Charge only with EA Fast Charger

[Oat]

I mean WallBox EVSE, not ChargeBox.

Thank! Let me look into this!

 

[LucidDropkick]

For the longest time, I was charging exclusively on EA (simply because I'm an apartment dweller and home charging wasn't an option or me). I had this debate too with myself. I now sprinkle in a bit of L2 charging at work (work perk = Chargepoint for free), but it's still almost 90% EA.

There's no denying that DCFC all the time is objectively harder on the battery. But there's also plenty of evidence to suggest that this may not manifest itself as hugely depleted range over time.

A few things you can do to help is to make sure you never charge past 80%, and even feel comfortable for city driving charging to less than that (lately, I'm totally fine with topping off to 60% when I know I'm not going anywhere for a while).

I don't think too hard about it now. If my car needs the juice, I charge. If I want to go for a drive, I go for a drive. We can all spend a lot of time thinking about how to keep our new cars absolutely new in every way for as long as possible, or we can just use them. That's not to criticize anyone who cares about their battery longevity, of course! Just different camps of people.

I personally don't think it's worth worrying about.

 

[HJInc]

From what I'm seeing, the batteries do not degrade that much, especially if you're not keeping the car past 100k. Fast charge it to 80%, then slow charge it to 100% if you need to. That's why the Air is a game changer, at 80% it's better than Tesla at 100%. If I go through with an Air for my work vehicle, I'll be living at EA charging stations.

 

[Bill55]

For the longest time, I was charging exclusively on EA (simply because I'm an apartment dweller and home charging wasn't an option or me). I had this debate too with myself. I now sprinkle in a bit of L2 charging at work (work perk = Chargepoint for free), but it's still almost 90% EA.

There's no denying that DCFC all the time is objectively harder on the battery. But there's also plenty of evidence to suggest that this may not manifest itself as hugely depleted range over time.

A few things you can do to help is to make sure you never charge past 80%, and even feel comfortable for city driving charging to less than that (lately, I'm totally fine with topping off to 60% when I know I'm not going anywhere for a while).

I don't think too hard about it now. If my car needs the juice, I charge. If I want to go for a drive, I go for a drive. We can all spend a lot of time thinking about how to keep our new cars absolutely new in every way for as long as possible, or we can just use them. That's not to criticize anyone who cares about their battery longevity, of course! Just different camps of people.

I personally don't think it's worth worrying about.

Agree. Use the car and enjoy it. I only charge to 100% for road trips where I want the extra flexibility. I usually only go to 80-85 at EA on the road if I’m comfortable with my options along my route. That is more due to the reduced kW and time to go to 100 than worrying about the battery.

 

[bhramabull]

Fast charging will degrade the battery faster than level 2 charging. That said, the battery degradation may not be that great to be a worry. If you are planning to install a level 2 charger at home, you should do it now. The time spent waiting to charge at EA is not worth the few dollars of electricity at home. Home charging takes zero time and put zero additional miles on your car. The convenience of home charging is worth the small cost. During the winter in AZ, we have super off-peak from 10:00 AM to 3:00 PM of 4 cents per kWhr. I can completely recharge my battery for $5.

I had the same question about our new super off-peak timings with APS - does it take you $5 to go from less than 10% - 100%??

 

[Adnillien]

I had the same question about our new super off-peak timings with APS - does it take you $5 to go from less than 10% - 100%??

I have not plugged in below 45% but I do use that super off-peak time slot this time of year. According to my Chragepoint, I have spent $9 for 175 kWhr this month. Some of that was on weekends so would have been normal off-peak instead of super off-peak.

 

[Sandvinsd]

I had the same question about our new super off-peak timings with APS - does it take you $5 to go from less than 10% - 100%??

In San Diego, our super off-peak is about 10 cents per kW. To charge the GT from about 10 to 90% it would take about 100 kW or cost $10 at the super-off peak rates At home.

