VW investing up to 5 billion in Rivian.. per NY Times

[BS8899]

Nope, on the exterior, the R1S is about the same size! (Slightly different)

The R1S is significantly "taller" than the Gravity, by approx. 12", if I remember correctly. That said, I think the Gravity's ground clearance is lower than the R1S. Thus, the difference in the actual height of the cabin space between the two SUVs is probably less than the 12" exterior height. Nevertheless, I think the R1S cabin space is a few inches taller than that of the Gravity. This might affect headroom and legroom.

On the R1S, the 3rd row seating is actually OK. Both my son ad I are approx. 5ft 11 and it felt comfortable. Clearly, I don't want to sit in the 3rd row for a 10 hour trip. I think a couple of hours is OK.

I've seen the Gravity on display but have not touched or sat in it. I am sure Lucid has done a reasonable job maximizing the internal space. That said, the 12" height difference still concerns me about the Gravity's actual headroom and legroom.

 

[cgm9999]

Maybe i am in the minority, but i don't find myself feeling like there is a killer feature missing in lucid's software stack. It definitely needs refinement, but the bones are there. (excluding expectations on dream drive because well it really hasn't gotten much)

I have what i need to drive the car and enjoy it (apple carplay fills a lot of the gap)

What do people here think is a must have in software that Lucid is short on?

This is a reasonable position, to be sure. It reminds me of when keyless/comfort entry became a thing and my reflex was "How freakin' hard is it to pull a key out of your pocket and hit the unlock button to unlock the car?!". Then, I bought a car with it. If I were buying a new car today and it didn't have keyless/comfort entry, it would seriously bum me out.

The Lucid SW is mediocre. It's not bad in a "1st Gen BMW iDrive" sense but compared to what's out there, you better believe it ain't makin' it, especially at the price point Lucid competes in. But since you asked, the Lucid lacks:

1. A consistent and reliable PaaK system. My Rivian unlocks and locks consistently with my phone to the extant I've literally never had to use the key, not even once;

2. "Nerd mode". My Rivian displays basic things like motor and battery temps in real time. While not a must have, those of us that are car enthusiasts liken these to ICE engine gauges like oil temp/oil pressure/voltimeter guages. They provide us more granular information on the status of the vehicle at any given time. With the Rivian, it gives me extra peace of mind when I'm towing or off-roading to know if I have to back off a bit before something catastrophic happens. Sure, I guarantee Lucid has this safety baked in to their software, but as the driver, gauges give me a greater sense of what the car is doing and therefore, I can adjust my driving accordingly.

3. A functional phone app. No joke, I can walk the 130m to my car from my office entrance before my Lucid wakes up from my phone. That's just sad. My Rivian responds to phone commands like vent windows, open the frunk, and cool the cabin within seconds of pressing the respective icons in the app.

4. A Sentry mode and Dashcam mode. Rivian has both and they work great. Even better, Rivian will be rolling out a new feature in an OTA this year that will allow people to access live view from their cameras, all within the APP. Fantastic feature and yet another example of how Rivian listens to customers and makes it a high priority to implement high value added features.

5. Ability to book service appointments from the app. Self explanatory and yes, Rivian has this.

6. Faster and more responsiveness to button inputs. My Lucid takes literal seconds (about 2 to 3) to pause music or response to volume changes. Not a huge deal, but noticeable and definitely a function of SW.

7. Robust geofencing. God this one would be great. When I'm working in the garage, my Lucid locks and unlocks constantly which drains the battery and increases wear and tear on the mirror motors. Not to mention, it's just annoying as hell. My Rivian has geofencing and as a result, knows when it's home. It will let you decide how you want your Rivian to behave at home, such as remain unlocked (which I do), lock, or leave in whatever state you had it in upon leaving the vehicle. Also, the homelink in Rivian is pretty clever. As you approach your home, a garage door button becomes available and notifies you in the driver cluster. When this happens, one of the buttons on the steering wheel is temporarily assigned as the garage door button (i.e. only within the limited geofenced area). Simply push the appropriate button and your garage door opens and closes. No need for a separate homelink button on the ceiling or rearview mirror.

7. The ability to to have the car's music pause/stop and climate controls cease upon putting the car in park and opening the door. Sometimes I'm listening to music or a podcast I don't want to bother other people with as I get out of the car (such as at home, when I come home from work at 2200hrs).

8. Customization of the Pilot Panel and Driver cluster. To me, there's a ton of wasted space in the instrument cluster that could be put to good use - the aforementioned temp gauges, efficiency graphs, tire pressure graphics, map of the immediate area despite not having navigation on, etc. My Rivian provides all of this in the driver cluster.

9. Better equalizer. The existing one is the definition of bare bones. My Rivian has more individual control of various frequencies and make the mediocre system sound halfway respectable after adjustment. A better equalizer would address some of the issues with the base system.

