Taking Care of the Battery - Suggestions from Battery Engineer from Lucid

[boydracing]

Decided to pull the trigger on a Lucid Gravity purchase/deposit. I consulted with my cousin who worked for Lucid as well as Rivian. He had some interesting things to say, almost axioms to consider:
1. Try not to use DC Fast chargers. On long trips you may not have a choice so if you can top off at Level 2 chargers, it is easier on the battery
2. Try not to charge above 80% if you can. In order to get over 80%, the battery will need to physically swell to accept the charge over 80%.
3. Level 2 charging does not damage the battery, but constant DC fast charging does
4. A larger battery and range is better for longevity and range as the vehicle 'sips' the electrons in a miserly fashion. Consider the reduced range of running from near zero to 80% as the norm and trips in a leisure fashion.

As for me picking Lucid and the Gravity:
1. I need the room for gear and dogs.
2. VW and Rivian has a joint partnership that really improves Rivian. If something does not work out on Lucid, Rivian R1S is my 'plan b'
3. Met Peter Rawlingson and my cousin said the Lucid is the closest thing to a european EV in terms of design, experience, and driving. I am a devout Porsche and Corvette previous owner and racer. Lucid is the best for me as I believe in the difference Lucid engineering delivers.

In closing, these 4 points every EV owner should be aware of. They don't obviously need to follow, just be aware of the physics and engineering for a measured result from use.

 

[Bus Driver]

Decided to pull the trigger on a Lucid Gravity purchase/deposit. I consulted with my cousin who worked for Lucid as well as Rivian. He had some interesting things to say, almost axioms to consider:
1. Try not to use DC Fast chargers. On long trips you may not have a choice so if you can top off at Level 2 chargers, it is easier on the battery
2. Try not to charge above 80% if you can. In order to get over 80%, the battery will need to physically swell to accept the charge over 80%.
3. Level 2 charging does not damage the battery, but constant DC fast charging does
4. A larger battery and range is better for longevity and range as the vehicle 'sips' the electrons in a miserly fashion. Consider the reduced range of running from near zero to 80% as the norm and trips in a leisure fashion.

As for me picking Lucid and the Gravity:
1. I need the room for gear and dogs.
2. VW and Rivian has a joint partnership that really improves Rivian. If something does not work out on Lucid, Rivian R1S is my 'plan b'
3. Met Peter Rawlingson and my cousin said the Lucid is the closest thing to a european EV in terms of design, experience, and driving. I am a devout Porsche and Corvette previous owner and racer. Lucid is the best for me as I believe in the difference Lucid engineering delivers.

In closing, these 4 points every EV owner should be aware of. They don't obviously need to follow, just be aware of the physics and engineering for a measured result from use.

Thank you for your four tips. With regards to tip number 4 - are you saying it would be better for my battery’s longevity to run it down from 80% to close to 0%, versus say, 90% to 20%?

I charge my car up to 100% on an L2 charger about once a week. This allows me to get to work and back again without having to stop and charge. I arrive home after my 280 mile commute with a little under 20% remaining.

 

[boydracing]

Level 2 charging is not supposed to damage or reduce the life of the battery. However, #2 comes into play. If you need to charge to that and you don't need to hit a DC fast charge - makes perfect sense.

 

[Tâm]

Thank you for your four tips. With regards to tip number 4 - are you saying it would be better for my battery’s longevity to run it down from 80% to close to 0%, versus say, 90% to 20%?

I charge my car up to 100% on an L2 charger about once a week. This allows me to get to work and back again without having to stop and charge. I arrive home after my 280 mile commute with a little under 20% remaining.

To me it is more risky at 0%. At a low state of charge, especially in freezing cold weather, it might not behave as when it's not low: You might get stranded.

If my drive takes 70%, I would avoid the lower state of charge choice so I would choose 100-30% rather than 80-10%.

If a load takes 10 people to lift and move, it's possible to do the same with fewer people but those fewer people would have to work harder and strain their muscles more.

That's the same with driving at 0%. The voltage is lower (fewer laborers) so the cells must work harder to compensate.

 

[Bus Driver]

To me it is more risky at 0%. At a low state of charge, especially in freezing cold weather, it might not behave as when it's not low: You might get stranded.

If my drive takes 70%, I would avoid the lower state of charge choice so I would choose 100-30% rather than 80-10%.

If a load takes 10 people to lift and move, it's possible to do the same with fewer people but those fewer people would have to work harder and strain their muscles more.

That's the same with driving at 0%. The voltage is lower (fewer laborers) so the cells must work harder to compensate.

I like your clarification very much. Thank you. Intuitively it felt right to me, what I’ve been doing. Charging to 100%, driving off pretty soon after, and avoiding DC fast charging altogether.

 

[PetevB]

My guidelines would be a bit different than what's mentioned above.