 

[DeaneG]

Here is an article in German mentioning 17% additional battery degradation from repeated, routine DC fast charging. But it's older data, not measured on a current EV/battery.

https://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/kosten/akku-verliert-saft-experten-enthuellen-batterie-alterung-durchs-schnellladen-bei-elektroautos_id_191623196.html

 

[Volund]

Here is an article in German mentioning 17% additional battery degradation from repeated, routine DC fast charging. But it's older data, not measured on a current EV/battery.

https://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/kosten/akku-verliert-saft-experten-enthuellen-batterie-alterung-durchs-schnellladen-bei-elektroautos_id_191623196.html

Even when I was on my road trip, I charged to 80% only

 

[hmp10]

Here is an article in German mentioning 17% additional battery degradation from repeated, routine DC fast charging. But it's older data, not measured on a current EV/battery.

https://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/kosten/akku-verliert-saft-experten-enthuellen-batterie-alterung-durchs-schnellladen-bei-elektroautos_id_191623196.html

This article is a bit odd. It was published two days ago but was based on a 2014 study of a Mitsubishi built in 2011 -- which was the Stone Age in terms of EV development. And Mitsubishi at the time challenged the conclusions of the report, saying their cars in real-world use were encountering nothing like the capacity loss the study claimed.

I think certain things in the article are incontestable: charging EV batteries to 100% and letting them sit at full charge is a bad idea (dendrite formation); letting their charge dip too low too often is a bad idea; and DC fast charging puts more stress on the cells than Level 2 charging.

However, some of these effects are significantly limited by sophisticated battery management systems which keep the batteries near optimal temperatures for various charge conditions and which have now become ubiquitous in EVs. (This test was done in an era when the Nissan Leaf did not even have a temperature management system for its pack.) When cars with such sophisticated battery management systems showed up on the scene -- including the original 2012 Tesla Model S -- those cars subsequently demonstrated better-than-predicted battery life in real-use conditions, including even frequent fast charging.

Also, while there have been no major battery breakthroughs in the past dozen years, there has been steady incremental improvement in cell chemistries. Although Lucid remains tight-lipped about the details, they have claimed that the Samsung batteries in the 118-kWh pack have proprietary properties that make them more tolerant of DC fast charging and that their tolerance of full charging has allowed them to employ no charging buffer at the top end. (This latter point might even be the reason for the 6-kWh difference between the Samsung and the LG Chem packs in the Lucid, both of which have the same number and form factor of cells.)

End of the day, to protect your Lucid battery pack (and pretty much any other brand):

1. If you have Level 2 home charging available, use it routinely even if you have "free" Electrify America charging right down the street.

2. Keep the car plugged in to Level 2 charging any time it is not being driven so that the temperature management system will draw line power instead of battery power to operate.

3. Set the daily charge limit no higher than 80% and don't wait for the battery to get low to plug back in.

4. Don't worry about deviating a bit from the above point in order to capture off peak electricity rates as long as you don't routinely charge above 80%.

5. When on a trip or need otherwise dictates, charge where you need to -- even DC fast chargers -- and use as much of the top-to-bottom battery range as you must without fretting about it. You will stress the pack a bit more than when adhering to the first 4 recommendations, but it will not be significant enough for you ever to notice.

 

[Negan1000]

I have not plugged in below 45% but I do use that super off-peak time slot this time of year. According to my Chragepoint, I have spent $9 for 175 kWhr this month. Some of that was on weekends so would have been normal off-peak instead of super off-peak.

5 cents per kWhr great price!

 

[pjdcorp]

This article is a bit odd. It was published two days ago but was based on a 2014 study of a Mitsubishi built in 2011 -- which was the Stone Age in terms of EV development. And Mitsubishi at the time challenged the conclusions of the report, saying their cars in real-world use were encountering nothing like the capacity loss the study claimed.

I think certain things in the article are incontestable: charging EV batteries to 100% and letting them sit at full charge is a bad idea (dendrite formation); letting their charge dip too low too often is a bad idea; and DC fast charging puts more stress on the cells than Level 2 charging.

However, some of these effects are significantly limited by sophisticated battery management systems which keep the batteries near optimal temperatures for various charge conditions and which have now become ubiquitous in EVs. (This test was done in an era when the Nissan Leaf did not even have a temperature management system for its pack.) When cars with such sophisticated battery management systems showed up on the scene -- including the original 2012 Tesla Model S -- those cars subsequently demonstrated better-than-predicted battery life in real-use conditions, including even frequent fast charging.

Also, while there have been no major battery breakthroughs in the past dozen years, there has been steady incremental improvement in cell chemistries. Although Lucid remains tight-lipped about the details, they have claimed that the Samsung batteries in the 118-kWh pack have proprietary properties that make them more tolerant of DC fast charging and that their tolerance of full charging has allowed them to employ no charging buffer at the top end. (This latter point might even be the reason for the 6-kWh difference between the Samsung and the LG Chem packs in the Lucid, both of which have the same number and form factor of cells.)

