Tesla FSD

[illopp00]

I do actually find FSD useful in supervised mode, particularly in heavy traffic or when it can read signs, traffic lights etc, However the level needed to jump to pure hands off and ignoring the car is drastic in complexity vs the amount of effort I need to add to guide the steering wheel.

Here is a new twist.,...

MSN

 

[borski]

FSD is an ADAS feature like highway assist. But it does more. Yes it makes mistakes. But so can Highway Assist. You can’t tell me you don’t have to occasionally disengage HA because someone jumps in front of you or traffic stops abruptly.

You guys are acting like you’re supposed to trust FSD with your lives. As long as you stay vigilant and keep your hands on the wheel, it’s easy to monitor. If it starts going the wrong way, just grab the wheel a little tighter and it’ll disengage.

I had it on my last model 3 back in the very early v10 days when it was really unreliable, but I never so much as scratched a wheel. Monitor and disengage as needed. It’s easy

I have absolutely no problem with anything you just said, except one thing: I have not disengaged HA if traffic stops or someone cuts in front of me since 2.4. It works fine, and handles both cases.

There is one case in which it *consistently* makes a mistake; specific left exits on the 101. But it does that *every time*, which means it’s easy for me to adjust for. HA rarely *surprises me*, and that is my point.

Moreover, I don’t disagree that the systems are similar! Both can have errors, and even if you think Tesla’s is more reliable - fine. I’d be fine with that.

But Tesla markets it as a hands free “full self driving” solution. Literally the name alone is misleading. *That* is my issue. Because people *do* trust FSD with their lives, because that is how Tesla markets it.

That’s not political or controversial; it is a fact that Tesla markets it as fully capable of driving around a city or highway completely on its own, and it absolutely is not capable of doing that. That is a fact, and it is irresponsible (and borderline illegal, though that remains to be seen) for Tesla to market it as such, today.

That’s it. Highway Assist is an assistance tool, not a replacement for the driver.

I agree that in reality, FSD is an ADAS just like HA. I don’t even care if you think it’s better. I’m fine with that.

I just wish Tesla would say that.

 

[momo3605]

I have absolutely no problem with anything you just said, except one thing: I have not disengaged HA if traffic stops or someone cuts in front of me since 2.4. It works fine, and handles both cases.

There is one case in which it *consistently* makes a mistake; specific left exits on the 101. But it does that *every time*, which means it’s easy for me to adjust for. HA rarely *surprises me*, and that is my point.

Moreover, I don’t disagree that the systems are similar! Both can have errors, and even if you think Tesla’s is more reliable - fine. I’d be fine with that.

But Tesla markets it as a hands free “full self driving” solution. Literally the name alone is misleading. *That* is my issue. Because people *do* trust FSD with their lives, because that is how Tesla markets it.

That’s not political or controversial; it is a fact that Tesla markets it as fully capable of driving around a city or highway completely on its own, and it absolutely is not capable of doing that. That is a fact, and it is irresponsible (and borderline illegal, though that remains to be seen) for Tesla to market it as such, today.

That’s it. Highway Assist is an assistance tool, not a replacement for the driver.

I agree that in reality, FSD is an ADAS just like HA. I don’t even care if you think it’s better. I’m fine with that.

I just wish Tesla would say that.

Tesla has recently changed the name to FSD (Supervised) if that helps lol

 

[segbrk]

Tesla has recently changed the name to FSD (Supervised) if that helps lol

Yes, clearing the way so that they can again roll out a new ADAS package and call it "FSD (no seriously guys we mean it this time)"

 

[borski]

Tesla has recently changed the name to FSD (Supervised) if that helps lol

Strikes me roughly the same as the more appropriate name for their humanoid robots:

Completely Autonomous (when driven by a human)

 

[Tâm]

I do actually find FSD useful in supervised mode, particularly in heavy traffic or when it can read signs, traffic lights etc, However the level needed to jump to pure hands off and ignoring the car is drastic in complexity vs the amount of effort I need to add to guide the steering wheel.

