Upgrades and the Monroney Label

[Daniel2022AT]

I am struggling to understand the legal implications of this matter of charging for DD Pro and SS Pro after purchase. The Monroney Label is the definitive legal document from the manufacturer that states the standard equipment and optional equipment that is on a specific vehicle as identified by the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), plus the MSRP of the base price and for each option. This has been required since I think 1958 to ensure full disclosure to protect both consumers and dealers. The Monroney Label is secifically separate from any aftermarket equipment the dealer adds to the vehicle.

The Monroney Label on my vehicle, Lucid Air Touring (delivery March 8, 2023), states the optional equipment includes Dream Drive Pro (MSRP $10,000) which includes Highway Assist and other items, and Surreal Sound Pro (MSRP $4,000). The transactioin price buyer (me) and seller (Lucid) agreed included a 100% discount for those two options. But nevertheless, we did agree on a ntransaction price to accomplish the sale of the vehicle. The Monroney Label declares those options are part of the manufacturer's content on the vehicle that I purchased and own.

Note that I did not order the car with either DDP or SSP. It just appeared on the car that I was sold.

The manufacturer would have to argue that the hardware indeed was sold to me but the software to run it was not. So the upgrade cost is for the software not the hardware.

This argument is problematic. The Monroney Label does not specify if the DD Pro and SS Pro includes just hardware or hardware and software. It states that DD Pro includes Highway Assist, which is a function that requires both hardware and software. So my conclusion is the Monroney Label states both the hardware and the software were sold to me for those optional items on my vehicle.

That hardware versus software argument also appears disingenuous because the total MSRP for each of the options including hardware and software is essentially the same price being chraged for the software only upgrade. It would seem to not make sense from a practical standpoint and counter to the full disclosure of the Monroney Label.

Lucid sold me a car that has equipment on it they sold to me at a discount. Now they want to charge me to allow me to use it. I'm guessing there is fine print about software upgrades but that needs to square with automotive industry regulations. I think the lawyers will have to figure this out.

 

[joec]

I am struggling to understand the legal implications of this matter of charging for DD Pro and SS Pro after purchase. The Monroney Label is the definitive legal document from the manufacturer that states the standard equipment and optional equipment that is on a specific vehicle as identified by the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), plus the MSRP of the base price and for each option. This has been required since I think 1958 to ensure full disclosure to protect both consumers and dealers. The Monroney Label is secifically separate from any aftermarket equipment the dealer adds to the vehicle.

The Monroney Label on my vehicle, Lucid Air Touring (delivery March 8, 2023), states the optional equipment includes Dream Drive Pro (MSRP $10,000) which includes Highway Assist and other items, and Surreal Sound Pro (MSRP $4,000). The transactioin price buyer (me) and seller (Lucid) agreed included a 100% discount for those two options. But nevertheless, we did agree on a ntransaction price to accomplish the sale of the vehicle. The Monroney Label declares those options are part of the manufacturer's content on the vehicle that I purchased and own.

Note that I did not order the car with either DDP or SSP. It just appeared on the car that I was sold.

The manufacturer would have to argue that the hardware indeed was sold to me but the software to run it was not. So the upgrade cost is for the software not the hardware.

This argument is problematic. The Monroney Label does not specify if the DD Pro and SS Pro includes just hardware or hardware and software. It states that DD Pro includes Highway Assist, which is a function that requires both hardware and software. So my conclusion is the Monroney Label states both the hardware and the software were sold to me for those optional items on my vehicle.

That hardware versus software argument also appears disingenuous because the total MSRP for each of the options including hardware and software is essentially the same price being chraged for the software only upgrade. It would seem to not make sense from a practical standpoint and counter to the full disclosure of the Monroney Label.

Lucid sold me a car that has equipment on it they sold to me at a discount. Now they want to charge me to allow me to use it. I'm guessing there is fine print about software upgrades but that needs to square with automotive industry regulations. I think the lawyers will have to figure this out.

Go get yourself a lawyer and find out.

 

[BenTexas]

Go get yourself a lawyer and find out.

Agreed.
Tesla builds pretty much all vehicles with FSD hardware but you have to pay for the software to use it. This practice will likely grow in the future.