10. A more comprehensive and intuitive route planner. Rivian not only has their own charging network, but more importantly, they've rolled out a Rivian score for chargers. This allows a smoother, more confident trip planning process because users can now see the reliability score other users have rated an individual charger. Thus, you can plan your route to only use the highest rated chargers and thereby increase your chances of having a smooth charging experience along your route. To me, this is a big one because it directly targets probably one of the biggest obstacles to widespread EV adoption: range anxiety. The better an EV can make the whole charging process, the more people will feel comfortable owning and driving an EV.

Those are just off the top of my head, and again, you asked!

All that said, and it's important to note, I still love my Lucid to death and even with the SW shortcomings, I'd certainly pick it again.

 

[manitou202]

We have a R1S and a Lucid Air Touring. The Rivian definitely has the better UI and software, but the Rivian doesn't come close to the build quality, driving dynamics, and comfort of the Lucid. The rattles, suspension noise, and general harshness of the Rivian is not great for its price point. I get it has serious off road capability but if you drive a new Defender as a comparison, the difference in very noticeable. Our Lucid is so smooth and has driving dynamics up there with the best (M5, Taycan, Panamera).

It seems Lucid has really focused on the chassis, suspension, and driving dynamics. Software has been secondary. Versus Rivian focused on off-road capability and the software. Both are really amazing vehicles for very different reasons, but I wouldn't trade better software in the Lucid for rattles, and worse dynamics.

 

[Pragmatic]

VW obviously also likes the Rivian software. I can see them combining features from ABRP with their EA app. Plus using ABRP rating system to improve the charging network.
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out as VW brings the Scout to market. It seems to be a direct competitor to the current Rivian line-up.

 

[RockSports]

I'm not personally familiar with the R1S, but I thought the Gravity was significantly larger? I've heard the Gravity has the exterior dimensions of the Q7 or X7 and the interior dimensions of a Yukon/Suburban. Is the R1S that large?

The R1S is a true 3 row SUV. I'm not sure about the interior dimensions, but it is a pretty large vehicle.

 

[RockSports]

This is a reasonable position, to be sure. It reminds me of when keyless/comfort entry became a thing and my reflex was "How freakin' hard is it to pull a key out of your pocket and hit the unlock button to unlock the car?!". Then, I bought a car with it. If I were buying a new car today and it didn't have keyless/comfort entry, it would seriously bum me out.

The Lucid SW is mediocre. It's not bad in a "1st Gen BMW iDrive" sense but compared to what's out there, you better believe it ain't makin' it, especially at the price point Lucid competes in. But since you asked, the Lucid lacks:

1. A consistent and reliable PaaK system. My Rivian unlocks and locks consistently with my phone to the extant I've literally never had to use the key, not even once;

2. "Nerd mode". My Rivian displays basic things like motor and battery temps in real time. While not a must have, those of us that are car enthusiasts liken these to ICE engine gauges like oil temp/oil pressure/voltimeter guages. They provide us more granular information on the status of the vehicle at any given time. With the Rivian, it gives me extra peace of mind when I'm towing or off-roading to know if I have to back off a bit before something catastrophic happens. Sure, I guarantee Lucid has this safety baked in to their software, but as the driver, gauges give me a greater sense of what the car is doing and therefore, I can adjust my driving accordingly.

3. A functional phone app. No joke, I can walk the 130m to my car from my office entrance before my Lucid wakes up from my phone. That's just sad. My Rivian responds to phone commands like vent windows, open the frunk, and cool the cabin within seconds of pressing the respective icons in the app.

4. A Sentry mode and Dashcam mode. Rivian has both and they work great. Even better, Rivian will be rolling out a new feature in an OTA this year that will allow people to access live view from their cameras, all within the APP. Fantastic feature and yet another example of how Rivian listens to customers and makes it a high priority to implement high value added features.

5. Ability to book service appointments from the app. Self explanatory and yes, Rivian has this.

6. Faster and more responsiveness to button inputs. My Lucid takes literal seconds (about 2 to 3) to pause music or response to volume changes. Not a huge deal, but noticeable and definitely a function of SW.

7. Robust geofencing. God this one would be great. When I'm working in the garage, my Lucid locks and unlocks constantly which drains the battery and increases wear and tear on the mirror motors. Not to mention, it's just annoying as hell. My Rivian has geofencing and as a result, knows when it's home. It will let you decide how you want your Rivian to behave at home, such as remain unlocked (which I do), lock, or leave in whatever state you had it in upon leaving the vehicle. Also, the homelink in Rivian is pretty clever. As you approach your home, a garage door button becomes available and notifies you in the driver cluster. When this happens, one of the buttons on the steering wheel is temporarily assigned as the garage door button (i.e. only within the limited geofenced area). Simply push the appropriate button and your garage door opens and closes. No need for a separate homelink button on the ceiling or rearview mirror.

7. The ability to to have the car's music pause/stop and climate controls cease upon putting the car in park and opening the door. Sometimes I'm listening to music or a podcast I don't want to bother other people with as I get out of the car (such as at home, when I come home from work at 2200hrs).

