Air + DreamDrive Pro: Were We Left Behind?

[bassmaster187]

Lucid doesn’t have OBD-II, so it’s a little harder, but not impossible.

So basically, spent $1000 for CommaAI is much better than $7000 for Dream Drive Pro.
At least it works on any road type, not just on predefined highways.

 

[tmichael]

IDK years ago I had a printer that would not work with a newer OS. I didn't complain but I have never bought anything from that firm again. Not a big deal for them I'm sure. But it does make me feel better to automatically eliminate them from consideration when I'm shopping for monitors, scanners, printers and computers.

Not to be repetitive, but I will be anyway - This is the wonderful part of capitalism and how we are allowed to choose winners and losers with our pocketbooks! We have choices and we direct our own capital (individual consumers make up by far the largest part of our economy) to reward those we like - and essentially crush those companies wo don't support, for whatever reasons.

Except for commoditized items (I don't care who makes my grandson's number 2 pencils), I choose based on what value I perceive I receive. Someone else may not place the same value on a feature or benefit or trait of a particular product or service. If enough people don't share my perceived value, the company goes out of business and I am forced to choose a different company or service.

Ain't America Great! (I was saying that long before it got turned into a campaign slogan and stripped of what is meant by it.)

 

[suchluke]

This is the take I agree with.

I love my car, but transparency is important here - it’s okay for things to have changed, imho. That happens. Unforeseen circumstances occur. Best laid plans of mice and men and all that.

But I think communicating about it would go a long way. I would actually be fine if it were simply that they were wrong and it won’t work out because of *reasons*. I’d just want to know those reasons.

I’m perfectly happy with it as is, and I don’t need any more personally. But that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to see it, especially if it was promised.

And if they can’t deliver, that’s actually okay in my book, provided it isn’t because “we don’t want to,” but for valid reasons. I’m certain there are valid reasons. It would just be nice to know what they are.

I might be wrong on the reasons part and this is not confirmed by any data and its pure speculation on my part based on my experience in software industry. The most probable reason for Air not to have ADAS city driving capabilities is cost. The Air and Gravity have totally different hardware and software platforms. If Lucid would to implement the same futures in Air as in Gravity they calculated the cost it would take and they will never make any profit. Because there is just not enough people buying new Airs. Most of existing Air owners already paid for DDP so they can't just apply additional monthly fees on top if owners already paid $10K for DDP. Lucid just can't afford implemententing a solution for Air at this point and the new leadership made a conscious decision to move on to something else that would make the company profitable. I am not saying this is the only reason. Hardware limitations and potential upgrades required down the road is also part of the whole problem. I am still driving my AIR and not planning to get rid of it as of now. But Lucid is turning attention to "new" customers that would potentially bring additional streams of money and existing Air owners that already paid of DDP Pro are not it.

 

[joec]

I might be wrong on the reasons part and this is not confirmed by any data and its pure speculation on my part based on my experience in software industry. The most probable reason for Air not to have ADAS city driving capabilities is cost. The Air and Gravity have totally different hardware and software platforms. If Lucid would to implement the same futures in Air as in Gravity they calculated the cost it would take and they will never make any profit. Because there is just not enough people buying new Airs. Most of existing Air owners already paid for DDP so they can't just apply additional monthly fees on top if owners already paid $10K for DDP. Lucid just can't afford implemententing a solution for Air at this point and the new leadership made a conscious decision to move on to something else that would make the company profitable. I am not saying this is the only reason. Hardware limitations and potential upgrades required down the road is also part of the whole problem. I am still driving my AIR and not planning to get rid of it as of now. But Lucid is turning attention to "new" customers that would potentially bring additional streams of money and existing Air owners that already paid of DDP Pro are not it.

Bingo. Not only have they not sold that many Airs, they will sometime in the next few years almost certainly replace the current Air with a model that shares a lot more computer architecture with Cosmos, etc. So there will forever be a finite, small number of this current Air architecture out there. The sooner they get those cars off the road, the more profitable Lucid will be. Spending time and effort to make those cars more attractive long term is counter to their ability to make money.

