Thoughts on Sitting in a Gravity

[Bus Driver]

Agree. I'd even say something like "200 miles on 80% -> 10% range" - that would be a reasonable step between two fast chargers.

It doesn't. I've tried several MEB platform cars and none meet their claimed range, especially on the highway. The real world range on the highway for ID.Buzz is 200 miles. And this is with 120km/h (~75mph) speed limit that is in Switzerland. It becomes even worse in Italy with 130km/h speed limit (and everyone speeding) or especially in Germany with no speed limit.

So now you’re back to “second generation” EVs, like the Tesla Model Ss and Model Xs that were produced and sold in the early to mid 2010s. That’s no longer adequate for EVs built today. That’s too bad.

 

[hmp10]

As a "fun recreation vehicle", I think a realizable (not EPA) range of 300 miles is not unreasonable. A VW Buzz with an 86kWh battery is supposed to have a 293-mile range. I have not seen actual range test results on this configuration. Most Germany cars meet/exceed their claimed range rating. If the VW Buzz does that, it is not too far off.

Yes, but remember this assumes using 100% of the available battery capacity. Not only does that stress the battery, it leaves no margin for dealing with the myriad of problems you can encounter with CCS charging stations in the U.S.

On a road trip we will sometimes charge up to near 100% if we're going to start driving immediately, but we invariably plan charging stops at 20-30% SOC in case we encounter traffic or weather problems along the way or have to find an alternate charging stop. A heavy downpour, for instance, can reduce range by over 10% because of the rolling resistance the tires encounter in pushing water aside.

If you want 300 miles of highway range driving at realistic freeway speeds (average U.S. freeway speed is 78 mph) while protecting your battery and allowing for possible roadway or charging problems, you need a vehicle with at least a 450-mile EPA rating.

Our Air Dream P on 21" wheels is rated at 451 miles. We typically find that a ~240 highway leg uses a bit under 70% of the battery pack capacity. As that amounts to over 3 hours of driving, it's about all we can do without needing a rest stop, anyway.

 

[joec]

Yes, but remember this assumes using 100% of the available battery capacity. Not only does that stress the battery, it leaves no margin for dealing with the myriad of problems you can encounter with CCS charging stations in the U.S.

On a road trip we will sometimes charge up to near 100% if we're going to start driving immediately, but we invariably plan charging stops at 20-30% SOC in case we encounter traffic or weather problems along the way or have to find an alternate charging stop. A heavy downpour, for instance, can reduce range by over 10% because of the rolling resistance the tires encounter in pushing water aside.

If you want 300 miles of highway range driving at realistic freeway speeds while protecting your battery and allowing for possible roadway or charging problems, you need a vehicle with at least a 450-mile EPA rating.

100 times this.

I wish it weren't so, but one needs to take EPA claims and "convert" them to real-world results. Such is the nature of advertising in America.

My Touring, with an EPA of 425 miles, has on occasion gotten more than 300 miles. But I generally don't count on that, even, when I plan out a charging strategy. Especially once you start factoring all the many conditions you might be up against on a trip, it's much safer to plan stops at 250-280 increments.

I had the pleasure of driving around a Chevy Bolt recently. Great little car. But with 280 miles of stated range and slow charging speeds, I'd probably never take it on a road trip of any sort. That's fine, for a second car you never plan to use beyond treking around the city and immediate surrounding area. But you have to go into that with open eyes.

 

[BS8899]

Yes, but remember this assumes using 100% of the available battery capacity. Not only does that stress the battery, it leaves no margin for dealing with the myriad of problems you can encounter with CCS charging stations in the U.S.

On a road trip we will sometimes charge up to near 100% if we're going to start driving immediately, but we invariably plan charging stops at 20-30% SOC in case we encounter traffic or weather problems along the way or have to find an alternate charging stop. A heavy downpour, for instance, can reduce range by over 10% because of the rolling resistance the tires encounter in pushing water aside.

If you want 300 miles of highway range driving at realistic freeway speeds (average U.S. freeway speed is 78 mph) while protecting your battery and allowing for possible roadway or charging problems, you need a vehicle with at least a 450-mile EPA rating.