8. Customization of the Pilot Panel and Driver cluster. To me, there's a ton of wasted space in the instrument cluster that could be put to good use - the aforementioned temp gauges, efficiency graphs, tire pressure graphics, map of the immediate area despite not having navigation on, etc. My Rivian provides all of this in the driver cluster.

9. Better equalizer. The existing one is the definition of bare bones. My Rivian has more individual control of various frequencies and make the mediocre system sound halfway respectable after adjustment. A better equalizer would address some of the issues with the base system.

10. A more comprehensive and intuitive route planner. Rivian not only has their own charging network, but more importantly, they've rolled out a Rivian score for chargers. This allows a smoother, more confident trip planning process because users can now see the reliability score other users have rated an individual charger. Thus, you can plan your route to only use the highest rated chargers and thereby increase your chances of having a smooth charging experience along your route. To me, this is a big one because it directly targets probably one of the biggest obstacles to widespread EV adoption: range anxiety. The better an EV can make the whole charging process, the more people will feel comfortable owning and driving an EV.

Those are just off the top of my head, and again, you asked!

All that said, and it's important to note, I still love my Lucid to death and even with the SW shortcomings, I'd certainly pick it again.

The software thing for Lucid worries me because of this post. I really like my Rivian software, it just works. My truck does everything it's supposed to do with very little input from me. The software makes sense and things are easy to find. There are also monthly updates and many of them are significant. I've had my T for just about 2 years now and the entire software stack is different from my purchase date, and is about to be updated again to gen 2 in the next week or so.

I want the real leather and the extra luxury, but my Rivian doesn't rattle and it's not very loud. The suspension can get pretty rough though, my wife's BMW handles potholes in a much better way than my Rivian does. Granted truck vs car suspension is some of that but it's still not as good. With that said I don't really understand the people who say CarPlay bridges the gap in software because I've had it in two cars now and it's been less than impressive in both and Rivian's software is far better than relying on CarPlay in my wife's car. So software is important to me, and it sounds like Lucid might not be the best choice for that.

 

[DreamTour]

This is a reasonable position, to be sure. It reminds me of when keyless/comfort entry became a thing and my reflex was "How freakin' hard is it to pull a key out of your pocket and hit the unlock button to unlock the car?!". Then, I bought a car with it. If I were buying a new car today and it didn't have keyless/comfort entry, it would seriously bum me out.

The Lucid SW is mediocre. It's not bad in a "1st Gen BMW iDrive" sense but compared to what's out there, you better believe it ain't makin' it, especially at the price point Lucid competes in. But since you asked, the Lucid lacks:

1. A consistent and reliable PaaK system. My Rivian unlocks and locks consistently with my phone to the extant I've literally never had to use the key, not even once;

Yes, this i classify under "refinements' it exists, but is clunky.

2. "Nerd mode". My Rivian displays basic things like motor and battery temps in real time. While not a must have, those of us that are car enthusiasts liken these to ICE engine gauges like oil temp/oil pressure/voltimeter guages. They provide us more granular information on the status of the vehicle at any given time. With the Rivian, it gives me extra peace of mind when I'm towing or off-roading to know if I have to back off a bit before something catastrophic happens. Sure, I guarantee Lucid has this safety baked in to their software, but as the driver, gauges give me a greater sense of what the car is doing and therefore, I can adjust my driving accordingly.

Might depend on the customer, if you are going for "simplicity" you could also say less is more.

3. A functional phone app. No joke, I can walk the 130m to my car from my office entrance before my Lucid wakes up from my phone. That's just sad. My Rivian responds to phone commands like vent windows, open the frunk, and cool the cabin within seconds of pressing the respective icons in the app.

Definately a refinement, i wonder how much of this can be executed without adding significant vampire drain. Last i recall rivian was notable in its vampire drain, maybe they have improved, but having more heartbeat checks wakes the computer up more and burn more energy.

4. A Sentry mode and Dashcam mode. Rivian has both and they work great. Even better, Rivian will be rolling out a new feature in an OTA this year that will allow people to access live view from their cameras, all within the APP. Fantastic feature and yet another example of how Rivian listens to customers and makes it a high priority to implement high value added features.

Funny enough, i would have said the same thing, then again i had aftermarket dashcams in my last model s and ended up never using it. Why? Cause nobody did anything with the video anyways when someone broke my windows to try and steal an empty cardbox box lol...

5. Ability to book service appointments from the app. Self explanatory and yes, Rivian has this.

Was thinking car software, but app is fair game.

6. Faster and more responsiveness to button inputs. My Lucid takes literal seconds (about 2 to 3) to pause music or response to volume changes. Not a huge deal, but noticeable and definitely a function of SW.

Needs refinement for sure, functional though.