 

[Buffalo Bob]

I might be wrong on the reasons part and this is not confirmed by any data and its pure speculation on my part based on my experience in software industry. The most probable reason for Air not to have ADAS city driving capabilities is cost. The Air and Gravity have totally different hardware and software platforms. If Lucid would to implement the same futures in Air as in Gravity they calculated the cost it would take and they will never make any profit. Because there is just not enough people buying new Airs. Most of existing Air owners already paid for DDP so they can't just apply additional monthly fees on top if owners already paid $10K for DDP. Lucid just can't afford implemententing a solution for Air at this point and the new leadership made a conscious decision to move on to something else that would make the company profitable. I am not saying this is the only reason. Hardware limitations and potential upgrades required down the road is also part of the whole problem. I am still driving my AIR and not planning to get rid of it as of now. But Lucid is turning attention to "new" customers that would potentially bring additional streams of money and existing Air owners that already paid of DDP Pro are not it.

A very reasonable hypothesis, and if correct, one wherein Lucid should be asking themselves just what they CAN do incrementally at a reasonable cost, and then figuring out, as an ethical company, what they MUST do to at compensate DDP buyers for any remaining shortfall.

And now, back to hearing for the umpteenth time how my lying eyes are deceiving me about the DDP feature set information I relied on at the time that I bought my Pure AWD.

 

[borski]

So basically, spent $1000 for CommaAI is much better than $7000 for Dream Drive Pro.
At least it works on any road type, not just on predefined highways.

That’s not even remotely true. And, again: Comma would not work without all of the effort put into DDP by Lucid (or another manufacturer). It relies on the availability of things like Adaptive Cruise Control and Lane Keeping Assist to already be built in.

Moreover, it is extremely limited in what it can and can’t do, but is a fantastic project for what it does.

(geohot is/was a friend; haven’t seen him in a long time though)

 

[Adnillien]

The Air Dream Drive videos clearly allude to L3 eyes off coming in a future update. I don't take this as a promise form Lucid, but Lucid did set that expectation among early owners. I may be naive, but I believed that the Air would get to L3 when I purchased the car.

I agree with the comments about this being a cost driven decision. The one cost not being talked about is liability. When automakers take on L3 or L4 autonomy, they are taking on the liability for any accidents that happen while the car is autonomously driving in L3 or L4. It takes tons of validation work before any company will take on that kind of liability. There are too few Airs on the road to make this feasible for Lucid. Who knows, the same could be true for Gravity. The Air and Gravity system hardware is likely capable of L3, it may never be released because of the liability concern and the amount of validation required to overcome that concern.

 

[suchluke]

A very reasonable hypothesis, and if correct, one wherein Lucid should be asking themselves just what they CAN do incrementally at a reasonable cost, and then figuring out, as an ethical company, what they MUST do to at compensate DDP buyers for any remaining shortfall.

And now, back to hearing for the umpteenth time how my lying eyes are deceiving me about the DDP feature set information I relied on at the time that I bought my Pure AWD.

Unfortunately, the leadership that was empathetic and cared for original Air owners and early adopters is gone. Replaced by PIF using revenue and profit driven folks that are trying to turn the company around into profitability. Lucid is just not selling enough cars to be profitable in the near future. They need to change their focus to software subscription driven sales and profitable service centers that will make money keep coming in on a regular basis. The best you can wish for is refunding original Air owners who paid $10K for ADAS but its probably going be a difference between current ADAS cost vs original. Do I see it happen in the near future, no I doubt. They are counting every dollar. Maybe they will do something for the original owners later for example transferring ADAS to new car purchase like Cosmos or Gravity. I just don't see them spening money and reasorces to enhace what they think is already obsolete platform.

 

[suchluke]

The Air Dream Drive videos clearly allude to L3 eyes off coming in a future update. I don't take this as a promise form Lucid, but Lucid did set that expectation among early owners. I may be naive, but I believed that the Air would get to L3 when I purchased the car.

