Living with the Lucid Gravity: A Tesla Owner’s Journey

[Bdr100]

Actually, Tesla uses MapBox's Valhalla routing engine, with OpenStreetMaps as one of its data sources. Like most systems today, routing computations are done on a server and then sent to the vehicle. Tesla hosts its own routing servers (running Valhalla), providing the MapBox API. Correct that Tesla uses Google for visualization (Baidu in China I believe).

As for CarPlay, the only "piece" for Apple to do is test and approve, they don't have development to do. I've lead intotainment development for two automotive OEMs, both doing CarPlay, so I have real world experience with this. You buy the special chip from Apple and put it in your system, and then the programming is all on you. Apple has great documentation, and describes their testing well. They work with you during development, but unless you find a bona-fide bug, they aren't coding anything themselves. Heck, once the chip is in your infotainment system, CarPlay can work - that's how you develop and test.

And, relevant to this thread, I have a GGT on order, supposedly a 3rd week of Nov start of production date. I've been driving electric since 2011 when I bought a Tesla Roadster (which I still own and drive). I also had one of the first 2000 Model 3s, and two Model Xs. We're terminating our Model X lease early to get a Gravity.

Navigation on the Teslas has been great. At first, we ran both Apple and Google Maps to see what routes it suggested, especially when traffic was an issue, but it was, in our experience, just as good. The way it suggests charging stops on road trips is really nice, too, as it knows which chargers are busy and which aren't, plus it optimizes overall charging time. But,I'll post my own comparisons once we get our vehicle.

I would take that estimate of 3rd week Nov for your production start with a big grain of salt being as I see your build includes Tech Pkg and ordered in Sept. I have been trying to gage how Lucid is doing on production of GGT with Tech. So far I have only seen some very early orders (Nov/Dec 2024) go into production or be delivered so far. I know there has been a large ramp in Gravity production but I have a feeling that even though Lucid is now building GGTs with Tech, that HUDs are still heavily supply constrained (especially since a lot of the early ones are having to be replaced due to ghosting issues.). Hopefully I am wrong and there are a bunch of pallets of HUDs sitting in factory ready to be installed into a couple hundred GGTs.

 

[Smorgasbord]

Rivian CEO Doubles Down on Decision to Not Offer Apple CarPlay​

Rivian CEO Doubles Down on Decision to Not Offer Apple CarPlay

On the latest episode of The Verge's Decoder podcast, Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe told guest host Joanna Stern why the EV maker continues to pass on Apple's CarPlay — both the standard version and the more advanced CarPlay Ultra. Echoing his previous comments on the matter, Scaringe said Rivian is...

www.macrumors.com

Echoing his previous comments on the matter, Scaringe said Rivian is focused on offering a "seamless digital experience," where customers do not need to switch between its own software and CarPlay. Instead, he said Rivian prefers to provide an à-la-carte selection of built-in apps, such as Apple Music, Google Maps, Spotify, and YouTube.

Scaringe said he is "very confident" in Rivian's decision to skip CarPlay, especially as it plans to integrate AI into its vehicles over the next 18 months. For example, he said Rivian is planning a native AI-powered voice-to-text feature for messaging.

"We're really convicted on this," he said.

Nevertheless, Scaringe acknowledged that some customers will not purchase a Rivian given the lack of CarPlay. "We accept that," he said.

"Some of those decisions not everyone's going to agree with," he said. "That's okay."

I didn't watch/listen, but from the quote, the reasons listed in the quote are probably not the real reasons.

 

[Bdr100]

Rivian CEO Doubles Down on Decision to Not Offer Apple CarPlay​

Rivian CEO Doubles Down on Decision to Not Offer Apple CarPlay

On the latest episode of The Verge's Decoder podcast, Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe told guest host Joanna Stern why the EV maker continues to pass on Apple's CarPlay — both the standard version and the more advanced CarPlay Ultra. Echoing his previous comments on the matter, Scaringe said Rivian is...

www.macrumors.com

I didn't watch/listen, but from the quote, the reasons listed in the quote are probably not the real reasons.

I would tend to agree as long as you can give me an accurate and reliable nav and Apple Music native app.

 

[borski]

Rivian CEO Doubles Down on Decision to Not Offer Apple CarPlay​

Rivian CEO Doubles Down on Decision to Not Offer Apple CarPlay

On the latest episode of The Verge's Decoder podcast, Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe told guest host Joanna Stern why the EV maker continues to pass on Apple's CarPlay — both the standard version and the more advanced CarPlay Ultra. Echoing his previous comments on the matter, Scaringe said Rivian is...

www.macrumors.com

I didn't watch/listen, but from the quote, the reasons listed in the quote are probably not the real reasons.

