Lucid Charger (failures and design oddities)

[kristiandg]

Originally posted here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2998294343813502/permalink/3087674664875469/?mibextid=W9rl1R

All, just a heads up regarding the Lucid home charger. Although the home we are building will have no need for reverse power (letting the car power the house during outages), the place we’re renting, I thought might benefit from such a feature. The charger I really wanted to get, I held off on figuring the Lucid one would be as excellent as the car and, again, that eventual reverse power thing…

I had it installed around Feburary, and in the first couple of weeks, it failed. It still powered on but it couldn’t handshake with the car at all. Lucid believed the unit was defective so they shipped me a replacement. I spent around $500 to have it swapped (at the time, I then also had a 50a dryer plug installed off the same circuit so I would never be screwed again by not having some method to charge, hence the higher-than-normal labor to swap).

A couple weeks ago I discovered the unit was no longer able to connect to WiFi (I have IT-level structured WiFi, so it’s not like a range issue or a crappy router, as the closest access point is 8 linear feet from the charging station). Cycling the charger’s power (breaker) is supposed to broadcast the default WiFi for a short period of time, but it wasn’t. My tests determined the WiFi radio in the unit had died. Contacting Lucid, they again wanted to send me a replacement. However, I was no longer receptive to the pain in the ass of replacing the entire thing, or the excess costs associated with such a swap.

See, Lucid designed the charging station with circuitry in both its shell (where the high voltage connects), as well as its front face. In other words, when you swap it, you usually need to swap both pieces, unless you do further testing and might be able to get away with just swapping the front face (this would be problem-dependent though) - I also don’t know if they’re serialized (expect to see both of their paired parts). In any case, from an engineering perspective, it’s poor design practice to spread your “brains” across two parts, one of which code dictates should be swapped by a specialist…

I told Lucid I would not be swapping any longer and was sending this one back for a full refund. Initially they pushed back (with a somewhat canned response stating that a future update may fix the issue but since it still is able to charge they would be closing the ticket). I responded (quite douchey, actually) pointing out that their units were 0-for-2 in a 6 month timeframe, as well as the absurdity of what they were saying (that a unit no longer able to connect to the internet would be fixed with a future software update….. that it can’t get….. ever)…. I further demanded escalation and a phone call.

Within an hour I did get a call from someone who saw the absurdity of what was said and understood why I wanted to return it at this point. I’m supposed to get a call next week to coordinate that, but they also mentioned something else I hadn’t been told previously: that Lucid will reimburse your electrician charges for a swap if they send a replacement (obviously not for the initial install, which I totally understand, and presumably only while it’s in warranty). As great as that is, I pointed out the need to change the design so that all the circuitry exists solely in the front face, so that replacements don’t require an electrician in the future. I even sent them a link to the unit I installed today, which is built specifically for easy replacement by putting all the “brains” in a snap-on front face, just for their reference (as, a one-time design change is far more economical than electrician reimbursements).

Now, for those interested, this is the unit I got. It’s a few hundred dollars cheaper. It can’t do reverse power, and it can’t do more than about 70-amp feed, but I’d rather it work and be well designed than charge faster (overnight is still overnight). I wish it were black, and I’m sure in a couple years it will be), but the coolest thing about it is, it’s tied into the rest of my network infrastructure, can be locked with user-specific access, and most importantly, has a big ass touchscreen (that you can load videos on if you like, sort of like a screensaver - think holiday decorations). Yes, I like the toys. And this is, by far, the sexiest and most well-designed charger I’ve found.

Some of you may be familiar with Ubiquiti (ex Apple guy started a networking company, with the similar design and deployment “ease” concepts, then added on equally well thought out cameras, door access, and now charging stations - their phone system is terrible though - but all of this runs on a single box in your basement and is centrally controlled - they haven’t merged everything yet, but hopefully they will soon, as it would be nice for this unit’s camera to appear in the camera application as another camera to view). In general, almost everything they make is well-designed, though their software tends to be lacking some blatantly obvious features. For us, one “firewall” unit runs the network, the cameras/doorbell, and now this charging station as a single central controller. Best of all, there are metrics visible to show all the charging activity

