Lucid Intends to Deliver First Level 4 Autonomous EVs for Consumers with NVIDIA

Sorr
I know very well what models are. I have a Ph.D. in Computer Science. I also have some knowledge of AI models, specifically LLMs.

I was asking specifically what are these "catch-all solutions models" you were referring to.
Sorry, with all due respect (seriously), I couldn’t help but react to you’re first two sentences above as follows…
1761760681991.gif
 
I love how quick they move on from fixing all the other problems. Lucid should change their slogan from Compromise Nothing to “meh good enough”
Two things can be true at once. They can be thinking about forward looking software while also simultaneously fixing bugs in the current software. In fact, they should be.

Software engineers didn’t write this press release.
 
Two things can be true at once. They can be thinking about forward looking software while also simultaneously fixing bugs in the current software. In fact, they should be.

Software engineers didn’t write this press release.
Seriously, do people think that the same engineer who needs 3–4 years to help develop autonomous driving models are now trying to write firmware code to reduce dashboard notifications? It's like going to a restaurant with great service but crappy food and expecting the waitstaff to double as chefs to improve the food quality.
 
Then these guys are carpenters cuz their house is never finished. And they seem okay with it.

Perhaps change to “Compromise Unless Nagged About It”
Yes, bugs will always exist in software. It is extremely difficult, and sometimes impossible, to write provably secure or provably bug-free software.

So yes, the car will continuously improve, and bugs that crop up will continuously get fixed. That’s the other side of OTAs; you could, alternatively, buy a vehicle that doesn’t get OTAs, and live with the bugs until you can get to a dealer if there is eventually a software fix they can install.

But if you expect every release to have zero bugs, or to have fixed every prior but, you’re in for a world of unmet expectations.

I agree there are too many bugs today and I assume they’re in full “bug bash” mode but people seem to forget that that won’t remain true forever. Eventually, they will fix most of these bugs (just like the Air, which isn’t perfect, but much better).

And then, it will be a more stable system.

Today is not the future, and the future doesn’t look like today.

I have no idea if they can do L4 by next year; I do not share the overt cynicism, but I do share the skepticism.

However, the Gravity having bugs is not what prevents that from happening. The people working on ADAS are not the same people working on infotainment; if that isn’t already clear, please let that sink in. There are multiple teams, and the ADAS team… doesn’t suck.
 
Also, humans kill dozens on the road every day. Almost 40,000 people died on the roads last year in the US alone so let's not try and paint a narrative that it's just FSD killing people.
I hear this argument a lot, but the difference is that in those cases it’s almost always clearly a human’s fault. Cars, generally, don’t just drive into large objects on their own; but with FSD (and other ADAS, much less often), they do.

I’m all for building better ADAS systems, but the idea that “FSD doesn’t kill people, cars kill people” is a strawman. Of course, people driving cars kill other people sometimes. But that’s not relevant to whether or not FSD does. You could try to make the argument that statistically FSD is better, and that may be true; but Tesla fudges the numbers so much we can’t currently know.

In short: imho, the bar for ADAS to not kill someone can and should be higher than the bar for a human to. Otherwise, they add additional risk instead of removing it.

I have yet to see a meta-study of ADAS systems and their contributions (or otherwise) to safety, but would love to.
 
I asked a specific question and Rogue started explaining to like an idiot. I am setting his expectations he knows how to respond to my question.
I know. My response was a joke. All good.
 
They delete all the good jokes!
Only when they amount to a personal attack.

His was meant as a gentle rib, and he stated that clearly up front.
 
Only when they amount to a personal attack.

His was meant as a gentle rib, and he stated that clearly up front.
i meant it was obviously a joke too even had the relevant gif, but humor sometimes doesn't translate well in words.

Anyways

I wonder if this was the "car" that Nvidia has alluded to in the past, remember that? Sony partnered with Honda for some reason, and around that time Nvidia said they might be doing a car. The Honda/Sony car is hideous and full of bad ideas, I can't imagine its a threat to anyone.

this thing:

 
I asked a specific question and Rogue started explaining to like an idiot. I am setting his expectations he knows how to respond to my question.
There is certainly a way to go about asking your question that doesn't imply you are a pompous ivory tower academic. If it is that important for others to have the context of your Ph.D, you can add it as a footnote to your profile, maybe include the topic of your dissertation to boot.

