Air + DreamDrive Pro: Were We Left Behind?

[fadooly]

a wise move from Lucid is to offer lifetime DDPro for Midsize to OG Air owners who purchased DDPro just like FSD transfer from Tesla or give a special discount

based on what I have seeen, I am interested in cosmos but I wont reserve or buy 1 unless I am getting a good deal

I forget to mention that we still do not even have hands free in middle east

 

[Stevie Bee]

I can't quite parse this and don't want to read the entire thread from the beginning. Is the hive mad because Lucid isn't promising L3 for the Air, or are we simply dissatisfied with the current state of DDP? I can never figure out who I'm supposed to be mad at.

Personally, I don't need 'eyes off' or 'mind off', but it would be great to use hands free driving around town rather than just on the highway and that was my expectation.

 

[jedwin]

While speaking only for myself, I would be satisfied if Lucid would push eyes-on hands-free as far as they reasonably could, throw in the towel on anything eyes-off, and issue some reasonable compensation for the diminished capabilities

This. Mainly the first part. Actually just pushing hands-on Highway Assist (active lane keeping) as far as possible on secondary roads would make me happy I’d be far less comfortable with hands off on secondary roads anyway; way more disruptions that could be caused by stupid drivers—especially in the oncoming lane—and animals and such.

There’s a huge continuum between highway driving and city driving; many regions have lots of wide open rural roads that I have to imagine the Air could easily handle as is. Maybe it would need to be limited to roads with a clear right side white stripe, or maybe a clear center line would be enough?

I swear that about a year ago, my AT surprised me by offering the highway assist mode while I was on a non-highway major US route, one of those with a speed limit of 50 to 65 mph and well striped on both sides of the lane (maybe US202 in Maine/NewHampshire?). I was amazed when I came into a town and it slowed down for a traffic light and picked right up and took off without me when it turned green (there were cars in front of me; in other words, it was acting the same as it would in stop and go traffic on a highway… It was not seeing and responding to the traffic light, but to the other cars.)

I’m not sure if that was just a strange stray secondary route that was part of the mapped “go zone,” or some other kind of anomaly, but I don’t think it’s happened again off of the highway. (I kind of wonder if they were experimenting with that but pulled back?) Still, that does seem within reach of the current hardware and software, which is responding to lines on the road and other vehicles . (I guess that stoplight and stop signs without cars ahead would be a stumbling block; but by requiring hands-on, that would presume we’re paying good attention. Or it could click back down from highway assist to adaptive cruise when it sees a traffic light, like it does with construction cones?)

If they were able to extend our current cars to this, dropping down to adaptive cruise once a certain density of traffic or side roads were encountered as we approach towns and cities, I’d be a very happy camper.

I came in later (early 2025 model), so did not pay as a big premium for ADAS as earlier adopters, but I certainly did not expect hands off city driving when I purchased. I’m enjoying hands-free on the highway, coming to trust it more and more, and of course, the truth is I enjoy driving the secondary roads more actively anyway! But yes, it would be great if they pushed the hands-on options as far as they can.

 

[TahoeMichael]

I mean, okay? But “Future Capable” is a meaningless term. There’s no way I would read that as “This car will do everything any future car will ever be able to do, even if no car currently does any of it.”

It could just as easily mean “this car will continue doing what it does in the future.”

If you read that and say “This must mean level 4 autonomy”, I don’t know. That’s sort of on you? To my mind.

No lawyer is going to take that to court. Let’s put it that way.

If the only promise was "future capable", then I agree it'd be hard to have a case. But they made a bunch of marketing statements about L3 autonomy that they didn't walk back, and that plus "future capable" might well be enough for a case. If I was annoyed by the walk-back, I'd probably sue them in small claims court, and see if I could convince a judge that promises were made that I paid for and am now not getting. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that companies have been held responsible for claims made in marketing in the past. I haven't followed all of this closely, but it seems like Lucid only made public statements that walked back the early marketing promises for the Air very recently, and so I think that a buyer in 2024 has a reasonable expectation that they early marketing claims were still in force.

 

[HC_79]

Personally, I don't need 'eyes off' or 'mind off', but it would be great to use hands free driving around town rather than just on the highway and that was my expectation.

Problem is that Lucid never promised that for Air. All the early marketing I saw was for highway only, even the L3 stuff.