If you have questions, feel free to hit me up. But, in general, the purpose of this post was to:
•Advise others of the current reliability issues I’ve experienced with the Lucid charging station…
•Raise awareness to some of the shortsighted design flaws of that charging station…
•Advise folks needing to swap their charging station with a Lucid-provided replacement, that apparently Lucid will reimburse you (if you already have, you’re supposed to be able to provide the bill back to them - there are limits, but I believe it’s reviewed case by case) - I had not been told this the first time, so I never knew until now…
•Advise folks of the better designed unit I had installed in case others want to for themselves…
•Maybe, just maybe, pressure Lucid to think about such design considerations, which would reduce unnecessary overhead, when there are some ongoing financial challenges for them to deal with (stop the bleed where you can)…

Have a great holiday weekend, everyone…

 

[Adnillien]

That is a nice looking unit. How much was it?

 

[kristiandg]

So, when I was first weighing this, it was still in their "early access" site for $799. Now it's up to $999, which will be it's regular pricepoint I believe. You do still need one of their "controller" routers to run it, which are anywhere from 100-500 depending on how many different centralized apps you want running to control things (for example, if you use their cameras/doorbells, then you would run the Protect app - this requires the Connect app. If you also want door access control, that's the Access app). How many of those different elements need to run at one time on the central box, drives which controller box you get (I'm over-simplifying, but the basics are, if you only care about this, then you can just get a simple controller that doesn't do anything else but run "Connect" and then you're done.

As you can see in the shot below, we have 3 applications running (Network, Protect, and now Connect), so I had to upgrade from the lower end controller to a mid-range one.

These are the controllers:

Ubiquiti - Rethinking IT

Powerfully simple networking technology for organizations.

ui.com

We had a Dream Router (2 applications max - Network is always one running)

Upgraded to the Dream Machine Pro, which can handle more than 2 applications running.

Here's the charging station (you may need to enable Early Access in your profile before it will let you see it):

Connect EV Station - Ubiquiti Store

Smart electric vehicle charging station designed for UniFi Connect.

store.ui.com

Here's a little teaser video on it:

It can be an open charger (anyone access it), or it can be time restricted, unlocked with a QR code, with NFC, etc, and eventually you'll even be able to create rules like max output during certain time windows (peak vs off-peak), and even limits per user on what they can take.

So, if you're a geek, it's a smorgasbord of cool stuff. Another interesting observation. The Lucid charger took about 20-30 seconds to handshake and begin charging - this takes about 3-6 sec. No idea what "conversation" is going on there, but yeah, it's faster in that sense.

Don't get me wrong, the lower amperage does add an hour or two - but, again, if you're doing it overnight, who cares.

 

[Worldwide Beagle]

Love Ubiquity / Unifi networking. You do not need a Cisco degree. During Covid, I set up full network system with fiber, managed switches, etc. Law office in the home so it had to hardwired/ethernet. Just upgraded the APs to Wi-Fi 6. Had no idea they did this device. Thanks for sharing.

 

[DeaneG]

Very cool charging station! It design intent is very different from Lucid's Home solution, whose primary distinguishing attributes are high power capability and bidirectional charging. Ubiquiti's product is targeting lower-speed managed L2 workspace charging. Both have their place.

Agree with your comments, except for mounting all the Lucid Charger's circuitry on its front face - there are relatively large and heavy power-handling components in the rear case which can't be moved to the front face. If one were to do that, then the power cable and charging cable would also have to terminate on the front face, and swapping would still include an electrician.

 

[kristiandg]

Oh dude.... With the direction they're going (specifically with UID), they're really trying to make integrated single-app experiences across several product verticals. This is starting to delve a little outside of the intent of this thread (and definitely this forum), but if you really want to get worked up, go check their "new integrations" and you'll start to see what they're working towards:

Ubiquiti Store

ReThinking IT

store.ui.com

Basically, the "Connect" line is starting to be a section for other business intelligence stuff.. So, with the UID I mentioned earlier, your same badge (or app) that opens your doors in your office (in the case of the home we're building, all those doors, gates, and garages.), is the same card/app that authorizes charging on the EV chargers, identifies you on your cameras, knows when you're in your office for lighting/temp occupancy, etc. That same UID account will let you auto-join a dedicated WiFi (for secure networking). "Connect" also has started to support large displays for things like directories, advertising content, etc.