I agree with the comments about this being a cost driven decision. The one cost not being talked about is liability. When automakers take on L3 or L4 autonomy, they are taking on the liability for any accidents that happen while the car is autonomously driving in L3 or L4. It takes tons of validation work before any company will take on that kind of liability. There are too few Airs on the road to make this feasible for Lucid. Who knows, the same could be true for Gravity. The Air and Gravity system hardware is likely capable of L3, it may never be released because of the liability concern and the amount of validation required to overcome that concern.

Good point on liability. And that is why we have hands on or eyes on still in current Air. The hardware is definitely more than capable for L3 and maybe even L4. But you need tons of resources and money to make it happen. Lucid won't admit it because it will piss off too many customers that could even more jeopardize future sales. It's easier and safer to blame it on hardware limitations. Because they can't build 2 or 3 different solutions for each platform (Air, Gravity, and Cosmos). I will be happy to see 3.0 being ported back to Air but any hardware upgrades will be shifted to original customer. Later they will eventually stop maintaining 2.X branch and those who don't upgrade will be left behind without support because warranty will expire by that point.

 

[Buffalo Bob]

All good points above, and I don't think inconsistent with my earlier comments. While speaking only for myself, I would be satisfied if Lucid would push eyes-on hands-free as far as they reasonably could, throw in the towel on anything eyes-off, and issue some reasonable compensation for the diminished capabilities. Doing that, and refunding the difference between the DDP price paid and the (I suppose post watered down) current ADAS cost would seem reasonable to me.

The incremental development and refund cost vs. profit objectives in this scenario doesn't hold much water for me. Lucid didn't worry about that much when they have progressively discounted the Air models in the name of volume over profit, so what's the difference in absorbing the cost of delivering what eyes-on DDP features they reasonably can, and refunding some of the high DDP price paid in the name of customer sat?

 

[bassmaster187]

That’s not even remotely true. And, again: Comma would not work without all of the effort put into DDP by Lucid (or another manufacturer). It relies on the availability of things like Adaptive Cruise Control and Lane Keeping Assist to already be built in.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if basically I need to
- connect to the can bus
- read messages
- decode messages (steering, brake pedal etc...)
- send messages
- have fun

yes, sounds eazy, but I'm a developer for 30 years, so maybe I could make it. I was involved in OVMS (Open Vehicle Monitor System) , decoding CAN signals for Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh, so decoding CAN messages isn't anything new to me.

Open Vehicle Monitoring System | Open Vehicles

www.openvehicles.com

I'm also helping Amund on ScanMyTesla and he is a friend of mine. I'm sure he can help me find the messages.

The question is: is it woth to spent weeks for this project? My lease ends in 2 years and if Lucid Motors won't give the Air some love, I'll move forward. I don't like SUVs, so it doesn't matter if the Gravity or the Cosmo will be the best car ever...

 

[tarator]

Unfortunately, the leadership that was empathetic and cared for original Air owners and early adopters is gone. Replaced by PIF using revenue and profit driven folks that are trying to turn the company around into profitability. Lucid is just not selling enough cars to be profitable in the near future. They need to change their focus to software subscription driven sales and profitable service centers that will make money keep coming in on a regular basis. The best you can wish for is refunding original Air owners who paid $10K for ADAS but its probably going be a difference between current ADAS cost vs original. Do I see it happen in the near future, no I doubt. They are counting every dollar. Maybe they will do something for the original owners later for example transferring ADAS to new car purchase like Cosmos or Gravity. I just don't see them spening money and reasorces to enhace what they think is already obsolete platform.

Software subscription model sounds good (for the company) in theory, but I haven't seen it work in practice. So, overall, putting all your eggs in a fantasy.

 

[borski]

Unfortunately, the leadership that was empathetic and cared for original Air owners and early adopters is gone.

This is simply untrue. I can guarantee you the current team is still "empathetic" and cares about original Air owners.

 

[borski]

Maybe I'm wrong, but if basically I need to
- connect to the can bus
- read messages
- decode messages (steering, brake pedal etc...)
- send messages
- have fun

yes, sounds eazy, but I'm a developer for 30 years, so maybe I could make it. I was involved in OVMS (Open Vehicle Monitor System) , decoding CAN signals for Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh, so decoding CAN messages isn't anything new to me.