1. Limit the amount of time the battery spends above 60% if you can. The battery degrades significantly faster when it sits highly charged. Close to 50% is ideal. If you can for example sit overnight at 55-65% and then charge to 80% just before you leave the battery will degrade substantially more slowly than if you charge to 80% and sit there over the weekend. Sitting at 100% for any extended periods will really impact battery life.

2. Limit discharging below 15-20% where possible.

3. Use battery pre-conditioning when DC fast charging.

4. The ideal cycle pattern for minimum degradation is ~55-20% (depending on chemistry).

My Model 3 LR lost 15% of its range over 80k miles, more than typical. I did a pretty good job not going above 80% unless I was road tripping, but I did a lot of trips where I'd hit multiple superchargers with <5% battery, sometimes skipping pre-conditioning in order to maximize speed/ range. In hindsight this was likely responsible of a lot of the extra degradation. With our new car we've switched to charging to 65% unless we're going somewhere.

LFP have different rules entirely.

 

[boydracing]

My guidelines would be a bit different than what's mentioned above.

1. Limit the amount of time the battery spends above 60% if you can. The battery degrades significantly faster when it sits highly charged. Close to 50% is ideal. If you can for example sit overnight at 55-65% and then charge to 80% just before you leave the battery will degrade substantially more slowly than if you charge to 80% and sit there over the weekend. Sitting at 100% for any extended periods will really impact battery life.

2. Limit discharging below 15-20% where possible.

3. Use battery pre-conditioning when DC fast charging.

4. The ideal cycle pattern for minimum degradation is ~55-20% (depending on chemistry).

My Model 3 LR lost 15% of its range over 80k miles, more than typical. I did a pretty good job not going above 80% unless I was road tripping, but I did a lot of trips where I'd hit multiple superchargers with <5% battery, sometimes skipping pre-conditioning in order to maximize speed/ range. In hindsight this was likely responsible of a lot of the extra degradation. With our new car we've switched to charging to 65% unless we're going somewhere.

LFP have different rules entirely.

Comments as I am no expert nor ever owned an EV. I have driven a few tho:
#1. totally agree and this will be my practice for long term (more than a week of not use)
#2. Makes sense unless you are going on trip and the 'needs outweigh the rules'
#3. this is an awesome recommendation. My cousin did say something about this and makes perfect sense.
#4. did not know this. Spoke to Cousin who worked at Lucid and Rivian. Best just to send screen shot:

 

[EZEVDriver]

Two years in and still DC fast charging almost all the time to 75 or 80%. Battery health is still very good, maybe 4% degradation. I'll switch to L2 charging when my free three years at EA ends and then I may even charge 40-60% on a daily basis.

 

[DeaneG]

Be aware that batteries are also subject to calendar degradation. They'll lose capacity with time no matter how careful you are. My own mantra is to keep it in the 20%-80 range unless road tripping, and not worry about anything else. Cars, no matter how lovely, are ultimately consumable tools.

 

[PetevB]

Comments as I am no expert nor ever owned an EV. I have driven a few tho:
#1. totally agree and this will be my practice for long term (more than a week of not use)
#2. Makes sense unless you are going on trip and the 'needs outweigh the rules'
#3. this is an awesome recommendation. My cousin did say something about this and makes perfect sense.
#4. did not know this. Spoke to Cousin who worked at Lucid and Rivian. Best just to send screen shot:
View attachment 27216

The difference between the ideal being 20-80 or 20-55 may be down to chemistry. Teslas, for example, ramp fast charge down rapidly from ~30% onwards, and are pretty slow above 50%. Meanwhile I understand the Gravity will hold nearly full charge to 50%, while our Audi E-Tron GT and Hyundai held it close to 80%. Not sure how much is chemistry vs thermal management, but I have seen reports showing 20-55% being ideal (energy out vs degradation). More, smaller cycles were either equal or worse, while longer cycles like 80-20 were well worse too (on that chemistry, which is likely closer to what Tesla is using).

Most cars are consumable, but I look at taking maximum care of the battery selfishly. Again chemistry dependent, but for the tested battery charging to 80% for two years resulted in 8% capacity loss vs 5% loss charging to 55%. So in the out years you could have 3%+ more range on that car. Personally I don’t feel like having a lot of range in the tank above 200 miles on most days buys me anything, but another 10+ miles range on a road trip does.