 

[Babyrocko1908]

I am struggling to understand the legal implications of this matter of charging for DD Pro and SS Pro after purchase. The Monroney Label is the definitive legal document from the manufacturer that states the standard equipment and optional equipment that is on a specific vehicle as identified by the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), plus the MSRP of the base price and for each option. This has been required since I think 1958 to ensure full disclosure to protect both consumers and dealers. The Monroney Label is secifically separate from any aftermarket equipment the dealer adds to the vehicle.

The Monroney Label on my vehicle, Lucid Air Touring (delivery March 8, 2023), states the optional equipment includes Dream Drive Pro (MSRP $10,000) which includes Highway Assist and other items, and Surreal Sound Pro (MSRP $4,000). The transactioin price buyer (me) and seller (Lucid) agreed included a 100% discount for those two options. But nevertheless, we did agree on a ntransaction price to accomplish the sale of the vehicle. The Monroney Label declares those options are part of the manufacturer's content on the vehicle that I purchased and own.

Note that I did not order the car with either DDP or SSP. It just appeared on the car that I was sold.

The manufacturer would have to argue that the hardware indeed was sold to me but the software to run it was not. So the upgrade cost is for the software not the hardware.

This argument is problematic. The Monroney Label does not specify if the DD Pro and SS Pro includes just hardware or hardware and software. It states that DD Pro includes Highway Assist, which is a function that requires both hardware and software. So my conclusion is the Monroney Label states both the hardware and the software were sold to me for those optional items on my vehicle.

That hardware versus software argument also appears disingenuous because the total MSRP for each of the options including hardware and software is essentially the same price being chraged for the software only upgrade. It would seem to not make sense from a practical standpoint and counter to the full disclosure of the Monroney Label.

Lucid sold me a car that has equipment on it they sold to me at a discount. Now they want to charge me to allow me to use it. I'm guessing there is fine print about software upgrades but that needs to square with automotive industry regulations. I think the lawyers will have to figure this out.

Nope. Your purchase agreement controls i.e. what did you pay for. The label lists what options the car was built with from the manufacturer and is attached to your VIN. Think of it this way -- think of Sirius Satellite radio hardware. That hardware is listed on the label as an upgrade in most cases. You pay for the service generally after a trial period just like with DDP and SSP.

 

[Bobby]

Nope. Your purchase agreement controls i.e. what did you pay for. The label lists what options the car was built with from the manufacturer and is attached to your VIN. Think of it this way -- think of Sirius Satellite radio hardware. That hardware is listed on the label as an upgrade in most cases. You pay for the service generally after a trial period just like with DDP and SSP.

Exactly. And the poster is indeed an attorney.

 

[LucidDropkick]

Alternatively, you can also just accept that you explicitly made an agreement with Lucid to include a 100% discount (presumably because you didn't want either), and not try to muddy up the waters with concerns about the Monroney Label.

Lucid sold me a car that has equipment on it they sold to me at a discount. Now they want to charge me to allow me to use it.

Surely you realize how ridiculous this sounds, given that you explicitly requested not to have it and got it discounted from the price. You can't just turn around and say "just kidding, it's on the Monroney label so you can't charge me extra for using it" and phrase that in a forum post like "I'm struggling to understand the legal implications". You made a separate agreement. It's that simple. Software OTAs have never been part of Monroney labels

Personally, I'd rather not jam up our legal system with nonsense like this because I feel common sense is pretty straight forward on this one.

 

[Babyrocko1908]