Open Vehicle Monitoring System | Open Vehicles

www.openvehicles.com

I'm also helping Amund on ScanMyTesla and he is a friend of mine. I'm sure he can help me find the messages.

The question is: is it woth to spent weeks for this project? My lease ends in 2 years and if Lucid Motors won't give the Air some love, I'll move forward. I don't like SUVs, so it doesn't matter if the Gravity or the Cosmo will be the best car ever...

View attachment 37322

You're not wrong. Normally, connecting to the CAN bus is done via the OBD-II port. The Air does not have one.

Realistically, getting OpenPilot on the Lucid Air would be very challenging because they use Automotive Ethernet for all their ADAS functions, and the CAN bus appears to be heavily locked down. However, it is theoretically feasible, similar to how people added it to Tesla; it would just take significant time and effort to reverse-engineer and integrate properly.

It's definitely doable, but hasn't been done yet. I'm in their discord, and there's a couple people that have mentioned it, but nobody's taken on the task. You should!

 

[Mr.Quindazzi]

You're not wrong. Normally, connecting to the CAN bus is done via the OBD-II port. The Air does not have one.

It was my apparently wrong impression that OBD-II ports were mandatory for all cars. I guess there is some sort of legal exemption, but that just seems like a terrible idea. Do you know anything about the origins of the decision to leave it out?

 

[L-Dude]

I can't quite parse this and don't want to read the entire thread from the beginning. Is the hive mad because Lucid isn't promising L3 for the Air, or are we simply dissatisfied with the current state of DDP? I can never figure out who I'm supposed to be mad at.

 

[bassmaster187]

You're not wrong. Normally, connecting to the CAN bus is done via the OBD-II port. The Air does not have one.

Realistically, getting OpenPilot on the Lucid Air would be very challenging because they use Automotive Ethernet for all their ADAS functions, and the CAN bus appears to be heavily locked down. However, it is theoretically feasible, similar to how people added it to Tesla; it would just take significant time and effort to reverse-engineer and integrate properly.

It's definitely doable, but hasn't been done yet. I'm in their discord, and there's a couple people that have mentioned it, but nobody's taken on the task. You should!

Teslas doesn't have a OBD-II port, but have a CAN bus. You just need an adapter cable. I sell them

Diagnosekabel – Teslalogger Shop

shop.teslalogger.de

The question is: do Lucid really don't have a CAN bus. If there is automotive ethernet, it would be not that eazy... At least I have no experience with automotive ethernet.

 

[borski]

Teslas doesn't have a OBD-II port, but have a CAN bus. You just need an adapter cable. I sell them

Diagnosekabel – Teslalogger Shop

shop.teslalogger.de

The question is: do Lucid really don't have a CAN bus. If there is automotive ethernet, it would be not that eazy... At least I have no experience with automotive ethernet.

They do use CAN bus, and it is (I believe, but have not verified) not unencrypted. And accessible only over automotive Ethernet, to my knowledge.

But I have not tried to reverse engineer it myself, so I can’t speak from experience.

 

[Alex]

They do use CAN bus, and it is (I believe, but have not verified) not unencrypted. And accessible only over automotive Ethernet, to my knowledge.

But I have not tried to reverse engineer it myself, so I can’t speak from experience.

What about the cyber truck? It has an ethernet ring like the Lucid. The requirements for the ODB II port are primarily for emission requirements and other ice related items, and those are not necessary for electric cars. There’s a minimum set of requirements primarily for things like mileage and VIN I believe.

 

[tonybot]

Teslas doesn't have a OBD-II port, but have a CAN bus. You just need an adapter cable. I sell them

Diagnosekabel – Teslalogger Shop

shop.teslalogger.de

The question is: do Lucid really don't have a CAN bus. If there is automotive ethernet, it would be not that eazy... At least I have no experience with automotive Ethernet.

Amazing and super glad that you are a Lucid owner. I don’t have the tech skills to be of assistance, but if you ever take this up, I will be happy to help. I had a comma that worked perfectly for my Lexus. I sold it when I sold my Lexus, as my other cars (Lucid and BMW) were not supported.