VW investing up to 5 billion in Rivian.. per NY Times

[DreamTour]

Same for me and my Lucid. I only use the mobile key, exclusively. It burns me when I go to a car wash or valet, as I forget to bring my fob.


I’d like this, but I understand most consumers don’t want this; EVs are confusing enough without a “nerd” mode to confuse you even more. I prefer the “get out of my way” mode as an option that limits what’s on the screen, personally; this might just be preference.

I do get all my nerd data through the API / Home Assistant though, so for me I have the best of both worlds.


You can do this from Home Assistant quicker too, but the app is much more responsive on iOS now that it’s native. It should only get better from here.


I agree I’d like Lucid to add them. I’m less convinced I’ll use either one, however. Maybe the sentry mode, depending on battery usage.

But sure, I agree.


You can do this now, for some appointments, and they’ll be expanding that in the future.


Be more specific - what inputs? Center volume control or steering wheel? You may have something going on; mine responds nearly instantly. The steering wheel is slightly delayed feeling, but it’s not actually delayed; it just has smaller gradations than the center steering wheel. I agree it’s a little confusing.


Neat. Sounds like a good set of features for lucid to crib ideas from.


None of my cars have ever done this, so for me pausing is a habit - but I’ve just never had a car with this, so I guess I don’t miss it.


See above - I don’t want that info there. I’m fine with it being hidden elsewhere, because I want to focus on driving.

I’d be fine making this an option, of course - it’s just not “obviously better,” is all I’m trying to say.


Won’t catch me disagreeing on this one, though I don’t think it would “address some of the issues with the base system.” Sure, you could make the EQ more granular, but you’re still going to be limited by speaker placement, size, and total wattage.


Sure, Rivian’s purchase of ABRP was a very very good move, as that whole team is now working on exactly this. I agree it’s a good feature.

I decided to go back point by point just to indicate where we have agreement and disagreement, because I found it interesting how different people perceive the features and shortcomings of their cars.

The Air is definitely not perfect, but I’m fascinated that my shortcomings aren’t on your list and vice-versa.

This is really good discussion, which was what i was hoping to provoke.

Having worked on building products, you end up with the conundrum of how to prioritize limited development resources. Some things are must have, some are nice to have, and some you'll get preferential disagreement from end users on what they would find valuable. (e.g. more is more less is more)

My opinion in product development is given you can't do everything, you have to stay true to overall design principles so you don't get sidetracked. My take is Lucid in all of it's design thinking is looking for simplicity, use of space, and elegant design. So more techy features (nerd mode) which btw I wouldn't mind having, but not a priority) is lower on their priority list.

I think it's worth mentioning that Rivian has raised (a burned) an orders of magnitude more money than Lucid to this point - thus perhaps no surprise the software is farther along. I think many have noted Lucid's marginal cost breakeven on vehicle is much lower than Rivian because for the same out the door price they are using far less materials (particularly battery)

I'm sure Lucid would have liked to have had more sales volume out of the gate, but their approach to development in my opinion is much more measured and frugal than Rivian. To me that's a sign of a better managed startup. (And will result in less dilution over time). e.g. not spending like drunken sailors because even when it was easier to raise money, i don't think you ever saw the same level of excesses at Lucid as compared to Rivian (which they have spend the last 2 years trying to remove)

My 2 cents.

 

[borski]

I think it's worth mentioning that Rivian has raised (a burned) an orders of magnitude more money than Lucid to this point

And has 3x the number of employees (17k or so to Lucid’s 6.5k or so)

 

[RockSports]

I think it's worth mentioning that Rivian has raised (a burned) an orders of magnitude more money than Lucid to this point - thus perhaps no surprise the software is farther along. I think many have noted Lucid's marginal cost breakeven on vehicle is much lower than Rivian because for the same out the door price they are using far less materials (particularly battery)

I'm sure Lucid would have liked to have had more sales volume out of the gate, but their approach to development in my opinion is much more measured and frugal than Rivian. To me that's a sign of a better managed startup. (And will result in less dilution over time). e.g. not spending like drunken sailors because even when it was easier to raise money, i don't think you ever saw the same level of excesses at Lucid as compared to Rivian (which they have spend the last 2 years trying to remove)

My 2 cents.

That is a fair point about how much Rivian has spent; they've also had over a hundred thousand vehicles on the road. Regarding cash burn inefficiencies, it's an interesting strategic discussion for sure. Is it better to slowly burn money but not get a solid foothold in the marketplace or burn it all down and hope you're producing something worthwhile by the time you're out of money? Rivian has produced software that was worth 5 billion to VW at this point, and they have made some pretty significant improvements in cost per unit since their 2nd quarter shutdown. Lucid is about to release their Gravity, which could be their turnaround moment.