So, yes, they want to be the simple-to-use, all-in-one infrastructure "go to". And, for the most part, they're nailing it.

So, back to the EV charger (sorry, folks for the "something shiny" moment)... It's got minimal features currently, but it's got a tone more capabilities than the current Lucid charger (in that I can actually view my charging metrics, can lock the station to only serve authroized users, and is designed for ease of replacement if there is a failure), but it's overall design differences also allow it to have future capabilities that are really cool, and it's less expensive than Lucid's.

Hope this helped folks.

Thanks - and Happy 4th.....

 

[DeaneG]

And it's probably the coolest-looking charging station available to home users.

 

[kristiandg]

Very cool charging station! It design intent is very different from Lucid's Home solution, whose primary distinguishing attributes are high power capability and bidirectional charging. Ubiquiti's product is targeting lower-speed managed L2 workspace charging. Both have their place.

Agree with your comments, except for mounting all the Lucid Charger's circuitry on its front face - there are relatively large and heavy power-handling components in the rear case which can't be moved to the front face. If one were to do that, then the power cable and charging cable would also have to terminate on the front face, and swapping would still include an electrician.

Let me be clear in my comments - from what I saw on the Lucid charger, the power was in it's body, yes - but so was the output cable. Which means, essentially, all that was needed in the shell was the contactor, and possibly the ring that monitors power flow (though, that, too, could have been attached to the front face with an easy to disconnect cable). The 10-pin (ish) umbilical that connected the front face to the shell, I don't see why those low voltage "smart" components couldn't be in the face - and all you send to the body is the contactor trigger.

Let me put it another way - Ubiquiti found a way to do it, and although the amerage is 20 amps less than what the Lucid charger can do, that would have just resulted in thicker/wider contacts. Note in the pic below, power comes in via (up to) 6 gauge leads that wire into those 3 contacts. Those line up with the 3 contacts on the face, and the car's charging cable comes out of the bottom of the face as well. So, literally, every bit of "smart" circuitry is in that front face, and is meant for easy swap. In the pic, they show it being plugged in to a 50a "dryer" outlet below it, but there's a seal in the back for hard-wiring as well (which you would move that back rubber seal to the bottom hole). In a future design, if they decided to support more amperage, you could probably just increase the contact size on those pins sticking out the back of the front face, but it's still incredibly intelligent IMO. I do wish it could handle bi-directional, and perhaps their next version will (again, just contactors really), but the modular design and component separation should be able to be achieved with such added features. It also, technically was meant for businesses, not homes (and businesses wouldn't need bi-directional). I think Lucid never expected theirs to have such failures, whereas Ubiquiti (having foundations in networking) understood failures were a necessary evil and designed to ease that burden as best as possible.

 

[DeaneG]

Interesting - clever design!

 

[kristiandg]

Here's some better pics of the hardwired install (and all the stuff it comes with if you're doing "plug-in" install)...

Note, the handle has a place to latch (and it can be on either side, depending on where you want it), and that it has pushbutton release to get in it (locked by a hex screw for obvious reasons).

 

[kristiandg]

Also, just a recommendation for folks.... If you're paying to have ANY brand charger installed, have them also install a NEMA 14-50 (dryer) outlet near the charger. In my case, the charging unit was outside, but the plug-in outlet was inside the garage (since it has no inherent security like the charging station does).

Why do this? Well, the first time your charger dies and you're screwed for a week or two (as I was), you'll wish you had an alternate way to charge (using the Lucid's trunk cable). By spending the extra $50-100 bucks to have that outlet installed, you'll have a fallback method. In my case, it's fed off the same breaker so you shouldn't use both at once (for that, you'd either want to install a junction box in the garage that separately breaker-protects them and is fed by a thicker feed to support both, or run a second feed from your breaker panel to this outlet - either way, you may want that flexibility to account for a fallback method, since these chargers have "smarts" in them)

 

[Tâm]

Also, just a recommendation for folks.... If you're paying to have ANY brand charger installed, have them also install a NEMA 14-50 (dryer) outlet near the charger. In my case, the charging unit was outside, but the plug-in outlet was inside the garage (since it has no inherent security like the charging station does).