7. Robust geofencing. God this one would be great. When I'm working in the garage, my Lucid locks and unlocks constantly which drains the battery and increases wear and tear on the mirror motors. Not to mention, it's just annoying as hell. My Rivian has geofencing and as a result, knows when it's home. It will let you decide how you want your Rivian to behave at home, such as remain unlocked (which I do), lock, or leave in whatever state you had it in upon leaving the vehicle. Also, the homelink in Rivian is pretty clever. As you approach your home, a garage door button becomes available and notifies you in the driver cluster. When this happens, one of the buttons on the steering wheel is temporarily assigned as the garage door button (i.e. only within the limited geofenced area). Simply push the appropriate button and your garage door opens and closes. No need for a separate homelink button on the ceiling or rearview mirror.

This function works for me in the lucid? pops on the right cluster when you get home? not mapped to a physical button but seems to work?

7. The ability to to have the car's music pause/stop and climate controls cease upon putting the car in park and opening the door. Sometimes I'm listening to music or a podcast I don't want to bother other people with as I get out of the car (such as at home, when I come home from work at 2200hrs).

Could argue that this is user preference? I guess behavior customization? same as next one?

8. Customization of the Pilot Panel and Driver cluster. To me, there's a ton of wasted space in the instrument cluster that could be put to good use - the aforementioned temp gauges, efficiency graphs, tire pressure graphics, map of the immediate area despite not having navigation on, etc. My Rivian provides all of this in the driver cluster.

9. Better equalizer. The existing one is the definition of bare bones. My Rivian has more individual control of various frequencies and make the mediocre system sound halfway respectable after adjustment. A better equalizer would address some of the issues with the base system.

Not sure any tuning will overcome the lack of drivers in the base system... don't think it's physically capable of producing certain frequencies without losing control / distortion.

10. A more comprehensive and intuitive route planner. Rivian not only has their own charging network, but more importantly, they've rolled out a Rivian score for chargers. This allows a smoother, more confident trip planning process because users can now see the reliability score other users have rated an individual charger. Thus, you can plan your route to only use the highest rated chargers and thereby increase your chances of having a smooth charging experience along your route. To me, this is a big one because it directly targets probably one of the biggest obstacles to widespread EV adoption: range anxiety. The better an EV can make the whole charging process, the more people will feel comfortable owning and driving an EV.

I totally agree with this. I think this would be daily functionality that i would like. Everything else is a workaround right now.

Those are just off the top of my head, and again, you asked!

All that said, and it's important to note, I still love my Lucid to death and even with the SW shortcomings, I'd certainly pick it again.

Good list, food for thoughts above...

 

[michel]

I’m riding the sunk-cost fallacy hard.

I am also down on my investment and decided to buy more Rivian and Lucid stocks

 

[Batteryman]

This is a reasonable position, to be sure. It reminds me of when keyless/comfort entry became a thing and my reflex was "How freakin' hard is it to pull a key out of your pocket and hit the unlock button to unlock the car?!". Then, I bought a car with it. If I were buying a new car today and it didn't have keyless/comfort entry, it would seriously bum me out.

The Lucid SW is mediocre. It's not bad in a "1st Gen BMW iDrive" sense but compared to what's out there, you better believe it ain't makin' it, especially at the price point Lucid competes in. But since you asked, the Lucid lacks:

1. A consistent and reliable PaaK system. My Rivian unlocks and locks consistently with my phone to the extant I've literally never had to use the key, not even once;

2. "Nerd mode". My Rivian displays basic things like motor and battery temps in real time. While not a must have, those of us that are car enthusiasts liken these to ICE engine gauges like oil temp/oil pressure/voltimeter guages. They provide us more granular information on the status of the vehicle at any given time. With the Rivian, it gives me extra peace of mind when I'm towing or off-roading to know if I have to back off a bit before something catastrophic happens. Sure, I guarantee Lucid has this safety baked in to their software, but as the driver, gauges give me a greater sense of what the car is doing and therefore, I can adjust my driving accordingly.

3. A functional phone app. No joke, I can walk the 130m to my car from my office entrance before my Lucid wakes up from my phone. That's just sad. My Rivian responds to phone commands like vent windows, open the frunk, and cool the cabin within seconds of pressing the respective icons in the app.

4. A Sentry mode and Dashcam mode. Rivian has both and they work great. Even better, Rivian will be rolling out a new feature in an OTA this year that will allow people to access live view from their cameras, all within the APP. Fantastic feature and yet another example of how Rivian listens to customers and makes it a high priority to implement high value added features.

5. Ability to book service appointments from the app. Self explanatory and yes, Rivian has this.

6. Faster and more responsiveness to button inputs. My Lucid takes literal seconds (about 2 to 3) to pause music or response to volume changes. Not a huge deal, but noticeable and definitely a function of SW.