 

[joec]

If the only promise was "future capable", then I agree it'd be hard to have a case. But they made a bunch of marketing statements about L3 autonomy that they didn't walk back, and that plus "future capable" might well be enough for a case. If I was annoyed by the walk-back, I'd probably sue them in small claims court, and see if I could convince a judge that promises were made that I paid for and am now not getting. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that companies have been held responsible for claims made in marketing in the past. I haven't followed all of this closely, but it seems like Lucid only made public statements that walked back the early marketing promises for the Air very recently, and so I think that a buyer in 2024 has a reasonable expectation that they early marketing claims were still in force.

I don’t personally recall ever seeing “L3” in any Lucid marketing that was present when I bought my car. People here claim to have seen that. Does anyone have a copy of it?

Again, I’m talking about press releases or the web site as it looked in 2022. Not presentations to investors from back in 2020 or sooner.

I believe you. I just have never seen it myself.

 

[joec]

I’ll also reiterate what I said on another thread, which is that L3 is likely never going to happen for any manufacturer. Not because it’s not possible, but because no lawyer would allow a company to ship it.

Telling someone they don’t need to pay attention, but they are responsible for being in the front seat and somehow “taking over” when needed sounds like a legal nightmare.

What judge is going to rule it’s the passenger’s fault for “not taking over fast enough”?

Level 4 makes a lot more legal sense. Sit in the back. The car handles anything that’s thrown at it within certain geofenced areas.

 

[martinjlm]

This. Mainly the first part. Actually just pushing hands-on Highway Assist (active lane keeping) as far as possible on secondary roads would make me happy I’d be far less comfortable with hands off on secondary roads anyway; way more disruptions that could be caused by stupid drivers—especially in the oncoming lane—and animals and such.

There’s a huge continuum between highway driving and city driving; many regions have lots of wide open rural roads that I have to imagine the Air could easily handle as is. Maybe it would need to be limited to roads with a clear right side white stripe, or maybe a clear center line would be enough?

I swear that about a year ago, my AT surprised me by offering the highway assist mode while I was on a non-highway major US route, one of those with a speed limit of 50 to 65 mph and well striped on both sides of the lane (maybe US202 in Maine/NewHampshire?). I was amazed when I came into a town and it slowed down for a traffic light and picked right up and took off without me when it turned green (there were cars in front of me; in other words, it was acting the same as it would in stop and go traffic on a highway… It was not seeing and responding to the traffic light, but to the other cars.)

I’m not sure if that was just a strange stray secondary route that was part of the mapped “go zone,” or some other kind of anomaly, but I don’t think it’s happened again off of the highway. (I kind of wonder if they were experimenting with that but pulled back?) Still, that does seem within reach of the current hardware and software, which is responding to lines on the road and other vehicles . (I guess that stoplight and stop signs without cars ahead would be a stumbling block; but by requiring hands-on, that would presume we’re paying good attention. Or it could click back down from highway assist to adaptive cruise when it sees a traffic light, like it does with construction cones?)

If they were able to extend our current cars to this, dropping down to adaptive cruise once a certain density of traffic or side roads were encountered as we approach towns and cities, I’d be a very happy camper.

I came in later (early 2025 model), so did not pay as a big premium for ADAS as earlier adopters, but I certainly did not expect hands off city driving when I purchased. I’m enjoying hands-free on the highway, coming to trust it more and more, and of course, the truth is I enjoy driving the secondary roads more actively anyway! But yes, it would be great if they pushed the hands-on options as far as they can.

I’ll also reiterate what I said on another thread, which is that L3 is likely never going to happen for any manufacturer. Not because it’s not possible, but because no lawyer would allow a company to ship it.

Telling someone they don’t need to pay attention, but they are responsible for being in the front seat and somehow “taking over” when needed sounds like a legal nightmare.

What judge is going to rule it’s the passenger’s fault for “not taking over fast enough”?

Level 4 makes a lot more legal sense. Sit in the back. The car handles anything that’s thrown at it within certain geofenced areas.

I think that what @jedwin was experiencing was a result of continuous updating to the mapped roads library that all of the companies are doing. GM (SuperCruise) appears to be the only one that openly discusses how many miles of new mapped roads they are adding. They've also discussed that a lot of suburban and rural roads are now mapped. Not sure what US202 is but in Michigan we have Telegraph Rd. (US24). I've been able to go handsfree on parts of US24.

Totally agree with @joec about L3. There is too much legal gray area around liability to pull that off. I think Mercedes-Benz and Volvo have said that they would assume full responsibility for their vehicles operating on L3 but I don't see others lining up for that. And if I recall correctly, M-B has halted equipping cars with L3 in the US.

 

[Cat Daddy]

Yesterday’s Investor Day left me with a pretty troubling question as an Air owner who paid for DreamDrive Pro.