Why do this? Well, the first time your charger dies and you're screwed for a week or two (as I was), you'll wish you had an alternate way to charge (using the Lucid's trunk cable). By spending the extra $50-100 bucks to have that outlet installed, you'll have a fallback method. In my case, it's fed off the same breaker so you shouldn't use both at once (for that, you'd either want to install a junction box in the garage that separately breaker-protects them and is fed by a thicker feed to support both, or run a second feed from your breaker panel to this outlet - either way, you may want that flexibility to account for a fallback method, since these chargers have "smarts" in them)

Agreed. A fallback system is an excellent prudent practice.

 

[Tginther]

Just wanted to comment my experiences on this thread. First, I also use Ubiquity and have a relatively extensive home network setup including 3 access points with one being in the garage as well as 10GbE running between my 2 media closets and my home office. The Garage Access Point is mounted in the ceiling directly above the Lucid Connected Home Charging Station (LCHCS).

My LCHCS is direct-wired into my panel with a 100 amp breaker, therefore maximizing the 80 amp charging current. I have written other posts about the issues trying to get the LCHCS installed, starting with the original unit I purchased - when it was installed the logo was solid Orange. The electrician had contacted Lucid and they immediately shipped out a replacement unit. When that unit did the same thing, they shipping another unit, which again did the same thing. I believe it was the 4th unit shipped (Lucid verified the serial # was in the range of known good units - why they didn't check this earlier I have no idea). Finally, the 4th unit gave me the white Lucid logo glowing solid. As mentioned above, Lucid paid for all the "reinstalls". Luckily, even with the defective units, they were still able to charge my Lucid, so even though I had 4 charger installs spanning a month or two, it didn't effect my ability to charge my car. When running diagnostics on the defective units, they reported some error code which Lucid never did tell the electrician what it meant. The charger was first installed 12/21/2022 and the 4th and final charger was installed 3/13/2023, so it was a long ordeal, but as I said, I was able to use the charger the entire time so I was willing to out up with these inconveniences of having the electrician and his team come out time and again.

Besides the Unify Access Point providing WiFi, I also have the LCHCS direct-connected with Ethernet running right into my Unify 48-Port PoE switch. From the time the 4th unit was installed to now, there have been no issues with the LCHCS networking or otherwise. Starting with the 1st defective unit, I connected it via Ethernet and also connected it to my WiFi, and I can access the LCHC using either IP address (I have my Unify switch assign fixed IP addresses to both). I can log in simultaneously through each IP address, which is interesting. I haven't experienced any issues with the LCHCS's WiFi capabilities as reported here, which I'm grateful for!

I had originally wanted to get the Unify EV Station, but because of Lucid's "coming soon" bi-directional charging capability, I decided to go with Lucid. I am all Solar and have 3 Tesla PowerWalls for backup. Because the 3 PowerWalls will only give me maybe a day of backup power, during an extended grid outage and before the hurricane passes, having the Lucid provide additional backup power is very desirable to me.

My major issue with this charger is with Lucid's promises - this was installed 10 months ago at this point and my feeling is Lucid doesn't seem to be any closer to offering bi-directional than they were 10 months ago - their priorities are on fixing issues and coming out with a new EV.

In late spring, we purchased a Hyundai Ionic 6 for my wife, and I come to find out Hyundai already offers bi-directional using the Ionic 6 and their wall charger. It is very disappointing and frustrating waiting for all the things Lucid has promised "in the future"...

 

[hydbob]

Just wanted to comment my experiences on this thread. First, I also use Ubiquity and have a relatively extensive home network setup including 3 access points with one being in the garage as well as 10GbE running between my 2 media closets and my home office. The Garage Access Point is mounted in the ceiling directly above the Lucid Connected Home Charging Station (LCHCS).