Our Air Dream P on 21" wheels is rated at 451 miles. We typically find that a ~240 highway leg uses a bit under 70% of the battery pack capacity. As that amounts to over 3 hours of driving, it's about all we can do without needing a rest stop, anyway.

I think the charging practices are regional dependent. I drive mostly the Arizona to Southern Cal and then head north to the Bay Area routes. In this region, there is an abundance of fast DC chargers en route. I start with 100% charge from home, and I often go down to 5% (or less) before I recharge. With this practice, I can cover my 780-mile (Phoenix to Marin County) trip with 2 charging stops in the Lucid (AGT). In my R1S (large pkg), I have to make 3-4 stops.

Yes, maintaining the SoC at 100% continuously is not advised because of the resultant higher electrode voltage and corrosion. I only do that on my first leg (starting from home). Thereafter, I keep the SoC at 75-80%.

The routes I travel is blessed with an abundance of EV fast chargers (once you cross the AZ-CA Stateline). As such, I am comfortable running the SoC down to 5%, knowing that I won't be stranded. With that, I minimize the number of charging stops. Obviously, there is the alternative practice of making more frequent charging stops and only running it down to 20% SoC and charging back to 70% SoC. I don't claim one methodology is better than the other.

 

[hmp10]

I think the charging practices are regional dependent.

Absolutely. You have the good fortune to road trip in perhaps the optimal EV environment: ubiquitous and reliable DC fast chargers, little in the way of cold temperatures, not much rain. Where I live and road trip, about the only thing in our favor is absence of cold temperatures.

 

[momo3605]

On the other hand, legroom in that configuration would have gone from parsimonious to nonexistent, leaving you as I’ve griped before, with a space fit only for housepets, small children and leg amputees.

Do you carry tall people in the 3rd row a lot? I've usually found for large families, the taller people will sit up front and the shorter people/kids will sit in the back.

 

[momo3605]

My Touring, with an EPA of 425 miles, has on occasion gotten more than 300 miles. But I generally don't count on that, even, when I plan out a charging strategy. Especially once you start factoring all the many conditions you might be up against on a trip, it's much safer to plan stops at 250-280 increments.

Once you get into 20" and 21" wheels, it drops off even more. Then you're looking at closer to 200 mile increments. I wonder if the largest-battery Gravity will have more real-world range than the Air Pure/Touring with 19s.

 

[BS8899]

Once you get into 20" and 21" wheels, it drops off even more. Then you're looking at closer to 200 mile increments. I wonder if the largest-battery Gravity will have more real-world range than the Air Pure/Touring with 19s.

To the extent that the drag coefficient is larger on the Gravity (0.24 vs 0.21), and the wheels are larger (correct?), I'd expect the Gravity to be challenged to have better real-world range. Thoughts?

 

[hmp10]

To the extent that the drag coefficient is larger on the Gravity (0.24 vs 0.21), and the wheels are larger (correct?), I'd expect the Gravity to be challenged to have better real-world range. Thoughts?

Hard to know yet, but I tend to think you're right, especially if, by real-world range, one means highway driving. EPA ratings encompass a range of speeds, but at highway speeds aerodynamics become the biggest factor in reducing range.

Not only is the Gravity's drag coefficient higher, but the frontal surface area is larger, even further increasing aerodynamic drag. And I believe the 22-23" wheels wear 265mm front rubber and 295mm rear rubber, the same as on the Sapphire. (Not sure about the 20-21" and 21-22" wheel options.) Also, the Gravity wheels -- at least the ones I've seen -- have dispensed with the aero blades found on most Airs. Derek Jenkins said in an interview that doing so did not have "much" of an impact on range, but "not much" is still something.

This means the large-battery Gravity might get a better EPA rating based on mixed driving than a small-pack Touring or Pure, but when sustained highway speeds bring aerodynamics more into play, the Gravity's range will fall away from the EPA rating more quickly than an Air's.

I assume the Gravity's new-generation motor revisions and the marginally-larger battery pack (120kWh vs. the 112, 117, and 118kWh on the large-pack Airs) will somewhat offset the above factors, but I don't see any way the Gravity will beat any of the Airs on highway range (except possibly the Sapphire, which is engineered to increase downforce at speed.)