Here is a new twist.,...

MSN

That was a deer that died, but it already happened to this 28-year-old motorcyclist:

Tesla in Seattle-Area Crash That Killed Motorcyclist Was Using Self-Driving System, Authorities Say​

 

[fadooly]

huh?

Tesla has been in the market for what 15 years give or take while Lucid only couple of years.

I believe Lucid in 10 years time it will out shine legacy automakers + get closer to Tesla.

if you invest today in Lucid, I am sure you will make millions

I have been long time investor for Tesla and I made good money but I do not think it can make me more , I am taking a return that make at least 1000% , not just double to triple. but, Lucid will make that.

note that I have been in the stock market for more than 15 years. I just sold my position in Nvidia, so you can take a guess how much I made on that

If you want to gamble more I think FFIE stock is showing promises in 10 years as well for not very obvious reasons only few ppl know about

 

[hmp10]

I believe Lucid in 10 years time it will out shine legacy automakers + get closer to Tesla.

I've prognosticated earlier on this forum that I think it possible that in 10-15 years Lucid might even supplant Tesla as a leader in the EV space.

That's about the time span since Tesla launched the original Model S and, as Tesla's subsequent growth has shown, it is a very long time in the world of business and technology. And not everything is wine and roses in Tesla-world these days, especially outside the U.S.

Like you, I made good money on Tesla stock before dumping it . . . and today I almost doubled my shares in Lucid.

 

[MGRMLN]

Following the letter of the law, you don't pass someone unless you can do it without exceeding the speed limit, so that's naturally what autonomous cars will do for liability. People have this strange assumption that passing is an exception where you are allowed to go as fast as possible, but that's just not true.

HP and torque have to do with acceleration and maneuverability, not speed. It is safer to drive a car with more HP and torque slowly than it is to drive a car with less HP and torque slowly, because it can more effectively maneuver to avoid accidents. Just like how it's safer to use sharp knives in the kitchen. You still don't want to hand a powerful car or a sharp knife to a child or a drunk, but in modestly competent hands they are both safer by doing what is expected of them quickly and without resistance.

It's called "active safety".
You drive a car with a surplus of acceleration, handling and braking capability, so you can use those capabilities to avoid situations.

I started this thread because I was impressed by FSD. I don't think it's worth buying a lesser car for however. And, as I've said previously, I got my AGT because I love to drive, which it does beautifully. But having a more evolved supervised hands free option would be appreciated. I know they are working on it.

 

[CWedge411]

FSD all around is years ahead of anyone else but Mercedes. Mercedes actually has Level 4 Today! (no hands, no eyes, no paying attention) IN THE US!

Catch? Of course there's a catch....its only in Las Vegas and 1 other small place. The magic with FSB is it's AI based, where I believe Mercedes is all programmed. To be honest I'd rather the AI based. Ai will learn faster than being programmed and more suited to handle new situations.

For highway cruising there is a lot of competition.

For back roads....FSD has NO Competition.

The PLUS, FSD just uses 360 cameras, so it's Technology wise possible for all car companies to license it and just feed it cameras they already have and let it drive on any car. 1 Car company has already done that, we will find out one day, who that is.

 

[CWedge411]

I've prognosticated earlier on this forum that I think it possible that in 10-15 years Lucid might even supplant Tesla as a leader in the EV space.

That's about the time span since Tesla launched the original Model S and, as Tesla's subsequent growth has shown, it is a very long time in the world of business and technology. And not everything is wine and roses in Tesla-world these days, especially outside the U.S.

Like you, I made good money on Tesla stock before dumping it . . . and today I almost doubled my shares in Lucid.

That's assuming Tesla stops innovating today. Which, I could see them slowing down innovation as they become giant and "a legacy like car company" and slow down because they are so big.

 

[hmp10]

That's assuming Tesla stops innovating today. Which, I could see them slowing down innovation as they become giant and "a legacy like car company" and slow down because they are so big.