 

[hmp10]

Decided to pull the trigger on a Lucid Gravity purchase/deposit. I consulted with my cousin who worked for Lucid as well as Rivian. He had some interesting things to say, almost axioms to consider:
1. Try not to use DC Fast chargers. On long trips you may not have a choice so if you can top off at Level 2 chargers, it is easier on the battery
2. Try not to charge above 80% if you can. In order to get over 80%, the battery will need to physically swell to accept the charge over 80%.
3. Level 2 charging does not damage the battery, but constant DC fast charging does

This has been the conventional wisdom about EV charging for some time. However, in a recent interview with Tom Moloughney, Emad Dlala, Lucid's Senior Vice President of Powertrain, says the data they collect from the Lucid fleet indicate that frequent DC fast charging can actually improve the health and life of Lucid battery packs, as does a mix of DCFC and Level 2 AC charging. Moloughney's surprise indicates just how radical a departure from conventional wisdom Dlala's information is. The discussion begins at 25:30:

 

[boydracing]

This has been the conventional wisdom about EV charging for some time. However, in a recent interview with Tom Moloughney, Emad Dlala, Lucid's Senior Vice President of Powertrain, says the data they collect from the Lucid fleet indicate that frequent DC fast charging can actually improve the health and life of Lucid battery packs, as does a mix of DCFC and Level 2 AC charging. Moloughney's surprise indicates just how radical a departure from conventional wisdom Dlala's information is. The discussion begins at 25:30:

This is awesome information and a great find! I am a fan of Emad.

 

[californiaboy935]

This has been the conventional wisdom about EV charging for some time. However, in a recent interview with Tom Moloughney, Emad Dlala, Lucid's Senior Vice President of Powertrain, says the data they collect from the Lucid fleet indicate that frequent DC fast charging can actually improve the health and life of Lucid battery packs, as does a mix of DCFC and Level 2 AC charging. Moloughney's surprise indicates just how radical a departure from conventional wisdom Dlala's information is. The discussion begins at 25:30:

I think my personal experience however, anecdotal supports this notion. I have gone 56k miles and super charged 99.875% of them… okay more like 95% but have seen little degradation; 4%-6% in two years of ownership. And I drive the Lucid 19” hard and put her away wet, absolute joy to drive. @Denali_Dane can attest to the beauty and the fact that she’s still kicking even with the miles on her.

She’s prepared to turn the old saying “it’s not the age, it’s the mileage” on its head!

 

[californiaboy935]

This is awesome information and a great find! I am a fan of Emad.

Emad is some of the talent I hope we don’t see a departure of due to Rawlinson leaving. What he’s done with the powertrain is simply amazing.

 

[Cosmo Cruz]

So when the battery won't charge/hold a charge/loses umph you throw the car away?
Or, if you like the car, just get a new battery ... I mean, electric motors -- they work or they don't.

What's the expected lifetime on the Lucid electric motors before they need refurbishment?

I've replaced chargeable batteries for my Makita drill several times over 20+ years of use. Motor is fine. HVAC blower runs continuously -- 20+ years on that motor too.

So it just comes down to: does your car bring joy?

“A path is only a path, and there is no affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you . . . Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself alone, one question . . . Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't it is of no use.”​

On the other hand, a path with heart is easy; it does not make you work at liking it.”
― Carlos Castaneda, The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge

 

[hmp10]

I think my personal experience however, anecdotal supports this notion. I have gone 56k miles and super charged 99.875% of them… okay more like 95% but have seen little degradation; 4%-6% in two years of ownership.

You can tell you are in California. Being able to do 56K miles of fast CCS charging on the east coast would be a nearly impossible feat . . . especially using Electrify America, where a fully-functioning location without an hour-long wait to plug in has been as scarce as hen's teeth.

With the Lucid's range enough to get us back and forth across the state on a single charge and longer road trips relatively rare, almost all our charging has been Level 2 home charging.

In any case, our experience with battery life mirrors your tracking of Dlala's observations from the other end. According to API data, our battery pack has about 90.4% of its original 118-kWh capacity (although it shows a battery health level of 94.3, whatever that metric means):

Field 4, capacity_kwhr: 106.68999761529267
Field 11, battery_health_level: 94.3000014051795
Field 16, battery_cell_type: BATTERY_CELL_TYPE_SDI_50G (2)

There is a Target store we pass often that has both Supercharger and CCS fast charging stations, the latter run by our local power company instead of the dreaded EA. I have already decided that when our Gravity arrives I'm going to pay to do an occasional charge there just for the sake of the battery pack.

 

[californiaboy935]

You can tell you are in California. Being able to do 56K miles of fast CCS charging on the east coast would be a nearly impossible feat . . . especially using Electrify America, where a fully-functioning location without an hour-long wait to plug in has been as scarce as hen's teeth.

With the Lucid's range enough to get us back and forth across the state on a single charge and longer road trips relatively rare, almost all our charging has been Level 2 home charging.

In any case, our experience with battery life mirrors your tracking of Dlala's observations from the other end. According to API data, our battery pack has about 90.4% of its original 118-kWh capacity (although it shows a battery health level of 94.3, whatever that metric means):

Field 4, capacity_kwhr: 106.68999761529267
Field 11, battery_health_level: 94.3000014051795
Field 16, battery_cell_type: BATTERY_CELL_TYPE_SDI_50G (2)

There is a Target store we pass often that has both Supercharger and CCS fast charging stations, the latter run by our local power company instead of the dreaded EA. I have already decided that when our Gravity arrives I'm going to pay to do an occasional charge there just for the sake of the battery pack.