From what I heard, Lucid discussed a roadmap that seems to move well beyond today’s freeway hands-free capability — toward hands-free city driving, then Level 3, and eventually Level 4 — but the vehicles specifically mentioned appeared to be Gravity and the upcoming midsize platform, including Cosmos. I did not hear the Air mentioned in that part of the roadmap.

If that’s correct, it’s very disappointing.

Many of us bought DreamDrive Pro with the understanding that the Air’s hardware stack was built for meaningful advancement over time. The car has a very substantial 32-sensor suite — cameras, radar, ultrasonic sensors, and LiDAR — and I think it was reasonable for owners to expect progress beyond hands-free highway driving.

So I’m hoping to get to the bottom of two things:

1. Did Lucid explicitly leave the Air out of the future autonomy roadmap?
2. If so, what does that mean for Air owners who paid for DreamDrive Pro expecting the platform to continue to evolve?

To try to get clarity directly, I emailed Kay Stepper, who leads Autonomy, and Nick Twork, who handles communications. If I hear back, I’ll report anything I can share.

I want to be fair here: maybe I missed something, or maybe Lucid intends to clarify that Air will also benefit from some or all of these future autonomy advances. But if the Investor Day message was effectively that Gravity and Cosmos are the path forward for advanced autonomy while Air is not, then I think Lucid owes Air owners a clear explanation.

At a minimum, owners deserve transparency on:

• what DreamDrive Pro on Air will still receive,
• what it will not receive,
• and whether Lucid still considers the Air hardware platform capable of the autonomy progression being discussed publicly.

I’d really like to hear from others who watched the presentation. Did you come away with the same impression, or did I miss an Air-specific commitment somewhere?

I have been wondering the same thing I specifically purchased my GT for autonomous driving capability! Please keep us posted if you get a response from Lucid. It’s bad enough the depreciation we all suffered . I’m paying for a car worth less than what I owe!!! Anybody else have same concern?

 

[TahoeMichael]

I have been wondering the same thing I specifically purchased my GT for autonomous driving capability! Please keep us posted if you get a response from Lucid. It’s bad enough the depreciation we all suffered . I’m paying for a car worth less than what I owe!!! Anybody else have same concern?

I think rapid depreciation is just the nature of the EV market at the moment, and there's no avoiding it. People perceive the technology as continuing to rapidly improve, and so they devalue an older EV much faster than an older ICE, which is perceived as a technology that's not improving much year to year.

 

[HC_79]

I think rapid depreciation is just the nature of the EV market at the moment, and there's no avoiding it. People perceive the technology as continuing to rapidly improve, and so they devalue an older EV much faster than an older ICE, which is perceived as a technology that's not improving much year to year.

Yep, it’s why I traded the Air which I owned in for the Gravity which I leased. All EV’s are taking too much of a depreciation hit right now. No way is my Gravity going to be worth what BoA set the residual at either.

 

[BS8899]

Because Air doesn't have the hardware to support it (UWB)

If so, why did Lucid "implied" it and charge DDPro for $10k?!

 

[borski]

If so, why did Lucid "implied" it and charge DDPro for $10k?!

This was in response to Digital Key, and has nothing to do with DD Pro. Please re-read the original comment that was replied to. You misunderstood.

The Air already has mobile key. It will not get Apple/Android Digital Key, because it doesn't have (and has never had) UWB, only Bluetooth.

 

[johnse]

Heh... My Model X 2018 100D shipped with FSD HW 2.5. I had originally ordered it with EAP and upgraded to FSD when they had a sale on it about a year later. They upgraded it to HW 3.0 when FSD beta finally shipped to honor their promise that All Teslas had the hardware to support FSD.

My X is stuck on FSD 12.6.4 (which in my opinion made it unusable due to bad decision making and the inability to set speed and lane).

Now they are trying to entice me into a Tesla with HW 4 by saying they will transfer the FSD I paid for to a new car.

Not "here's how we can honor our promises and upgrade your current car".

 

[joec]

Heh... My Model X 2018 100D shipped with FSD HW 2.5. I had originally ordered it with EAP and upgraded to FSD when they had a sale on it about a year later. They upgraded it to HW 3.0 when FSD beta finally shipped to honor their promise that All Teslas had the hardware to support FSD.

My X is stuck on FSD 12.6.4 (which in my opinion made it unusable due to bad decision making and the inability to set speed and lane).

Now they are trying to entice me into a Tesla with HW 4 by saying they will transfer the FSD I paid for to a new car.

Not "here's how we can honor our promises and upgrade your current car".

Yeah. It’s a good point of comparison.