There's no reason inherent in being big for innovation to slow down. Innovation has more to do with leadership and the infusion of new talent into the ranks. It Is in those scores that I think the long-term risk to Tesla lies.

 

[Tâm]

FSD all around is years ahead of anyone else but Mercedes. Mercedes actually has Level 4 Today! (no hands, no eyes, no paying attention) IN THE US!

Catch? Of course there's a catch....its only in Las Vegas and 1 other small place.

Clarification: Mercedes has sold L3 Drive Pilot (BMW Personal Pilot-like) to consumers but not L4 (Waymo-like). In the US, Mercedes L3 covers NV and CA with approved roads shown on its website:

 

[sk8ndad]

FSD is an ADAS feature like highway assist. But it does more. Yes it makes mistakes. But so can Highway Assist. You can’t tell me you don’t have to occasionally disengage HA because someone jumps in front of you or traffic stops abruptly.

You guys are acting like you’re supposed to trust FSD with your lives. As long as you stay vigilant and keep your hands on the wheel, it’s easy to monitor. If it starts going the wrong way, just grab the wheel a little tighter and it’ll disengage.

I had it on my last model 3 back in the very early v10 days when it was really unreliable, but I never so much as scratched a wheel. Monitor and disengage as needed. It’s easy

I absolutely agree with what you said, however, I see numerous Tesla drivers that are not at all watching the road and I think this is due to Tesla's hype of FSD being self driving. As you're very aware if you are not attentive in the Lucid it all but kicks you.

 

[borski]

The magic with FSB is it's AI based, where I believe Mercedes is all programmed. To be honest I'd rather the AI based. Ai will learn faster than being programmed and more suited to handle new situations.

“AI” is unpredictable, which is the issue. Debugging an AI-based system is very very difficult when it fails.

For highway cruising there is a lot of competition.

For back roads....FSD has NO Competition.

The issue is that FSD is not good at back roads either. I’m glad you’ve had a good experience, but I definitely have not.

The PLUS, FSD just uses 360 cameras, so it's Technology wise possible for all car companies to license it and just feed it cameras they already have and let it drive on any car. 1 Car company has already done that, we will find out one day, who that is.

Except that is also what makes it hard to extend, because cameras *cannot see everything*. They cut sensors due to cost-cutting, not due to it being better; stop buying their hype.

Moreover, cars already have ultrasonic, radar, and other sensors. They are trivial to integrate and license into other software.

How do I know? Comma.ai is *better than Tesla’s FSD* imho, and also uses only a phone camera and the rest of the sensors on the car. It’s still not amazing, but it’s better than FSD.

It’s those additional sensors that make that possible, because radar can see things that to cameras are otherwise “invisible.”

But yeah man, you do you. Eyes are probably all you need to run a marathon safely too, since it’s just a straight line, so consider throwing on some deafening ear protection, plugging your nose, and making sure you don’t eat or drink anything so that you don’t mix up your sense of sight with taste or anything else. Wouldn’t want to run into any “sensor synthesis” issues, since our brains, like the computers they’ve built, definitely can’t make sense of that much information.

 

[momo3605]

I absolutely agree with what you said, however, I see numerous Tesla drivers that are not at all watching the road and I think this is due to Tesla's hype of FSD being self driving. As you're very aware if you are not attentive in the Lucid it all but kicks you.

I think you notice more news about people not paying attention and accidents with FSD because there are 100x more people using it than any other ADAS. Yes there are always a few bad apples that ruin it for everyone, but outside of those, I think majority of people aren’t dumb enough to think it’s real self driving.

NHTSA has gone after Tesla more than a few times and have required Autopilot and FSD to monitor the driver more than any other system.

Not only will it kick you out if you look away for a more than a few seconds. On top of that, it will disable for the rest of your drive, and then if you keep doing it they will temporarily suspend you from using it altogether for a few weeks.

