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hmp10

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Lucid has said little about the technology of the Air motors but, due to their very high power density, my brother had begun to suspect that they might be an axial flux design. The less efficient radial flux design dominates in EV applications, but there have been some indications that EV manufacturers were starting to look at axial flux designs for EVs, particularly with the growing interest in hub motors. As far as we could find, though, none had not made it to market.

We had both pored over the exploded view of the drive unit on the Lucid website and concluded, based on visible geometry, that they were the more conventional radial flux design. But there were still some aspects of the motor's performance that seemed to comport more with an axial design.

"Car & Driver" just published a review of the Dream claiming that Lucid does, in fact, use axial flux motors:


The relevant passage is:

"The axial-flux front and rear motors are identical, and each weighs a mere 163 pounds. They're a big part of how Lucid managed to get S-class space into a car with a 116.5-inch wheelbase . . . ."

(The article also answered a question that has been the subject of speculation on the Lucid forums: each of the 22 battery modules weighs 51.8 pounds, for a total of 1140 pounds of battery pack.)
 

Lucken

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Very impressive. A couple of points:

I wish he had done this at the far more common 150kW chargers. 350kW chargers are still very rare and it would have been more useful for most of us to see the 150kW results. This was an obvious best case scenario with an Ideal charger and an ideal preconditioned battery in what appeared to be ideal weather.

Just as important, do we know if the charging software was the same as what's now in the consumer's hands? I'm assuming this is a testing car with unknown software. So I'm going to inject a bit of healthy skepticism until we see actual owners reporting the same speeds. They very well might, I'd just like to see it.
 

hmp10

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I wish he had done this at the far more common 150kW chargers. 350kW chargers are still very rare and it would have been more useful for most of us to see the 150kW results.
Moloughney said the point of this test was to test Lucid's claims about the car's charging capabilities. To do that, he had to test using the same conditions on which the claims are based.

Just as important, do we know if the charging software was the same as what's now in the consumer's hands? I'm assuming this is a testing car with unknown software.
In the comments section under the video, Moloughney said this was a pre-production car but that it had all the production software relating to charging loaded into it for the test.
 

Lucken

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In the comments section under the video, Moloughney said this was a pre-production car but that it had all the production software relating to charging loaded into it for the test.
OK, didn't read the comments since I never actually viewed it on YouTube. As long as all that charging software was the same version as what the consumer gets, the results should be valid. :)
 

SDHacker

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He also stated on an insideevs podcast that he asked Lucid about doing the charging test at their facility but they turned him down. Lucid wanted him to use a public charger so there was no appearance of a rigged or ideal setup.
 

hydbob

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Yea that's why I went to a 150kw charger to do my test since those are much more prevalent. 14% SOC to 80% SOC in 37 minutes! Still not bad!
 

manitou202

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If it can add about 60% (300 miles) in 30 minutes at a 150kW station, that means a 30 minute break about every 4hrs of driving. That's perfect in my book. Honestly with three kids we will struggle to make it four hours between charges anyway.
 

dawktah LucidGT

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If it can add about 60% (300 miles) in 30 minutes at a 150kW station, that means a 30 minute break about every 4hrs of driving. That's perfect in my book. Honestly with three kids we will struggle to make it four hours between charges anyway.
Have tablet will travel...

Well, sort of, I so feel you
 

FFT

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Tom Moloughney just posted the video of his full charging test of the Lucid Air:


What do I make of this ? Not savvy enough with EV battery tech to know whether he is a Lucid conspiracist/Tesla fanboy spewing hate or facts. Thoughts?
 

hydbob

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Well, compare the credentials of the two and see who you would trust more to talk about the things they are talking about. I know who I would choose to talk about battery tech and charging...
 

hmp10

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Warren Redlich is a shirt-tail DUI lawyer in West Palm Beach that is running a side career as a Tesla disciple who sells a bunch of Musk-worshipping merchandise on the internet. He is quite likely also a short seller. While he's always tried to discredit anything that implies shade against Tesla, he has become absolutely obsessed with discrediting Lucid and Peter Rawlinson -- probably because he understands they are the biggest threat yet to Tesla's technical dominance in EVs.

He has posted dozens of videos over the past couple of years claiming Lucid is a fraud and a giant stock scam. He even went so far as to claim that the Casa Grande factory was a fake facade to support the stock scam, that none of the machinery worked, that no car would ever be built there, and that the Design Studios were also fake showrooms. Some of his followers even claimed that the demo Lucid's were actually car bodies placed on Tesla chassis. Redlich recently put up a video attacking "Bear's Workshop" videos of construction of the AMP-2 expansion in Case Grande with the tagline "Lucid is just pushing dirt around".

As each of Redlich's hysterical screeches about fraud were disproven, he moved on to the next. Ever since the EPA range and efficiency ratings came out on Lucid, Redlich has been claiming that Lucid's efficiency claims are fraudulent and based on a lie about the size of the battery pack. This is not the first video he has posted in that vein. Either misunderstanding or deliberately misconstruing charge losses and how EPA range calculations are done, Redlich is just being the same moron in this video that he has always been.

He's enough of a lawyer to understand how far out on a limb he is with these claims of fraud, so somewhere in his videos he makes sure to insert "I think" a few times and to say -- usually with a wink and a nod -- that he could, of course, be wrong in his views.