I actually think he’s telling the truth. Rivian’s UX stack is written in Unreal Engine, which is a video game engine, which is why it’s so smooth and flexible. Games, kinda by definition, really care about frame rate.

Because they’re proud of their UX, I could totally see them really wanting not to break people out of it.

They have plenty of bugs (everyone does, even if people seem to think it’s just Lucid), but their UX stack is pretty great.

 

[Ron_Burgundy]

I actually think he’s telling the truth. Rivian’s UX stack is written in Unreal Engine, which is a video game engine, which is why it’s so smooth and flexible. Games, kinda by definition, really care about frame rate.

Because they’re proud of their UX, I could totally see them really wanting not to break people out of it.

They have plenty of bugs (everyone does, even if people seem to think it’s just Lucid), but their UX stack is pretty great.

As the owner of a G1 R1S, I can say their UX is anything but snappy. It’s slow to load screens (unless they’re cached) and slow to respond to touch.

Maybe they upgraded it significantly in G2. I really can’t stand it on our R1S.

Also, I highly doubt they’re using proprietary tech for voice to text. There are so many excellent public code libraries available for it.

I think he just had to use the “AI” phrase…

 

[borski]

As the owner of a G1 R1S, I can say their UX is anything but snappy. It’s slow to load screens (unless they’re cached) and slow to respond to touch.

Maybe they upgraded it significantly in G2. I really can’t stand it on our R1S.

Also, I highly doubt they’re using proprietary tech for voice to text. There are so many excellent public code libraries available for it.

I think he just had to use the “AI” phrase…

Fair enough. I haven’t played with it enough to say, but it seemed snappy when I used it.

I’m borrowing an R1S soon though, so it’ll be interesting to compare.

 

[socktucker]

Yes, the special Apple chip [Apple Authentication Coprocessor (also known as the MFI Authentication IC or coprocessor)], which is the reason Tesla or Rivian don't have/want CarPlay – they would have to add it to their car's hardware.

I think they have to pay a fee to Apple too, right? I know accessories do.

 

[DeaneG]

I would tend to agree as long as you can give me an accurate and reliable nav and Apple Music native app.

I'd agree. If we had access to Google maps and voice assistant, Messages, and a few favorite music and podcast apps, all cloud-synced to the car owner's ecosystem, I think the demand for Android Auto would be low. Add Apple maps, iMessage, and Apple music, and the same would be true for CarPlay. Some automakers are explicitly pursuing this strategy (Tesla, Rivian, GM, etc) with varying degrees of completion and success.

Notably there are also many shipping AAOS-based vehicle infotainment systems that have access to a curated version of an android app store with Google maps, Apple Music, etc (Honda/Acura, Volvo, Porsche, Polestar, etc) but which also support Android Auto and CarPlay so that potential buyers don't reject the car out of hand due to a missing check-off item spec.

I don't want Android Auto or CarPlay in my car any more than I would want to rely on it to operate my TV, oven, or fridge. What if someone sold a tablet that wouldn't run the most common apps on its own - the user had to connect a phone to it and run CarPlay to make it useful. No one would buy that.

CarPlay and Android Auto are only temporary band-aids, giving people access to the apps that they want while automakers catch up with developing modern connected infotainment systems. Going forward, I think every mass-market car should natively run the mass-market apps everyone uses on their phones, and have the capability to cloud-sync to their respective ecosystems.

 

[borski]

I think they have to pay a fee to Apple too, right? I know accessories do.

Yes. Manufacturers do not pay an upfront cost; instead, they pay a licensing fee to Apple for each unit that supports CarPlay.

 

[socktucker]

I'd agree. If we had access to Google maps and voice assistant, Messages, and a few favorite music and podcast apps, all cloud-synced to the car owner's ecosystem, I think the demand for Android Auto would be low. Add Apple maps, iMessage, and Apple music, and the same would be true for CarPlay. Some automakers are explicitly pursuing this strategy (Tesla, Rivian, GM, etc) with varying degrees of completion and success.

Notably there are also many shipping AAOS-based vehicle infotainment systems that have access to a curated version of an android app store with Google maps, Apple Music, etc (Honda/Acura, Volvo, Porsche, Polestar, etc) but which also support Android Auto and CarPlay so that potential buyers don't reject the car out of hand due to a missing check-off item spec.

I don't want Android Auto or CarPlay in my car any more than I would want to rely on it to operate my TV, oven, or fridge. What if someone sold a tablet that wouldn't run the most common apps on its own - the user had to connect a phone to it and run CarPlay to make it useful. No one would buy that.

CarPlay and Android Auto are only temporary band-aids, giving people access to the apps that they want while automakers catch up with developing modern connected infotainment systems. Going forward, I think every mass-market car should natively run the mass-market apps everyone uses on their phones, and have the capability to cloud-sync to their respective ecosystems.