7. Robust geofencing. God this one would be great. When I'm working in the garage, my Lucid locks and unlocks constantly which drains the battery and increases wear and tear on the mirror motors. Not to mention, it's just annoying as hell. My Rivian has geofencing and as a result, knows when it's home. It will let you decide how you want your Rivian to behave at home, such as remain unlocked (which I do), lock, or leave in whatever state you had it in upon leaving the vehicle. Also, the homelink in Rivian is pretty clever. As you approach your home, a garage door button becomes available and notifies you in the driver cluster. When this happens, one of the buttons on the steering wheel is temporarily assigned as the garage door button (i.e. only within the limited geofenced area). Simply push the appropriate button and your garage door opens and closes. No need for a separate homelink button on the ceiling or rearview mirror.

7. The ability to to have the car's music pause/stop and climate controls cease upon putting the car in park and opening the door. Sometimes I'm listening to music or a podcast I don't want to bother other people with as I get out of the car (such as at home, when I come home from work at 2200hrs).

8. Customization of the Pilot Panel and Driver cluster. To me, there's a ton of wasted space in the instrument cluster that could be put to good use - the aforementioned temp gauges, efficiency graphs, tire pressure graphics, map of the immediate area despite not having navigation on, etc. My Rivian provides all of this in the driver cluster.

9. Better equalizer. The existing one is the definition of bare bones. My Rivian has more individual control of various frequencies and make the mediocre system sound halfway respectable after adjustment. A better equalizer would address some of the issues with the base system.

10. A more comprehensive and intuitive route planner. Rivian not only has their own charging network, but more importantly, they've rolled out a Rivian score for chargers. This allows a smoother, more confident trip planning process because users can now see the reliability score other users have rated an individual charger. Thus, you can plan your route to only use the highest rated chargers and thereby increase your chances of having a smooth charging experience along your route. To me, this is a big one because it directly targets probably one of the biggest obstacles to widespread EV adoption: range anxiety. The better an EV can make the whole charging process, the more people will feel comfortable owning and driving an EV.

Those are just off the top of my head, and again, you asked!

All that said, and it's important to note, I still love my Lucid to death and even with the SW shortcomings, I'd certainly pick it again.

The only thing is a big miss is the dashcam and sentry mode, others not a big deal- do a majority of luxury EV buyers who don’t go off road or tow need battery temp gauges?

 

[skomarla]

Reuters has a dropped an article with an update on how VW and Rivian tied up:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/cloaked-audis-covert-ceo-meeting-how-vws-5-bln-rivian-bet-transpired-2024-06-27/

Honestly, if this holds up, i'm going to be mightily interested in about 4-5 years. My original hope for my Air Touring was to be happy with it for atleast 5 years. I chose to buy it vs lease and justified it as break even after two 3 year lease terms..

if lucid stays dormant on OTA features, they are gonna risk losing customers to those that innovate faster. Audi has fantastic build quality! if the software and the EV power train comes up to snuff, it will be a great combo

 

[Steveinarizona]

So..
.Audi...bad software and powertrain.
Rivian...rough ride in city driving
Mercedes...appearance and non AMG powertrian
BMW...bugs bunny
Genesis...bad dealers
Etc.

I think all the EV makers are struggling but in different ways. To me, the alarming thing seems to be that Lucid has put all its efforts into its new product (Gravity) rather than supporting the Air. I understand doing that but it sends a message that the company can't be trusted to follow through.

I was on the waiting list for a Lucid Air for several years but finally gave up primarily because of bad communications from Lucid. After waiting years, Lucid announced that it would be releasing the specs on the Pure but when it finally did so, it was only the AWD version and no information on how much decontenting would occur on the RWD Pure. When the Genesis GV60 Performance suddenly popped up in my market, it checked as many of my boxes as the Lucid Air...just some different ones.

I understand putting so much of its resources into the Gravity (which is in the market key spot) instead of the Air but I don't understand why the lack of communications. After all this time we know that the Gravity will have a powertrain and we have seen it in design studios but not driven it nor has anyone else.

 

[borski]

I’m honestly just thrilled for more competition. I love my Air, but I have zero issue with having to pick amongst twelve incredible EVs as a consumer rather than just one (or 2 or 3) incredible EV.

Woe is me.

(Lucid will obviously have to continue to step it up in software, and others will have to step it up in other areas too; the future is bright)

 

[BS8899]

https://www.theautopian.com/why-vws-5-billion-rivian-investment-is-a-terrible-omen-for-automakers/

 

[Steveinarizona]

https://www.theautopian.com/why-vws-5-billion-rivian-investment-is-a-terrible-omen-for-automakers/

This and the previous post by General Borski demonstrate the continued presence of the old nostrum: there are glass half full people and glass half empty people. Neither type is necessarily correct but IMHO the former tend to be happier.

 

[Lucken]

So..
.Audi...bad software and powertrain.
Rivian...rough ride in city driving
Mercedes...appearance and non AMG powertrian
BMW...bugs bunny
Genesis...bad dealers
Etc.

I think all the EV makers are struggling but in different ways. To me, the alarming thing seems to be that Lucid has put all its efforts into its new product (Gravity) rather than supporting the Air. I understand doing that but it sends a message that the company can't be trusted to follow through.