For most members on the forum, that answer was hopefully understandable enough given the likely lack of background in the topic. I am not treating you like an idiot but rather the general response for the general forum member. Having a Ph.D doesn't give excuse to engage in a d*ck swinging contest with random people who don't know your background that you haven't shared.

Given your background, I would expect you to have been exposed at least to some degree on the performance differences of models that specialize vs generalized. BERT models are an excellent example (a type of NLP model aka Natural Language Processing models for others on the forum). We can see from open source models that multi-language models have decent accuracy for most languages covered, but the overall performance is diminished as a result. In comparison, models trained for a specific language almost always score higher than their generalized counterparts. Counterpoints are models that group languages by family (ex. Romance languages). Those share enough similarities and overlap that performance penalties from the generalization are negligible or even non-existent. However, you take languages such as English, Arabic (any of the many, many dialects), and Chinese (any of the 12 dialects) with vastly different linguistical rules and alphabets (using the term loosely), the performance flounders drastically given the drastic differences.

There are other examples we can pull from such as Generative AI, specifically image generation. Those models often get released for generalized use cases that struggle in accuracy and consistency when pushed towards distinct styles via prompts. To counter this, people partially refrain those models on the target specialization (hyper-realism, anime, etc) and produce something called LoRA(s), Low Rank Adaptation. Again, the same pattern emerges. Increased performance in the specialization over the generalized solution for the targeted use case.

In essence, the truism jack of all trades and master of none is applicable to models. Pick one. Be generally good or okay at a number of things, or be exceptional at one thing at the cost of the other things.

In Lucid's case, there are a few areas to specialize. Signal processing vs image processing vs video processing would benefit greatly from different models given the unique characteristics of the electromagnetic spectrum at different frequencies, types of information available at said frequencies, and differences in the data as a whole. Another place for specialization is the decision making portion of Dream Drive Pro. Rather than attempt to cover every feasible driving condition with a singular model (highway, city, rural, mountain roads, flat plains of Idaho, etc.), models specialized in differing scenarios could be developed to increase performance in those situations.

Performance in this regard is accuracy, reliability, and reasonable execution to meet safety standards of autonomous driving. The bar is far higher such that deployment and development are dictated by the worst performance rather than the average (or median or best or amortized and so on) due to regulation.

If Lucid takes the approach of a generalized solution, they are attempting to brute force in many ways the worst performance upwards. Generalized meaning to clump all decision making into a singular model or all sensor types into a singular model. The requirements of such generalized solutions in practice often outstrip their specialized counterparts by orders of magnitude even in aggregate. Related to Nvidia, I suspect Nvidia's platform supplies the building blocks and possibly vast swaths of data to utilize to build the actual functionality rather than the other way around.
 
Level 4 in a mid-size. Okay. The $50,000 midsize? This invites many questions. Will Level 4 be a basic part of the car or an option? Will Level 4 have an annual subscription fee? Besides the NVIDIA chips that make this happen, it seems the vehicle will need more sensors. That equals more money. If it is a basic part of the car, it will certainly be a more expensive vehicle. If it is an option, will the vehicle come with all the sensors and chips in it but you have to pay more (an annual subscription) to unlock the feature? Then if it is a true option I would expect without it, there'd be no NVIDIA chip in it and a fewer sensors to save on costs, but that would also mean there would be no chance to turn it on later. As a true option, how much will it cost? $10,000? Then it begs the question how many people would be willing to pay for that option? Another recent news article mentioned that very few of the Tesla owners actually buy the Full Self Driving package. Overall, there was not a lot of information in this news release other then, "We're doing Level 4 with our mid-size." It's hard to get excited about this announcement at this point in time.
 