One thing I appreciate about Lucid is the app is optional. I can drive it without my phone even on me. I can call a number and get a human in 30 seconds for customer service. Tesla, on the other hand, is app only. Period, full stop. They don’t even have customer service. Setting up payments is a mess because you’re forced to use their app and their site doesn’t let you manage anything.

 

[Smorgasbord]

Manufacturers do not pay an upfront cost; instead, they pay a licensing fee to Apple for each unit that supports CarPlay.

Actually, there is an upfront cost in that OEMs pay for initial Apple certification.
But, there isn't a licensing fee, per se. Apple makes their money on the chip OEMs have to buy and use to enable CarPlay in their vehicles.

 

[borski]

Actually, there is an upfront cost in that OEMs pay for initial Apple certification.
But, there isn't a licensing fee, per se. Apple makes their money on the chip OEMs have to buy and use to enable CarPlay in their vehicles.

True. I wasn’t counting the certification.

 

[Smorgasbord]

What if someone sold a tablet that wouldn't run the most common apps on its own - the user had to connect a phone to it and run CarPlay to make it useful. No one would buy that.

That's not really the appropriate analogy.
CarPlay is a way for owners to "mirror" their phone onto their vehicle's infotainment system. You already have a phone with a lot of information (contacts, etc.) on it, and CarPlay is a way to control your phone through your car legally and safely. Apple spent a lot of effort on the UI above and beyond the regular app's UI, and CarPlay certified apps need to get Apple's blessing to be enabled.

OEMs don't like it because it makes their cars feel like other cars. Some users love it because it makes all their cars feel the same. When I was traveling for business, I loved it because as long as my rental car supported CarPlay, I'd have access to my phone and text contacts, as well as addresses for businesses I was traveling to.

Apple has been extending CarPlay in some good ways, as well as some controversial ways. One of the more controversial ways is enabling OEMs to provide their own climate app, for instance, so one doesn't have to leave CarPlay to adjust the fan speed or cabin temperature. I haven't use the latest versions, but one thing that was missing for EVs was the ability to integrate EV charging data/specifics into Apple Maps. I don't think, for instance, there's a way for OEMs to have the car find ideal charging stops for a long road trip within Apple Maps within CarPlay. But, Apple has gotten better about letting CarPlay not take over the entire screen all the time, so OEMs if they want could get more creative.

It took Tesla years to get their Navigation to work right. But, now it certainly does, and in our Tesla we don't miss Google nor Apple Maps. I can't say that about any other car I've driven. Will Gravity surprise me?

 

[Ron_Burgundy]

That's not really the appropriate analogy.
CarPlay is a way for owners to "mirror" their phone onto their vehicle's infotainment system. You already have a phone with a lot of information (contacts, etc.) on it, and CarPlay is a way to control your phone through your car legally and safely. Apple spent a lot of effort on the UI above and beyond the regular app's UI, and CarPlay certified apps need to get Apple's blessing to be enabled.

OEMs don't like it because it makes their cars feel like other cars. Some users love it because it makes all their cars feel the same. When I was traveling for business, I loved it because as long as my rental car supported CarPlay, I'd have access to my phone and text contacts, as well as addresses for businesses I was traveling to.

Apple has been extending CarPlay in some good ways, as well as some controversial ways. One of the more controversial ways is enabling OEMs to provide their own climate app, for instance, so one doesn't have to leave CarPlay to adjust the fan speed or cabin temperature. I haven't use the latest versions, but one thing that was missing for EVs was the ability to integrate EV charging data/specifics into Apple Maps. I don't think, for instance, there's a way for OEMs to have the car find ideal charging stops for a long road trip within Apple Maps within CarPlay. But, Apple has gotten better about letting CarPlay not take over the entire screen all the time, so OEMs if they want could get more creative.

It took Tesla years to get their Navigation to work right. But, now it certainly does, and in our Tesla we don't miss Google nor Apple Maps. I can't say that about any other car I've driven. Will Gravity surprise me?

Gravity won’t surprise you with excellent navigation. Obviously, there are lots of folks here who have no issues with it. However, it’s “meh” for me. Still using Waze. That said, I still have the navigation on our X and the X continues to take circuitous routes, etc. Maybe just an east coast issue…

 

[Smorgasbord]

That said, I still have the navigation on our X and the X continues to take circuitous routes, etc. Maybe just an east coast issue…

Until today, I would have disagreed - but I am in California. We've found that Tesla's traffic-aware routing to be good - so good that I finally convinced my wife to use it even when she knows where she's going since she doesn't always know the traffic will be. I saved us lots of time recently when I was driving, and that surprised/convinced her.