It's too early to tell which strategy worked better; perhaps they both work equally well. Both companies have some pretty amazing products relative to the competition in the EV space. I am invested in Rivian stock. I do not have any Lucid holdings, but depending on Gravity's momentum, I might try to buy in while the price is favorable. I wouldn't call Rivian's strategy worse managed at this point simply because we don't know how it will turn out. Perhaps the result will be the foothold Rivian gained by eating preorder pricing for tens of thousands of people, myself included, and ramping up while spending a crazy amount of capital was the edge they needed to transition from startup to an automaker with solid footing. It could just as easily be that Lucid, following the proverbial slow and steady path, comes out on top. Maybe both approaches will work, and Tesla will wind up folding now that it is in a competitive space. The latter is my personal prediction.

 

[DreamTour]

That is a fair point about how much Rivian has spent; they've also had over a hundred thousand vehicles on the road. Regarding cash burn inefficiencies, it's an interesting strategic discussion for sure. Is it better to slowly burn money but not get a solid foothold in the marketplace or burn it all down and hope you're producing something worthwhile by the time you're out of money? Rivian has produced software that was worth 5 billion to VW at this point, and they have made some pretty significant improvements in cost per unit since their 2nd quarter shutdown. Lucid is about to release their Gravity, which could be their turnaround moment.

It's too early to tell which strategy worked better; perhaps they both work equally well. Both companies have some pretty amazing products relative to the competition in the EV space. I am invested in Rivian stock. I do not have any Lucid holdings, but depending on Gravity's momentum, I might try to buy in while the price is favorable. I wouldn't call Rivian's strategy worse managed at this point simply because we don't know how it will turn out. Perhaps the result will be the foothold Rivian gained by eating preorder pricing for tens of thousands of people, myself included, and ramping up while spending a crazy amount of capital was the edge they needed to transition from startup to an automaker with solid footing. It could just as easily be that Lucid, following the proverbial slow and steady path, comes out on top. Maybe both approaches will work, and Tesla will wind up folding now that it is in a competitive space. The latter is my personal prediction.

All the people doing the real work at Tesla went to Lucid, Rivian etc. There WAS talent at tesla lol. If you are a talented engineer / designer on ev's why would you want to be at tesla right now? Just look at cybertruck execution. Not all of its problems are related to stainless steel body. Some are just basic issues that were not throughly tested.

 

[RockSports]

All the people doing the real work at Tesla went to Lucid, Rivian etc. There WAS talent at tesla lol. If you are a talented engineer / designer on ev's why would you want to be at tesla right now? Just look at cybertruck execution. Not all of its problems are related to stainless steel body. Some are just basic issues that were not throughly tested.

Agree, and some of the issues were due to the CEO's insistence on that crazy design and thick stainless steel body.

 

[Batteryman]

That is a fair point about how much Rivian has spent; they've also had over a hundred thousand vehicles on the road. Regarding cash burn inefficiencies, it's an interesting strategic discussion for sure. Is it better to slowly burn money but not get a solid foothold in the marketplace or burn it all down and hope you're producing something worthwhile by the time you're out of money? Rivian has produced software that was worth 5 billion to VW at this point, and they have made some pretty significant improvements in cost per unit since their 2nd quarter shutdown. Lucid is about to release their Gravity, which could be their turnaround moment.

It's too early to tell which strategy worked better; perhaps they both work equally well. Both companies have some pretty amazing products relative to the competition in the EV space. I am invested in Rivian stock. I do not have any Lucid holdings, but depending on Gravity's momentum, I might try to buy in while the price is favorable. I wouldn't call Rivian's strategy worse managed at this point simply because we don't know how it will turn out. Perhaps the result will be the foothold Rivian gained by eating preorder pricing for tens of thousands of people, myself included, and ramping up while spending a crazy amount of capital was the edge they needed to transition from startup to an automaker with solid footing. It could just as easily be that Lucid, following the proverbial slow and steady path, comes out on top. Maybe both approaches will work, and Tesla will wind up folding now that it is in a competitive space. The latter is my personal prediction.

It’s not just software that VW wanted for the 5 billion, it’s also the EV engineering. You shouldn’t value Rivian Software at 5 billion in the deal.

1 billion now, the rest is based on compatibility and how the collaboration works.