you're probably going to hear "Cayenne" a lot, with a smattering of mentions of the Urus, and some vanishingly rare nods to the Ferrari Purosangue and Maserati Levante. It's probably for that reason that Lucid said it was benchmarking the Gravity against the Cayenne and the Urus. It means they were using those two brands as engineering and design reference points. It does not mean they were going to stop at just matching them.

 

[flarbear]

I have no idea what you mean by 'mechanical indication.' The DE wasn't an afterthought, and they've been thinking about and planning it for a very long time. Some of the badging or whatever may have been adjusted in the final version, but the plan to release a DE is not new.

I know this for a fact, as do some of the rest of the folks here, from prior conversations with Lucid folks.

I'm not talking about what we might know through other avenues. I'm just talking about the data point being used as evidence that "we saw DE over a year ago". No, we absolutely did not "see" an actual DE that long back. We saw a cobbled together "thing" that had a DE badge on it. What was shown is no evidence at all that DE has been under actual development for that long. All we know from what we saw was that the concept that there might be a DE was being considered back then.

Now, if you know that it has been under development for some time through other means - that's great!

But, "I saw a thing with a badge on it at the original unveiling" has absolutely no evidentiary value in this discussion.

 

[flarbear]

All true, but all beside the point. The point was not that we were seeing a final Dream Edition 16 months ago any more than we were seeing a final Grand Touring. The point was that Lucid was telling the market that there was going to be a Dream Edition by unveiling that car along with the Grand Touring and keeping it on the show circuit for the ensuing 16 months.

I thought we had word that there would not be one after all and that the badging shown was just an idea. In other words, they had explicitly denied that those badges were, in fact, telling the market that there was going to be a DE. It turns out there is a DE, but there was also explicit denial that the presence of those badges back then was any indication.

I never said anything about when the mechanicals were developed. I said that Lucid had a selection of motors available from which to assemble the powertrain configuration of the Gravity Dream, going back to the original Air standard motor (which may or may not be more powerful than the "next-generation" Gravity motors), the Air Dream exotic metallurgy motor, the new Gravity rear motor, and the new, smaller Gravity front motor.

Even if Lucid had developed new mechanicals for the Dream late in the game (which I seriously doubt), it does not mean the Dream was not in the Gravity product plan from the get-go.

The specific line I was quoting and responding to was "It was shown alongside the Grand Touring at the Gravity unveiling back in November 2023". We saw something. It had badges. That wasn't a promise, or "telling the market" or anything other than "and can you imagine a dream version of this?"

If we are going to discuss how long those mechanicals have been under development then "it was shown in 11/23" is not compelling evidence for that. Badges were shown. The idea was floated. But was it actually under development? Those appearances don't answer the question.