That said, today, it planned a route through a freeway with lots of traffic. I took side streets since I know the area well, and arrived a minute earlier than the Tesla had predicted, and while it was more involved taking side streets, it was more pleasurable than sitting in jammed freeway traffic (probably an accident).

I feel it's important for an EV to have really good navigation, since on road trips you rely on the navigation not just to get to there the quickest, most painless way, but also to schedule your charging stops. Otherwise it takes two people - one to drive and one to use the phone to find the right charging stops. WIth my upcoming GGT's 450ish mile range (5 seats, small wheels) many of our trips won't need an en-route charging stop anymore, so there's that to consider as well.

 

[DeaneG]

Until today, I would have disagreed - but I am in California. We've found that Tesla's traffic-aware routing to be good - so good that I finally convinced my wife to use it even when she knows where she's going since she doesn't always know the traffic will be. I saved us lots of time recently when I was driving, and that surprised/convinced her...

Tesla uses Google maps' Places database, so it is the most complete and accurate information available in the USA.
Lucid's HERE maps has a fraction of the amount of POI data Google has - my guess is around 10% from long experience.

That's not really the appropriate analogy.
CarPlay is a way for owners to "mirror" their phone onto their vehicle's infotainment system. You already have a phone with a lot of information (contacts, etc.) on it, and CarPlay is a way to control your phone through your car legally and safely....

After you've used Lucid's navigation for a while, and find yourself always reaching for Apple or Google or Waze via CarPlay instead, you may see my point about Lucid's cars not being able to run the most commonly used apps like Google Maps or Waze.

Our other AAOS EV runs Google maps, Waze etc natively in the UX. And it also has our contacts and our search history and maps search history, cloud-synced and seamless, just like another mobile device. It's very nice to use and does not need a phone to work well. It essentially is another phone itself, logged into the same cloud accounts as your primary phone.

 

[Smorgasbord]

After you've used Lucid's navigation for a while, and find yourself always reaching for Apple or Google or Waze via CarPlay instead, you may see my point about Lucid's cars not being able to run the most commonly used apps like Google Maps or Waze.

I'd be happy to run CarPlay if Lucid has integrated finding compatible charging stations (and their status) into it somehow.
But, apparently CarPlay is a future feature, and I suspect that integration isn't on the list of things Lucid will undertake shortly.

 

[DeaneG]

I'd be happy to run CarPlay if Lucid has integrated finding compatible charging stations (and their status) into it somehow.
But, apparently CarPlay is a future feature, and I suspect that integration isn't on the list of things Lucid will undertake shortly.

I agree completely. If the car could communicate SOC back to the phone for CarPlay and Android Auto, they would be a much more useful solution for road trips.
I can't speak for Apple maps, but Google does a great job with EV route planning and charge scheduling if the automaker gives it the opportunity.

 

[Ron_Burgundy]

I agree completely. If the car could communicate SOC back to the phone for CarPlay and Android Auto, they would be a much more useful solution for road trips.
I can't speak for Apple maps, but Google does a great job with EV route planning and charge scheduling if the automaker gives it the opportunity.

So this ^ is my issue. CarPlay is great but doesn’t know my range. My car (Rivian, X or Gravity) knows my range and stats but have horrible navigation. So, I do the two screen thing.

Every time I start to trust one of the car’s nav systems, I have a huge issue that makes me late to something…

Even Waze is pretty weak still with showing EV stops along the way. And ABRP isn’t really good for live traffic, etc.

Amazing we still have this issue…

 

[hydbob]

Until today, I would have disagreed - but I am in California. We've found that Tesla's traffic-aware routing to be good - so good that I finally convinced my wife to use it even when she knows where she's going since she doesn't always know the traffic will be. I saved us lots of time recently when I was driving, and that surprised/convinced her.

That said, today, it planned a route through a freeway with lots of traffic. I took side streets since I know the area well, and arrived a minute earlier than the Tesla had predicted, and while it was more involved taking side streets, it was more pleasurable than sitting in jammed freeway traffic (probably an accident).

I feel it's important for an EV to have really good navigation, since on road trips you rely on the navigation not just to get to there the quickest, most painless way, but also to schedule your charging stops. Otherwise it takes two people - one to drive and one to use the phone to find the right charging stops. WIth my upcoming GGT's 450ish mile range (5 seats, small wheels) many of our trips won't need an en-route charging stop anymore, so there's that to consider as well.

I have to say that SoCal HERE navigation has been in my experience exactly the same or better than Google Maps navigation. So much so that, I stopped comparing and just default to the Lucid nav. On the occasion I do check against GMaps, the navigation route is exactly the same.