Level 4 in a mid-size. Okay. The $50,000 midsize? This invites many questions. Will Level 4 be a basic part of the car or an option? Will Level 4 have an annual subscription fee? Besides the NVIDIA chips that make this happen, it seems the vehicle will need more sensors. That equals more money. If it is a basic part of the car, it will certainly be a more expensive vehicle. If it is an option, will the vehicle come with all the sensors and chips in it but you have to pay more (an annual subscription) to unlock the feature? Then if it is a true option I would expect without it, there'd be no NVIDIA chip in it and a fewer sensors to save on costs, but that would also mean there would be no chance to turn it on later. As a true option, how much will it cost? $10,000? Then it begs the question how many people would be willing to pay for that option? Another recent news article mentioned that very few of the Tesla owners actually buy the Full Self Driving package. Overall, there was not a lot of information in this news release other then, "We're doing Level 4 with our mid-size." It's hard to get excited about this announcement at this point in time.
I imagine it will be modeled after the Model Y where all the cars have the hardware but subscriptions unlock various features.
 
There is certainly a way to go about asking your question that doesn't imply you are a pompous ivory tower academic. If it is that important for others to have the context of your Ph.D, you can add it as a footnote to your profile, maybe include the topic of your dissertation to boot.

For most members on the forum, that answer was hopefully understandable enough given the likely lack of background in the topic. I am not treating you like an idiot but rather the general response for the general forum member. Having a Ph.D doesn't give excuse to engage in a d*ck swinging contest with random people who don't know your background that you haven't shared.

Given your background, I would expect you to have been exposed at least to some degree on the performance differences of models that specialize vs generalized. BERT models are an excellent example (a type of NLP model aka Natural Language Processing models for others on the forum). We can see from open source models that multi-language models have decent accuracy for most languages covered, but the overall performance is diminished as a result. In comparison, models trained for a specific language almost always score higher than their generalized counterparts. Counterpoints are models that group languages by family (ex. Romance languages). Those share enough similarities and overlap that performance penalties from the generalization are negligible or even non-existent. However, you take languages such as English, Arabic (any of the many, many dialects), and Chinese (any of the 12 dialects) with vastly different linguistical rules and alphabets (using the term loosely), the performance flounders drastically given the drastic differences.

There are other examples we can pull from such as Generative AI, specifically image generation. Those models often get released for generalized use cases that struggle in accuracy and consistency when pushed towards distinct styles via prompts. To counter this, people partially refrain those models on the target specialization (hyper-realism, anime, etc) and produce something called LoRA(s), Low Rank Adaptation. Again, the same pattern emerges. Increased performance in the specialization over the generalized solution for the targeted use case.

In essence, the truism jack of all trades and master of none is applicable to models. Pick one. Be generally good or okay at a number of things, or be exceptional at one thing at the cost of the other things.

In Lucid's case, there are a few areas to specialize. Signal processing vs image processing vs video processing would benefit greatly from different models given the unique characteristics of the electromagnetic spectrum at different frequencies, types of information available at said frequencies, and differences in the data as a whole. Another place for specialization is the decision making portion of Dream Drive Pro. Rather than attempt to cover every feasible driving condition with a singular model (highway, city, rural, mountain roads, flat plains of Idaho, etc.), models specialized in differing scenarios could be developed to increase performance in those situations.

Performance in this regard is accuracy, reliability, and reasonable execution to meet safety standards of autonomous driving. The bar is far higher such that deployment and development are dictated by the worst performance rather than the average (or median or best or amortized and so on) due to regulation.

If Lucid takes the approach of a generalized solution, they are attempting to brute force in many ways the worst performance upwards. Generalized meaning to clump all decision making into a singular model or all sensor types into a singular model. The requirements of such generalized solutions in practice often outstrip their specialized counterparts by orders of magnitude even in aggregate. Related to Nvidia, I suspect Nvidia's platform supplies the building blocks and possibly vast swaths of data to utilize to build the actual functionality rather than the other way around.
I am curios about your thoughts on early sensor fusion where Camera, Radar and LiDAr sensor data is combined early and target recognition and perception is done on the combined data. This is the approach used by Lucid.

Older auto makers tend to use late fusion where target recognition and perception is done individually on the Camera, Radar and LiDAR.

My question is that based on your explanation that the model for each sensor may be better when specialized but is there missing information that is better recognized by the model that works with the combined data?
 
I imagine it will be modeled after the Model Y where all the cars have the hardware but subscriptions unlock various features.
Lucid has already shown how they will approach this. Basic Gravity comes with basic DreamDrive2 that gives you adaptive cruise and lane centering. If you want advanced lane change, hands off, other possible future point to point, Level 2++, you pay extra $6500 for DreamDrive2 Pro. Midsize with DDP will probably come with same features that Gravity with DDP has at that time and the promise (hope?) of eventual Level 4.
 