 

[Leftlane]

I absolutely agree with what you said, however, I see numerous Tesla drivers that are not at all watching the road and I think this is due to Tesla's hype of FSD being self driving. As you're very aware if you are not attentive in the Lucid it all but kicks you.

I see numerous drivers in all kinds of cars, with zero ADAS, not watching the road at all - is that preferable? FSD absolutely prompts you if you aren’t paying attention and will issue strikes that disable the feature as well.

 

[levsha]

As long as you stay vigilant and keep your hands on the wheel, it’s easy to monitor. If it starts going the wrong way, just grab the wheel a little tighter and it’ll disengage.

I find it to be more stressful for me than just driving by myself: if I have to monitor everything around to ensure it's the right time to do the left turn I'd be also ok to just do the turn, and I feel much safer doing that when I feel it safe than also monitoring that the car won't do it when it is not and waiting to stop it from doing that.
Assistants that predictably do their little job sure: adaptive cruise control, lane keeping. Assistants that continuously monitor surrounding and provide me additional information of course: blind spot monitoring, traffic signs recognition. Assistants that jump immediately when something has to be done NOW yes: emergency breaking on frontal collision, pedestrians monitoring, driver's inaction monitoring.
But self driving features, that usually work - no until I'll feel safe. As long as I'll expect it to make mistake I'll feel like a driving instructor next to a student driver (that doesn't even have self-preservation instinct!)

 

[borski]

I find it to be more stressful for me than just driving by myself: if I have to monitor everything around to ensure it's the right time to do the left turn I'd be also ok to just do the turn, and I feel much safer doing that when I feel it safe than also monitoring that the car won't do it when it is not and waiting to stop it from doing that.
Assistants that predictably do their little job sure: adaptive cruise control, lane keeping. Assistants that continuously monitor surrounding and provide me additional information of course: blind spot monitoring, traffic signs recognition. Assistants that jump immediately when something has to be done NOW yes: emergency breaking on frontal collision, pedestrians monitoring, driver's inaction monitoring.
But self driving features, that usually work - no until I'll feel safe. As long as I'll expect it to make mistake I'll feel like a driving instructor next to a student driver (that doesn't even have self-preservation instinct!)

I couldn’t agree more. The reason I like HA is its consistency. When it messes up, I can almost always accurately predict it now, and it’s rare.

So when it does, I am already adjusting for it as I see the left turn exit coming up, not last-second. I have watched FSD succeed and then fail on the same turn, which is precisely my point.

 

[borski]

Elon Musk May Have Made a Huge Mistake on Full Self-Driving That It's Too Late to Correct

Tesla is yet again in hot water with regulators over its decision to rely exclusively on cameras for its "Full Self-Driving" feature.

futurism.com

FSD is great! …unless it’s raining, or foggy, or too sunny, or snowing, or you have a leaf on your camera, or there’s a bug stuck on the lens…

With no redundancy, you’re just screwed. That’s not rocket science.

Can it be done with just cameras? Maybe. I don’t think using AI is the right approach because I’d rather it be predictable, but maybe. I’m the first to admit nearly anything is possible with enough engineering time and investment.

The more important question is should it be done with just cameras, to which the answer is a hard no. You need redundancy. You need the sensors to be able to tell you things cameras can’t see. This should not be hard to grasp. Different senses provide different information, just like in humans (to oversimplify), and it is the synthesis of that information that allows us to make sense of the world.

Deaf people do just fine in life, and many of them hate being called disabled. But at the end of the day, they glean less information than hearing-enabled people glean, and have to make sense of the world with less information, which is harder.

Blind people develop workarounds like using a cane, or echolocation… why? Because they have redundant sensors. If sight fails them, they can use their sense of hearing to make sense of the world around them; less perfectly, but well enough to manage.

I do not understand why anyone would decide that hamstringing your vehicle with *less* useful information would somehow make it better. The synthesis argument is trash. Other manufacturers have shown it isn’t an issue.

So, Occam’s razor says it’s purely cost-cutting, and will screw then in the end.

We shall see.