I was on the waiting list for a Lucid Air for several years but finally gave up primarily because of bad communications from Lucid. After waiting years, Lucid announced that it would be releasing the specs on the Pure but when it finally did so, it was only the AWD version and no information on how much decontenting would occur on the RWD Pure. When the Genesis GV60 Performance suddenly popped up in my market, it checked as many of my boxes as the Lucid Air...just some different ones.

I understand putting so much of its resources into the Gravity (which is in the market key spot) instead of the Air but I don't understand why the lack of communications. After all this time we know that the Gravity will have a powertrain and we have seen it in design studios but not driven it nor has anyone else.

I don’t know Steve, our i4 is 2 years old, has 21,000 miles on it and not a hint of any issue whatsoever. It’s been absolutely flawless. Our Lucid, aside from the occasional minor software hiccup, has likewise been flawless for 7,000 miles. My fingers are crossed it reaches the same benchmark our i4 has with the same great reliability.

 

[RockSports]

https://www.theautopian.com/why-vws-5-billion-rivian-investment-is-a-terrible-omen-for-automakers/

I read through this article and must have missed the point where this deal is a terrible omen for automakers. Is the idea that since VW admitted its software was crap and it got Rivian's, that somehow signals the end of traditional auto? That doesn't make sense to me any more than switching a seat belt or airbag manufacturer would signal the end of traditional auto. There is much more to a vehicle than its software stack; that's an important piece, but it's still part of the whole.

Even using Rivian's basic code and approach leaves room for unique abilities and feelings from different automakers, as a Porsche and an Audi feel different now. I don't see how the move to EVs spells doom for the big auto players unless they all decide they don't want to invest in the future like VW just did with their software purchase. VW's strength was never in software, but it did have strengths. Porsche has driving dynamics, and Audi makes some great interiors with unique styling. Regular VWs also have their aesthetic, and none of that will change if better software is adopted.

You aren't going to get into a Porsche and see the Rivian yeti smiling at you or see your Audi rendered the way my R1T is on their software. The similarities are going to be in code, not customer experience outside of the basic experience of the software working well. This article seems like an attempt at relevance by adopting a chicken little viewpoint. That parable is told for a reason, and we shouldn't forget what that reason is.

 

[Steveinarizona]

I don’t know Steve, our i4 is 2 years old, has 21,000 miles on it and not a hint of any issue whatsoever. It’s been absolutely flawless. Our Lucid, aside from the occasional minor software hiccup, has likewise been flawless for 7,000 miles. My fingers are crossed it reaches the same benchmark our i4 has with the same great reliability.

Yep. Note that I carefully noted that my complaint about the BMW was the appearance (the one area where you and I disagree). As I have said otherwise, I think they drive great and have mature, working software. People don't realize that BMW has been playing in the electric space for a long time (I3;I8,various phevs).

 

[Lucken]

Yep. Note that I carefully noted that my complaint about the BMW was the appearance (the one area where you and I disagree). As I have said otherwise, I think they drive great and have mature, working software. People don't realize that BMW has been playing in the electric space for a long time (I3;I8,various phevs).

I didn’t realize the Bugs Bunny was an aesthetic reference as opposed to a ‘bugs’ reference as I had interpreted it.

I’ve never heard anyone draw that analogy. Funny.

 

[2BD1]

This is a reasonable position, to be sure. It reminds me of when keyless/comfort entry became a thing and my reflex was "How freakin' hard is it to pull a key out of your pocket and hit the unlock button to unlock the car?!". Then, I bought a car with it. If I were buying a new car today and it didn't have keyless/comfort entry, it would seriously bum me out.

The Lucid SW is mediocre. It's not bad in a "1st Gen BMW iDrive" sense but compared to what's out there, you better believe it ain't makin' it, especially at the price point Lucid competes in. But since you asked, the Lucid lacks:

1. A consistent and reliable PaaK system. My Rivian unlocks and locks consistently with my phone to the extant I've literally never had to use the key, not even once;

I noticed this the day I took delivery. Doors didn’t lock when I walked away from the vehicle. It’s an intermittent issue in my case.

2. "Nerd mode". My Rivian displays basic things like motor and battery temps in real time. While not a must have, those of us that are car enthusiasts liken these to ICE engine gauges like oil temp/oil pressure/voltimeter guages. They provide us more granular information on the status of the vehicle at any given time. With the Rivian, it gives me extra peace of mind when I'm towing or off-roading to know if I have to back off a bit before something catastrophic happens. Sure, I guarantee Lucid has this safety baked in to their software, but as the driver, gauges give me a greater sense of what the car is doing and therefore, I can adjust my driving accordingly.

Agreed. I like the simplicity at times, but would prefer more display options. Lucid needs to understand that its target audience probably owns another luxury vehicle (EV or ICE) and this level of customization is basic stuff.