But I think most of us agree it would be better if Lucid strove to do better than Tesla, not the same.

Still, it does help me to remember most players in this industry are under delivering on everything.

Who here thinks we’re actually going to see consumer cars doing full level 4 by 2029? I have a bridge I can sell you.

Which is why I never consider anything any company tells me about future capabilities a “promise.” It’s a hope, at best. If it works out, nice. If not, buyer beware.

 

[Robb-Indian Well]

Yesterday’s Investor Day left me with a pretty troubling question as an Air owner who paid for DreamDrive Pro.

From what I heard, Lucid discussed a roadmap that seems to move well beyond today’s freeway hands-free capability — toward hands-free city driving, then Level 3, and eventually Level 4 — but the vehicles specifically mentioned appeared to be Gravity and the upcoming midsize platform, including Cosmos. I did not hear the Air mentioned in that part of the roadmap.

If that’s correct, it’s very disappointing.

Many of us bought DreamDrive Pro with the understanding that the Air’s hardware stack was built for meaningful advancement over time. The car has a very substantial 32-sensor suite — cameras, radar, ultrasonic sensors, and LiDAR — and I think it was reasonable for owners to expect progress beyond hands-free highway driving.

So I’m hoping to get to the bottom of two things:

1. Did Lucid explicitly leave the Air out of the future autonomy roadmap?
2. If so, what does that mean for Air owners who paid for DreamDrive Pro expecting the platform to continue to evolve?

To try to get clarity directly, I emailed Kay Stepper, who leads Autonomy, and Nick Twork, who handles communications. If I hear back, I’ll report anything I can share.

I want to be fair here: maybe I missed something, or maybe Lucid intends to clarify that Air will also benefit from some or all of these future autonomy advances. But if the Investor Day message was effectively that Gravity and Cosmos are the path forward for advanced autonomy while Air is not, then I think Lucid owes Air owners a clear explanation.

At a minimum, owners deserve transparency on:

• what DreamDrive Pro on Air will still receive,
• what it will not receive,
• and whether Lucid still considers the Air hardware platform capable of the autonomy progression being discussed publicly.

I’d really like to hear from others who watched the presentation. Did you come away with the same impression, or did I miss an Air-specific commitment somewhere?

Sorry, did not watch presentation. BUT, I moved from Tesla with “Enhances self-driving” to Lucid Air Touring DDPro fully expecting Lucid to improve autonomy. Lucid should be transparent on the issue.

 

[Robb-Indian Well]

Still, it does help me to remember most players in this industry are under delivering on everything.

Not helpful, as an early adopter I understand the risk. That said, to miss expectations on a a key issue such as autonomy will damage the brand.

 

[bassmaster187]

This. Mainly the first part. Actually just pushing hands-on Highway Assist (active lane keeping) as far as possible on secondary roads would make me happy I’d be far less comfortable with hands off on secondary roads anyway; way more disruptions that could be caused by stupid drivers—especially in the oncoming lane—and animals and such.

I had the same bug and it worked even on city streets, but that's in Germany. We have a different firmware, because we don't have hands free driving.
I was very surprised how good it worked. I agree 100% with you, Lucid really should enable DDPro on all streets. Most of the time I drive on secondary roads and searching for a song is much more dangerous without lane centering. Yes, Lucid never promised that, but right now every cheap car comes with lane centering on any roads. In two years my leasing will end. I don't really need level 1000, but basic lane centering on any road is the minimum I'll accept.

 

[sammy168]

I would never of bought my air touring for over 100K in 2023 if I knew better today !. It is very disappointing what lucid promised me and not deliver. To add salt to the wound, the resale for my car is around 40K or less … you are basically stuck with this car.

 

[sammy168]

Heh... My Model X 2018 100D shipped with FSD HW 2.5. I had originally ordered it with EAP and upgraded to FSD when they had a sale on it about a year later. They upgraded it to HW 3.0 when FSD beta finally shipped to honor their promise that All Teslas had the hardware to support FSD.

My X is stuck on FSD 12.6.4 (which in my opinion made it unusable due to bad decision making and the inability to set speed and lane).

Now they are trying to entice me into a Tesla with HW 4 by saying they will transfer the FSD I paid for to a new car.

Not "here's how we can honor our promises and upgrade your current car".

I agree, that is what lucid should do… I have the same experience my model s in 2017 with full FSD. They upgraded my HW and my camera systems and it is still compatible with FDS software today (with some limitations ) This will be the right thing for lucid to do. I spend 10K for DDP in2023 with all the fancy cameras and Lidar system to do what a Hyundai can do today