Automobile Information Disclosure Act of 1958

15 U.S.C. § 1232

Current through P.L. 118-6 (published on www.congress.gov on 06/14/2023)​

Section 1232 - Label and entry requirements
Every manufacturer of new automobiles distributed in commerce shall, prior to the delivery of any new automobile to any dealer, or at or prior to the introduction date of new models delivered to a dealer prior to such introduction date, securely affix to the windshield, or side window of such automobile a label on which such manufacturer shall endorse clearly, distinctly and legibly true and correct entries disclosing the following information concerning such automobile-
(a) the make, model, and serial or identification number or numbers;(b) the final assembly point;(c) the name, and the location of the place of business, of the dealer to whom it is to be delivered;(d) the name of the city or town at which it is to be delivered to such dealer;(e) the method of transportation used in making delivery of such automobile, if driven or towed from final assembly point to place of delivery;(f) the following information:(1) the retail price of such automobile suggested by the manufacturer;(2) the retail delivered price suggested by the manufacturer for each accessory or item of optional equipment, physically attached to such automobile at the time of its delivery to such dealer, which is not included within the price of such automobile as stated pursuant to paragraph (1);(3) the amount charged, if any, to such dealer for the transportation of such automobile to the location at which it is delivered to such dealer; and(4) the total of the amounts specified pursuant to paragraphs (1), (2), and (3);(g) if one or more safety ratings for such automobile have been assigned and formally published or released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under the New Car Assessment Program, information about safety ratings that-(1) includes a graphic depiction of the number of stars, or other applicable rating, that corresponds to each such assigned safety rating displayed in a clearly differentiated fashion indicating the maximum possible safety rating;(2) refers to safety rating categories that may include frontal impact crash tests, side impact crash tests, and rollover resistance tests (whether or not such automobile has been assigned a safety rating for such tests);(3) contains information describing the nature and meaning of the crash test data presented and a reference to additional vehicle safety resources, including http://www.safecar.gov; 1 and(4) is presented in a legible, visible, and prominent fashion and covers at least-(A) 8 percent of the total area of the label; or(B) an area with a minimum length of 4½ inches and a minimum height of 3½ inches; and(h) if an automobile has not been tested by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under the New Car Assessment Program, or safety ratings for such automobile have not been assigned in one or more rating categories, a statement to that effect.
1 So in original. Probably should be "http://www.safercar.gov;".
15 U.S.C. § 1232

 

[borski]

I am struggling to understand the legal implications of this matter of charging for DD Pro and SS Pro after purchase. The Monroney Label is the definitive legal document from the manufacturer that states the standard equipment and optional equipment that is on a specific vehicle as identified by the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), plus the MSRP of the base price and for each option. This has been required since I think 1958 to ensure full disclosure to protect both consumers and dealers. The Monroney Label is secifically separate from any aftermarket equipment the dealer adds to the vehicle.

The Monroney Label on my vehicle, Lucid Air Touring (delivery March 8, 2023), states the optional equipment includes Dream Drive Pro (MSRP $10,000) which includes Highway Assist and other items, and Surreal Sound Pro (MSRP $4,000). The transactioin price buyer (me) and seller (Lucid) agreed included a 100% discount for those two options. But nevertheless, we did agree on a ntransaction price to accomplish the sale of the vehicle. The Monroney Label declares those options are part of the manufacturer's content on the vehicle that I purchased and own.

Note that I did not order the car with either DDP or SSP. It just appeared on the car that I was sold.

The manufacturer would have to argue that the hardware indeed was sold to me but the software to run it was not. So the upgrade cost is for the software not the hardware.

This argument is problematic. The Monroney Label does not specify if the DD Pro and SS Pro includes just hardware or hardware and software. It states that DD Pro includes Highway Assist, which is a function that requires both hardware and software. So my conclusion is the Monroney Label states both the hardware and the software were sold to me for those optional items on my vehicle.

That hardware versus software argument also appears disingenuous because the total MSRP for each of the options including hardware and software is essentially the same price being chraged for the software only upgrade. It would seem to not make sense from a practical standpoint and counter to the full disclosure of the Monroney Label.

Lucid sold me a car that has equipment on it they sold to me at a discount. Now they want to charge me to allow me to use it. I'm guessing there is fine print about software upgrades but that needs to square with automotive industry regulations. I think the lawyers will have to figure this out.

Furthermore, even if this were true (which it isn't, as is evidenced quite simply by the example of Sirius, or BMW's heated seats for an even more egregious example), any reasonable argument would posit that the Monroney sticker prices are only applicable at the time of sale. Monroney labels only show what is available and included in the vehicle at the time of purchase, and price changes after that fact are par for the course, so you don't even have the 'it got more expensive than they promise' angle, either.

 

[stratus]

Today, I am extremely grateful that I learned what a Monroney label is.

 

[borski]

Today, I am extremely grateful that I learned what a Monroney label is.

Technically, a Monroney sticker. But lots of people use them interchangeably.

 

[stratus]

Technically, a Monroney sticker. But lots of people use them interchangeably.