End of the day, to protect your Lucid battery pack (and pretty much any other brand):

1. If you have Level 2 home charging available, use it routinely even if you have "free" Electrify America charging right down the street.

2. Keep the car plugged in to Level 2 charging any time it is not being driven so that the temperature management system will draw line power instead of battery power to operate.

3. Set the daily charge limit no higher than 80% and don't wait for the battery to get low to plug back in.

4. Don't worry about deviating a bit from the above point in order to capture off peak electricity rates as long as you don't routinely charge above 80%.

5. When on a trip or need otherwise dictates, charge where you need to -- even DC fast chargers -- and use as much of the top-to-bottom battery range as you must without fretting about it. You will stress the pack a bit more than when adhering to the first 4 recommendations, but it will not be significant enough for you ever to notice.

Thank you for this analysis.

 

[Volund]

This article is a bit odd. It was published two days ago but was based on a 2014 study of a Mitsubishi built in 2011 -- which was the Stone Age in terms of EV development. And Mitsubishi at the time challenged the conclusions of the report, saying their cars in real-world use were encountering nothing like the capacity loss the study claimed.

I think certain things in the article are incontestable: charging EV batteries to 100% and letting them sit at full charge is a bad idea (dendrite formation); letting their charge dip too low too often is a bad idea; and DC fast charging puts more stress on the cells than Level 2 charging.

However, some of these effects are significantly limited by sophisticated battery management systems which keep the batteries near optimal temperatures for various charge conditions and which have now become ubiquitous in EVs. (This test was done in an era when the Nissan Leaf did not even have a temperature management system for its pack.) When cars with such sophisticated battery management systems showed up on the scene -- including the original 2012 Tesla Model S -- those cars subsequently demonstrated better-than-predicted battery life in real-use conditions, including even frequent fast charging.

Also, while there have been no major battery breakthroughs in the past dozen years, there has been steady incremental improvement in cell chemistries. Although Lucid remains tight-lipped about the details, they have claimed that the Samsung batteries in the 118-kWh pack have proprietary properties that make them more tolerant of DC fast charging and that their tolerance of full charging has allowed them to employ no charging buffer at the top end. (This latter point might even be the reason for the 6-kWh difference between the Samsung and the LG Chem packs in the Lucid, both of which have the same number and form factor of cells.)

End of the day, to protect your Lucid battery pack (and pretty much any other brand):

1. If you have Level 2 home charging available, use it routinely even if you have "free" Electrify America charging right down the street.

2. Keep the car plugged in to Level 2 charging any time it is not being driven so that the temperature management system will draw line power instead of battery power to operate.

3. Set the daily charge limit no higher than 80% and don't wait for the battery to get low to plug back in.

4. Don't worry about deviating a bit from the above point in order to capture off peak electricity rates as long as you don't routinely charge above 80%.

5. When on a trip or need otherwise dictates, charge where you need to -- even DC fast chargers -- and use as much of the top-to-bottom battery range as you must without fretting about it. You will stress the pack a bit more than when adhering to the first 4 recommendations, but it will not be significant enough for you ever to notice.

Can you expand on #5?
The problem with charging when you need to is that the nearby chargers aren't reliable a lot of time. So I look to charge around 30-40 percent minimum

 

[HariK]

In CA, unless we have solar power, the rates to charge at home are 40+ cents per kWh. So, since we paid for the so called "free" charging, we have been using it but for local driving, I am charging between 15% and 60% at DCFC for now. I am one of those willing to accept if Lucid offers a buy out and use my solar power to charge at home and pay max about 26 cents per kWh for any use beyond my solar capacity. BTW 15% to 60% takes about 20min for me and I just combine it for my trip to Walmart for the dog food.

 

[hmp10]

Can you expand on #5?
The problem with charging when you need to is that the nearby chargers aren't reliable a lot of time. So I look to charge around 30-40 percent minimum

Point #5 was really just this:

If you can't charge according to the first four points for any reason (availability, excessive peak hour costs, time constraints) just charge when and how you can. It might not be optimal for battery protection, but it probably won't significantly affect the life of the battery pack unless done to excess. There is a lot of protection baked into modern battery management systems. Probably the worst thing you can do is to charge to 100% repeatedly and then let the car sit at full charge for prolonged periods.