3. A functional phone app. No joke, I can walk the 130m to my car from my office entrance before my Lucid wakes up from my phone. That's just sad. My Rivian responds to phone commands like vent windows, open the frunk, and cool the cabin within seconds of pressing the respective icons in the app.

100% agree. I’ve always felt the app for my BMW and Volvo could be quicker but, after using Lucid’s app, I now feel those move at warp speed LOL.

4. A Sentry mode and Dashcam mode. Rivian has both and they work great. Even better, Rivian will be rolling out a new feature in an OTA this year that will allow people to access live view from their cameras, all within the APP. Fantastic feature and yet another example of how Rivian listens to customers and makes it a high priority to implement high value added features.

Would be a nice to have but not a deal breaker for me. With that said, this is my first EV and it goes back to my earlier statement on Lucid understanding its target audience. If this is a common feature on EVs at this price point and customers expect it, they should’ve made it available.

5. Ability to book service appointments from the app. Self explanatory and yes, Rivian has this.

Nice to have. Similar features can be found on other luxury mfg apps.

6. Faster and more responsiveness to button inputs. My Lucid takes literal seconds (about 2 to 3) to pause music or response to volume changes. Not a huge deal, but noticeable and definitely a function of SW.

There’s definitely a noticeable lag when changing sound tracks/pausing music. I haven’t noticed the same issue for volume adjustments but I do wish they programmed the volume wheel to increase/decrease the volume more rapidly per turn.

7. Robust geofencing. God this one would be great. When I'm working in the garage, my Lucid locks and unlocks constantly which drains the battery and increases wear and tear on the mirror motors. Not to mention, it's just annoying as hell. My Rivian has geofencing and as a result, knows when it's home. It will let you decide how you want your Rivian to behave at home, such as remain unlocked (which I do), lock, or leave in whatever state you had it in upon leaving the vehicle. Also, the homelink in Rivian is pretty clever. As you approach your home, a garage door button becomes available and notifies you in the driver cluster. When this happens, one of the buttons on the steering wheel is temporarily assigned as the garage door button (i.e. only within the limited geofenced area). Simply push the appropriate button and your garage door opens and closes. No need for a separate homelink button on the ceiling or rearview mirror.

7. The ability to to have the car's music pause/stop and climate controls cease upon putting the car in park and opening the door. Sometimes I'm listening to music or a podcast I don't want to bother other people with as I get out of the car (such as at home, when I come home from work at 2200hrs).

Music I agree. At the very lease, reduce the volume. AC I feel differently. I travel a lot for work and have rented a few EV’s that turn off the AC once in park and the door is open. Sounds good in theory, but if you need to run out of a the car for a sec and a passenger is still inside you can imagine how quickly this will get annoying on a hot day. Yes, the passenger can turn the AC back on after you’ve exited, but it’s an added step in comparison to just have the AC turn off upon locking the vehicle.

8. Customization of the Pilot Panel and Driver cluster. To me, there's a ton of wasted space in the instrument cluster that could be put to good use - the aforementioned temp gauges, efficiency graphs, tire pressure graphics, map of the immediate area despite not having navigation on, etc. My Rivian provides all of this in the driver cluster.

See point #2.

9. Better equalizer. The existing one is the definition of bare bones. My Rivian has more individual control of various frequencies and make the mediocre system sound halfway respectable after adjustment. A better equalizer would address some of the issues with the base system.

Sound system is HORRIBLE. Anything will be a welcome addition at this point. Disclaimer- my car is currently at Lucid getting its rear sub and some speakers replaced. Will update you if quality improves.

10. A more comprehensive and intuitive route planner. Rivian not only has their own charging network, but more importantly, they've rolled out a Rivian score for chargers. This allows a smoother, more confident trip planning process because users can now see the reliability score other users have rated an individual charger. Thus, you can plan your route to only use the highest rated chargers and thereby increase your chances of having a smooth charging experience along your route. To me, this is a big one because it directly targets probably one of the biggest obstacles to widespread EV adoption: range anxiety. The better an EV can make the whole charging process, the more people will feel comfortable owning and driving an EV.

Those are just off the top of my head, and again, you asked!

All that said, and it's important to note, I still love my Lucid to death and even with the SW shortcomings, I'd certainly pick it…

I’ve had my Licid for almost 1 week and, before I saw your post, observed most of what you’ve mentioned above. Like you, even with these issues/dislikes, I would do it all over again…especially since the lease deals are amazing

 

[borski]

1. A consistent and reliable PaaK system. My Rivian unlocks and locks consistently with my phone to the extant I've literally never had to use the key, not even once;

Same for me and my Lucid. I only use the mobile key, exclusively. It burns me when I go to a car wash or valet, as I forget to bring my fob.

2. "Nerd mode". My Rivian displays basic things like motor and battery temps in real time. While not a must have, those of us that are car enthusiasts liken these to ICE engine gauges like oil temp/oil pressure/voltimeter guages. They provide us more granular information on the status of the vehicle at any given time. With the Rivian, it gives me extra peace of mind when I'm towing or off-roading to know if I have to back off a bit before something catastrophic happens. Sure, I guarantee Lucid has this safety baked in to their software, but as the driver, gauges give me a greater sense of what the car is doing and therefore, I can adjust my driving accordingly.