Now I am overwhelmed with emotion.

 

[Drendino]

I’m not an attorney, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Seems like a weak argument.

 

[MorganB]

Today, I am extremely grateful that I learned what a Monroney label is.

I learned that term on this forum also. My sticker is blank except for the final price which is higher than what I paid because I had legacy pricing.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Huh, I never cared about any of that stuff, and still don’t after reading this thread. The car has the features I paid for. It never occurred to me to think that I would be entitled to features I did not pay for. If however I paid for features, and then the auto maker took them away, well then I’d be pissed, but I don’t think that has happened in this thread.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

I’m not an attorney, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Seems like a weak argument.

I am an attorney and it's a very weak argument.

Senator Mike Monroney, OK, was a hero. He changed forever how cars were marketed to the public in the US. Before the label, it was a free for all. Auto sales agreements in the 1950s, during the post war boom, had MASSIVE disclaimers: what see is what you get, regardless of what you discover later. No posi-traction? SOL.

The Monroney "label" was a huge step forward in consumer protection at a time when there was NO consumer protection. Especially for vehicles. A car buyer would go into a showroom and be at the mercy of the dealership as to how the car was claimed to be fitted out. It was done so consumers could compare apples to apples.

The label was a DISCLOSURE document, not a binding legal contract or offer to sell. It represents how the car was built at the factory. And MSRP. Dealers could add and subject (think rust proofing), if disclosed. But now a buyer knew for sure how the car was built.

As many posters have said, what you actually buy is determined by your sales agreement.

 

[Drendino]

I am an attorney and it's a very weak argument.

Senator Mike Monroney, OK, was a hero. He changed forever how cars were marketed to the public in the US. Before the label, it was a free for all. Auto sales agreements in the 1950s, during the post war boom, had MASSIVE disclaimers: what see is what you get, regardless of what you discover later. No posi-traction? SOL.

The Monroney "label" was a huge step forward in consumer protection at a time when there was NO consumer protection. Especially for vehicles. A car buyer would go into a showroom and be at the mercy of the dealership as to how the car was claimed to be fitted out. It was done so consumers could compare apples to apples.

The label was a DISCLOSURE document, not a binding legal contract or offer to sell. It represents how the car was built at the factory. And MSRP. Dealers could add and subject (think rust proofing), if disclosed. But now a buyer knew for sure how the car was built.

As many posters have said, what you actually buy is determined by your sales agreement.

I’m sure you are an excellent attorney. That’s an interesting piece of history. Thanks for sharing.

 

[AustinAir]

based on my sticker, I believe what is listed is what your car comes with. For example my vehicle shows DDP but NOT SSP. I’m sure it includes hardware for SSP though

 

[hydbob]

The difference between the two labels is where DDPro and SSPro appear. Under OP's it's listed under optional equipment and in @AustinAir it's listed under standard equipment.

 

[Steveinarizona]

The difference between the two labels is where DDPro and SSPro appear. Under OP's it's listed under optional equipment and in @AustinAir it's listed under standard equipment.

Which makes sense because for that car it was standard!

 

[canuck]

I am an attorney and it's a very weak argument.

Senator Mike Monroney, OK, was a hero. He changed forever how cars were marketed to the public in the US. Before the label, it was a free for all. Auto sales agreements in the 1950s, during the post war boom, had MASSIVE disclaimers: what see is what you get, regardless of what you discover later. No posi-traction? SOL.

The Monroney "label" was a huge step forward in consumer protection at a time when there was NO consumer protection. Especially for vehicles. A car buyer would go into a showroom and be at the mercy of the dealership as to how the car was claimed to be fitted out. It was done so consumers could compare apples to apples.

The label was a DISCLOSURE document, not a binding legal contract or offer to sell. It represents how the car was built at the factory. And MSRP. Dealers could add and subject (think rust proofing), if disclosed. But now a buyer knew for sure how the car was built.

As many posters have said, what you actually buy is determined by your sales agreement.

Thank you for the added background on the Monroney Label.

I have bought a lot of cars over the years and, whenever possible, ask for the Monroney label.
The feature descriptions on the Monroney label are often more concise than the marketing terms.
Over the last decade, as brochures have gone 'online', web sites make it difficult to see all of the features that are actually included with a vehicle.