Here are a couple of teasers for two recent videos that perfectly capture what Redlich is all about:

Screen Shot 2021-10-07 at 10.35.45 PM.png
 
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manitou202

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Here is a great video from Bjorn highlighting charging loses. There is a combination of energy lost to heat, inefficiencies, and the car pulling power while charging to cool or heat the battery.

So there is nothing wrong with the Lucid requiring 134kWh to fill a 118kWh battery. Is 13% loss worse than other EVs? Hard to know for sure, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. No other EV can touch Lucid at the moment.

These Tesla fans are just jealous that Lucid built a car that not only goes much further on a charge, is more efficiency, but also charges faster.

 

hmp10

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These Tesla fans are just jealous that Lucid built a car that not only goes much further on a charge, is more efficiency, but also charges faster.
What Redlich and his acolytes don't seem to realize is that, if the Lucid battery pack really is 134-138 kWh, it makes the time for a full recharge even more extraordinary.
 

Adnillien

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His comments about the EPA documents showing Lucid has a 138.6 kWhr batery prove he is a moron. In is calculation he assumes that battery voltage is constant and at its 100% state of charge voltage during its entire discharge cycle to arrive at 138.6 kWhr. Everyone who is old enough to have had an incandescent flashlight knows that battery voltage is not constant and the flashlight becomes dimmer at the end of battery life (Warren definitely looks old enough). Although not good, using the battery voltage at 50% state of charge would be a better estimate but still flawed. Using the voltage at 100% SOC assuming it is constant is incredibly ignorant.

It is common knowledge that batteries have losses during charging just like Tom says. Charging at over 300 kW will generate some heat that must be removed. That heat and the energy to remove it are both part of the charging losses. Besides, Tom pronounced his last name several times in his video and Warren cannot even get that right.
 

Lucken

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The guy is a quack. But OK, let’s play devil’s advocate and let’s assume it’s true and Lucid actually uses a battery slightly larger than claimed. Who gives a flying you know what? It still gets the claimed range and the range is the key element. Most people who are concerned about range look at the stated EPA range. Most have no idea about the nuances of efficiency, heat losses, etc. Sorry Warren, Lucid customers won’t be running to the exits over your video.

If he wants to discuss false claims, good grief, start with Tesla!

If it walks like a duck….
 

manitou202

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What Redlich and his acolytes don't seem to realize is that, if the Lucid battery pack really is 134-138 kWh, it makes the time for a full recharge even more extraordinary.
This is so true. If Lucid could pack a 134kWh battery into the Air and then charge it with essentially zero loses in 80 minutes, that by itself would be a massive breakthrough.
 

Rob Stark

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The EPA required 114 kWh to fill a nominally 100 kWh(104 kWh gross) Model S for their test.

Tesla Superchargers don't charge for kWh lost to charging losses.

118 kWh x 1.14= 134.52

The fact that Tesla gives away electricity at their Superchargers doesn't make their cars more efficient.
 

FFT

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Warren Redlich is a shirt-tail DUI lawyer in West Palm Beach that is running a side career as a Tesla disciple who sells a bunch of Musk-worshipping merchandise on the internet. He is quite likely also a short seller. While he's always tried to discredit anything that implies shade against Tesla, he has become absolutely obsessed with discrediting Lucid and Peter Rawlinson -- probably because he understands they are the biggest threat yet to Tesla's technical dominance in EVs.

He has posted dozens of videos over the past couple of years claiming Lucid is a fraud and a giant stock scam. He even went so far as to claim that the Casa Grande factory was a fake facade to support the stock scam, that none of the machinery worked, that no car would ever be built there, and that the Design Studios were also fake showrooms. Some of his followers even claimed that the demo Lucid's were actually car bodies placed on Tesla chassis. Redlish recently put up a video attacking "Bear's Workshop" videos of construction of the AMP-2 expansion in Case Grande with the tagline "Lucid is just pushing dirt around".

As each of Redlich's hysterical screeches about fraud were disproven, he moved on to the next. Ever since the EPA range and efficiency ratings came out on Lucid, Redlich has been claiming that Lucid's efficiency claims are fraudulent and based on a lie about the size of the battery pack. This is not the first video he has posted in that vein. Either misunderstanding or deliberately misconstruing charge losses and how EPA range calculations are done, Redlich is just being the same moron in this video that he has always been.

He's enough of a lawyer to understand how far out on a limb he is with these claims of fraud, so somewhere in his videos he makes sure to insert "I think" a few times and to say -- usually with a wink and a nod -- that he could, of course, be wrong in his views.

Here are a couple of teasers for two recent videos that perfectly capture what Redlich is all about:

View attachment 273
Thanks !!! Well, that provides all the context I needed to hear.
 

Chirpy

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Nov 15, 2021
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Happy Thanksgiving to those in the US.

Like many of you, I watched the Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield (Transport Evolved) video back in April with David Lickfold, Associate Director of Chassis and Vehicle Dynamics at Lucid. I watched it again today and against the background of all the additional information we now have from long-served motoring journalists I found it a very interesting watch. More things made more sense.

As an ex JLR engineer he will be well used to getting the best out of heavy cars...
 
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