My LCHCS is direct-wired into my panel with a 100 amp breaker, therefore maximizing the 80 amp charging current. I have written other posts about the issues trying to get the LCHCS installed, starting with the original unit I purchased - when it was installed the logo was solid Orange. The electrician had contacted Lucid and they immediately shipped out a replacement unit. When that unit did the same thing, they shipping another unit, which again did the same thing. I believe it was the 4th unit shipped (Lucid verified the serial # was in the range of known good units - why they didn't check this earlier I have no idea). Finally, the 4th unit gave me the white Lucid logo glowing solid. As mentioned above, Lucid paid for all the "reinstalls". Luckily, even with the defective units, they were still able to charge my Lucid, so even though I had 4 charger installs spanning a month or two, it didn't effect my ability to charge my car. When running diagnostics on the defective units, they reported some error code which Lucid never did tell the electrician what it meant. The charger was first installed 12/21/2022 and the 4th and final charger was installed 3/13/2023, so it was a long ordeal, but as I said, I was able to use the charger the entire time so I was willing to out up with these inconveniences of having the electrician and his team come out time and again.

Besides the Unify Access Point providing WiFi, I also have the LCHCS direct-connected with Ethernet running right into my Unify 48-Port PoE switch. From the time the 4th unit was installed to now, there have been no issues with the LCHCS networking or otherwise. Starting with the 1st defective unit, I connected it via Ethernet and also connected it to my WiFi, and I can access the LCHC using either IP address (I have my Unify switch assign fixed IP addresses to both). I can log in simultaneously through each IP address, which is interesting. I haven't experienced any issues with the LCHCS's WiFi capabilities as reported here, which I'm grateful for!

I had originally wanted to get the Unify EV Station, but because of Lucid's "coming soon" bi-directional charging capability, I decided to go with Lucid. I am all Solar and have 3 Tesla PowerWalls for backup. Because the 3 PowerWalls will only give me maybe a day of backup power, during an extended grid outage and before the hurricane passes, having the Lucid provide additional backup power is very desirable to me.

My major issue with this charger is with Lucid's promises - this was installed 10 months ago at this point and my feeling is Lucid doesn't seem to be any closer to offering bi-directional than they were 10 months ago - their priorities are on fixing issues and coming out with a new EV.

In late spring, we purchased a Hyundai Ionic 6 for my wife, and I come to find out Hyundai already offers bi-directional using the Ionic 6 and their wall charger. It is very disappointing and frustrating waiting for all the things Lucid has promised "in the future"...

That's surprising to hear. Does the Ioniq 6 actually to V2H or is it just V2L?

 

[Tginther]

V2L https://electrek.co/2022/12/16/hyundai-ioniq-5-puts-v2l-to-the-ultimate-test-on-norway-farm/ starting with the Ionic 5

 

[Negan1000]

V2L https://electrek.co/2022/12/16/hyundai-ioniq-5-puts-v2l-to-the-ultimate-test-on-norway-farm/ starting with the Ionic 5

Demo bidirectional charging.

Wallbox demonstrates next-gen bidirectional charging for first time using Kia EV9 [Video]

Weeks after announcing a collaboration with Kia America to bring bidirectional charging capabilities to EV9 drivers, Wallbox has demonstrated the...

electrek.co

 

[DeaneG]

I'm probably missing something, but I can't figure out how Lucid's Home Charging System could possibly work for V2H. The LHCS uses the J1772 connector rather than CCS. J1772 has two pins for AC (L1, N). Assuming the Air's Wunderbox would convert the battery's 900VDC to 240VAC would require three power pins from car to LHCS rather than two (L1, L2, N) and also requires a neutral connection from LHCS to the home. The LHCS does not have a neutral connection to the home.

Wallbox's V2H solution, as well as Ford's, uses the DC pins on a CCS connector on the home charger to feed battery DC to an external inverter. This external inverter could have conventional 240VAC L1 L2 N connections to the home and thus be able to power the entire home with a typical mains transfer switch.

 

[Tginther]

Let’s hope they created a working prototype before announcing this system would support the capability…

 

[Adnillien]

Assuming the Air's Wunderbox would convert the battery's 900VDC to 240VAC would require three power pins from car to LHCS rather than two (L1, L2, N) and also requires a neutral connection from LHCS to the home. The LHCS does not have a neutral connection to the home.

I have heard that the wunderbox will do the DC to AC conversion but I am with you on thinking it will need a neutral wire for V2H.