I’d like this, but I understand most consumers don’t want this; EVs are confusing enough without a “nerd” mode to confuse you even more. I prefer the “get out of my way” mode as an option that limits what’s on the screen, personally; this might just be preference.

I do get all my nerd data through the API / Home Assistant though, so for me I have the best of both worlds.

3. A functional phone app. No joke, I can walk the 130m to my car from my office entrance before my Lucid wakes up from my phone. That's just sad. My Rivian responds to phone commands like vent windows, open the frunk, and cool the cabin within seconds of pressing the respective icons in the app.

You can do this from Home Assistant quicker too, but the app is much more responsive on iOS now that it’s native. It should only get better from here.

4. A Sentry mode and Dashcam mode. Rivian has both and they work great. Even better, Rivian will be rolling out a new feature in an OTA this year that will allow people to access live view from their cameras, all within the APP. Fantastic feature and yet another example of how Rivian listens to customers and makes it a high priority to implement high value added features.

I agree I’d like Lucid to add them. I’m less convinced I’ll use either one, however. Maybe the sentry mode, depending on battery usage.

But sure, I agree.

5. Ability to book service appointments from the app. Self explanatory and yes, Rivian has this.

You can do this now, for some appointments, and they’ll be expanding that in the future.

6. Faster and more responsiveness to button inputs. My Lucid takes literal seconds (about 2 to 3) to pause music or response to volume changes. Not a huge deal, but noticeable and definitely a function of SW.

Be more specific - what inputs? Center volume control or steering wheel? You may have something going on; mine responds nearly instantly. The steering wheel is slightly delayed feeling, but it’s not actually delayed; it just has smaller gradations than the center steering wheel. I agree it’s a little confusing.

7. Robust geofencing. God this one would be great. When I'm working in the garage, my Lucid locks and unlocks constantly which drains the battery and increases wear and tear on the mirror motors. Not to mention, it's just annoying as hell. My Rivian has geofencing and as a result, knows when it's home. It will let you decide how you want your Rivian to behave at home, such as remain unlocked (which I do), lock, or leave in whatever state you had it in upon leaving the vehicle. Also, the homelink in Rivian is pretty clever. As you approach your home, a garage door button becomes available and notifies you in the driver cluster. When this happens, one of the buttons on the steering wheel is temporarily assigned as the garage door button (i.e. only within the limited geofenced area). Simply push the appropriate button and your garage door opens and closes. No need for a separate homelink button on the ceiling or rearview mirror.

Neat. Sounds like a good set of features for lucid to crib ideas from.

7. The ability to to have the car's music pause/stop and climate controls cease upon putting the car in park and opening the door. Sometimes I'm listening to music or a podcast I don't want to bother other people with as I get out of the car (such as at home, when I come home from work at 2200hrs).

None of my cars have ever done this, so for me pausing is a habit - but I’ve just never had a car with this, so I guess I don’t miss it.

8. Customization of the Pilot Panel and Driver cluster. To me, there's a ton of wasted space in the instrument cluster that could be put to good use - the aforementioned temp gauges, efficiency graphs, tire pressure graphics, map of the immediate area despite not having navigation on, etc. My Rivian provides all of this in the driver cluster.

See above - I don’t want that info there. I’m fine with it being hidden elsewhere, because I want to focus on driving.

I’d be fine making this an option, of course - it’s just not “obviously better,” is all I’m trying to say.

9. Better equalizer. The existing one is the definition of bare bones. My Rivian has more individual control of various frequencies and make the mediocre system sound halfway respectable after adjustment. A better equalizer would address some of the issues with the base system.

Won’t catch me disagreeing on this one, though I don’t think it would “address some of the issues with the base system.” Sure, you could make the EQ more granular, but you’re still going to be limited by speaker placement, size, and total wattage.

10. A more comprehensive and intuitive route planner. Rivian not only has their own charging network, but more importantly, they've rolled out a Rivian score for chargers. This allows a smoother, more confident trip planning process because users can now see the reliability score other users have rated an individual charger. Thus, you can plan your route to only use the highest rated chargers and thereby increase your chances of having a smooth charging experience along your route. To me, this is a big one because it directly targets probably one of the biggest obstacles to widespread EV adoption: range anxiety. The better an EV can make the whole charging process, the more people will feel comfortable owning and driving an EV.

Sure, Rivian’s purchase of ABRP was a very very good move, as that whole team is now working on exactly this. I agree it’s a good feature.

I decided to go back point by point just to indicate where we have agreement and disagreement, because I found it interesting how different people perceive the features and shortcomings of their cars.

The Air is definitely not perfect, but I’m fascinated that my shortcomings aren’t on your list and vice-versa.