Also, Tesla can do the subscription method because all cars come with the needed sensor suite (mainly cameras) needed to run FSD. Lucid however is using a more intensive and expensive (LIdar, radars, etc.) sensor suite that would not make sense to put on all cars hoping people would pay subscription after sale.
 
Has anyone noticed the irony; the gallons of “ink” spilled and hours of opining on the software capabilities of Lucid Motors - a company that has produced at least two vehicles which are, by nearly every measure, outstanding driver’s cars.

DRIVE…not RIDE. I could not be happier with both of our Lucid Airs and look for any excuse to get behind the wheel.

I have to believe that most Lucid owners were initially seduced by the DRIVING experience of their Lucid.

Get out and drive while you can.

Level 5 autonomy is years away and, when it arrives, you will be faced with traffic streams of Risk-Avoiding Machines being vexed by analog Gen Luddites on two-wheelers in a game to confuse the RAMs.

Those of a certain age will remember a time when ‘going for a ride’ was a fun adventure. If you look, you’ll still find that opportunity but you’ll need a driver’s car; a Lucid.

Get out and DRIVE before you can’t.
 
I am curios about your thoughts on early sensor fusion where Camera, Radar and LiDAr sensor data is combined early and target recognition and perception is done on the combined data. This is the approach used by Lucid.

Older auto makers tend to use late fusion where target recognition and perception is done individually on the Camera, Radar and LiDAR.

My question is that based on your explanation that the model for each sensor may be better when specialized but is there missing information that is better recognized by the model that works with the combined data?
I have not had much chance to work with video and image analysis. Sensor analysis I have done work in.

The how is very important here. If they are just tossing all the data together without any prep work, I find that to be a difficult proposition for a model.

An example from work I've done. At a job, we had to process 100ks of documents across many, many languages. The reasons I won't get into here on a public forum. The end output was a network of the people, locations, events, etc. based on the communications and documents. Extracting the data from the many different formats required specialized tools (eg. libraries) by default.

The initial stab used Stanza (a type of NLP model from Stanford) and even the BERT model swapped to later had similar results. Model alone on the raw data produced an absolute mess from noise in the entity recognition (similar to target perception and recognition except in text). Results were essentially useless despite fantastic academic benchmarking for the models.

Make a long story short, the following had to be done from the generalized model approach:
- Language recognition step with a specific model specializing in language detection to tag the inputs.
- Applied single or multi-language models based on availability to the provided inputs.
- Applied standardizing of alphabet to remove accent marks and special combined characters to standard English characters.
- Special cleaning of known noise such as commas, periods, etc. in places known to be removable
- Applied deduplication (miss-spellings, capitalized vs not capitalized, missing or extra punctuation marks, etc. Similar to recognizing that an object tagged as two separate things such as truck and trailer are really one object).
- Reran the last three steps a second time because it improved accuracy significantly.
- Finally performed the network analysis to produce a final result.

The usage of these specialization steps and tools reduced initial results of hundreds of thousands of entities to low hundreds and millions of connections to thousands. Based on filtering, the results would drop down to only a few dozen. End result was a far superior product than what a single model could do on its own.

If that is similar to the approach Lucid is taking, I imagine they will have tremendous success. Otherwise, they are bound to get the first result aka a subpar result made better possibly through brute forcing with a larger and larger model though bound to hit rapidly diminished returns.
 
An example from work I've done. At a job, we had to process 100ks of documents across many, many languages. The reasons I won't get into here on a public forum. The end output was a network of the people, locations, events, etc. based on the communications and documents. Extracting the data from the many different formats required specialized tools (eg. libraries) by default.

The initial stab used Stanza (a type of NLP model from Stanford) and even the BERT model swapped to later had similar results. Model alone on the raw data produced an absolute mess from noise in the entity recognition (similar to target perception and recognition except in text). Results were essentially useless despite fantastic
I'm a data scientist and I can feel the pain and frustration it took to finally reach the output of this pipeline.

And the amount of profanity when the pipeline outputs something it shouldn't have.
 
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