Tinker Toy Lucid AGT - unlocked potential

[bassem]

I am reflecting upon the possibilities of an out of warranty AGT, where I would be able to evaluate different battery pack options as competing technologies enter the market place. While I understand that this may be frowned upon by the manufacturer and probably has the software locked before allowing any such drastic changes. My understanding from my Tesla manufacturing days is that the physical connection components after de-energizing the vehicle are not overtly complicated with the right tools and set up.

Think of it in the sense of working on a classic car with minor tweaks to unleash the coveted 1000+ mile range

 

[Rogue]

I reached out to this company with no response: https://one.ai/

Maybe you will have more luck. I presume this is the battery pack you are referencing. While I am not sure what the exact trade-offs are, my thoughts were potentially less torque and performance for half the weight to give better handling.

 

[segbrk]

I would love to see it. And yeah, it is simple to disconnect HV to make tinkering safe(r). Do keep in mind that Lucid's packaging is insanely tight, so it may be harder to swap certain things out because there simply isn't space, or because the shapes are nonstandard in order to jigsaw together. But yeah, please do, this "EVs mean the end of tinkering" BS needs to go. I'd be excited to follow along. Be safe.

 

[bassem]

It would follow the lucid schematics of the battery packaging except for the refrigerant and heating system, where by you’d custom make the connectors and make sure the delivered the same performance. Hard part is getting the blessing in to the battery management system. Truth is humans will always innovate and find ways to tweak. Having said that there is a cost but yes it’s doable.

 

[bassem]

I reached out to this company with no response: https://one.ai/

Maybe you will have more luck. I presume this is the battery pack you are referencing. While I am not sure what the exact trade-offs are, my thoughts were potentially less torque and performance for half the weight to give better handling.

Thank you for the tip, this gives me a lead to follow up with.

 

[Rogue]

I think you can find details on the max kWh usage of the motors in one of the videos for the different trims. Wikipedia is showing numbers that may or may not be accurate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_Air#Models).

The smaller battery pack doesn't have a weight published. The Gemini says 710kg or approximately 1.5k lbs. 22 modules in the Lucid at 110 lbs. puts the pack around 2.4k lbs. That's 900 lbs. right there. That's not including the supporting battery pack encasing, but I don't know that weight and won't assume.

If the websites are correct, the Gemini only has peak power to support a Pure RWD (eg. one motor). Aries II does not have many details on weight that I can find, but it could maybe support a GT, short by 11kWh.

Let's assume the same weight though given a lack of info. I see the formula is .5 x mass x velocity_squared for kinetic energy. Swapping the battery packs out moves us from 5.2k lbs to 4.3k lbs. Total kinetic energy at 70mph is 1,154,856.27 J for original and 954,977.3 for One's battery pack. That's a 17% reduction in energy requirements.

Assume 118kwh gives 500 miles of EPA range. The weight loss should approximate roughly to 602 miles. 118 -> 185 kWh for Gemini gives a total theoretical range of 940 miles based on the 600 miles due to being 900lbs lighter. Battery pack is estimated to cost only around $9.5k.

 

[bassem]

I think you can find details on the max kWh usage of the motors in one of the videos for the different trims. Wikipedia is showing numbers that may or may not be accurate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_Air#Models).

The smaller battery pack doesn't have a weight published. The Gemini says 710kg or approximately 1.5k lbs. 22 modules in the Lucid at 110 lbs. puts the pack around 2.4k lbs. That's 900 lbs. right there. That's not including the supporting battery pack encasing, but I don't know that weight and won't assume.

If the websites are correct, the Gemini only has peak power to support a Pure RWD (eg. one motor). Aries II does not have many details on weight that I can find, but it could maybe support a GT, short by 11kWh.

Let's assume the same weight though given a lack of info. I see the formula is .5 x mass x velocity_squared for kinetic energy. Swapping the battery packs out moves us from 5.2k lbs to 4.3k lbs. Total kinetic energy at 70mph is 1,154,856.27 J for original and 954,977.3 for One's battery pack. That's a 17% reduction in energy requirements.

Assume 118kwh gives 500 miles of EPA range. The weight loss should approximate roughly to 602 miles. 118 -> 185 kWh for Gemini gives a total theoretical range of 940 miles based on the 600 miles due to being 900lbs lighter. Battery pack is estimated to cost only around $9.5k.

Great info and quick thinking indeed; I would lean towards allowing a buffer of 10% between max draw of the dual motors and the battery delivery which points to a need for a battery of a much higher density even if we stayed at the 2.4k lbs weight, if the weight is less, then that’s just icing on the cake. I will email different vendors to see if there is anything out there that can match our requirements. While it may not be scalabe at mass, it would be fun to demonstrate that you can take Lucid beyond 1000 miles while still enjoying the incredible design and interior cabin comforts.

My only caveat is that the cooling and or heating system have to match the new battery cell requirements and their energy draw is negligible. My days at Tesla showed me that the system is not simply battery modules lumped together, there are mulitple secondary and tertiary systems that make a battery pack function within normal operating ranges along with the emergency explosive disconnects in the event of a collision. The Battery Control units will be critical in understanding all the inputs required, so thanks for tinkering with the ECU.

 

[borski]

I could not love this thread more. I’m so excited for more tinkering. Be safe.

 

[bassem]

Does Lucid have internships for adults that genuinely wish to learn the insides of the car ? This would be a great starting point for understanding the systems in place, so as to learn from Lucid’s engineering logic for battery systems.

 

[borski]

Does Lucid have internships for adults that genuinely wish to learn the insides of the car ? This would be a great starting point for understanding the systems in place, so as to learn from Lucid’s engineering logic for battery systems.

I doubt it, but I love this idea.

 

[Rogue]

Great info and quick thinking indeed; I would lean towards allowing a buffer of 10% between max draw of the dual motors and the battery delivery which points to a need for a battery of a much higher density even if we stayed at the 2.4k lbs weight, if the weight is less, then that’s just icing on the cake. I will email different vendors to see if there is anything out there that can match our requirements. While it may not be scalabe at mass, it would be fun to demonstrate that you can take Lucid beyond 1000 miles while still enjoying the incredible design and interior cabin comforts.

My only caveat is that the cooling and or heating system have to match the new battery cell requirements and their energy draw is negligible. My days at Tesla showed me that the system is not simply battery modules lumped together, there are mulitple secondary and tertiary systems that make a battery pack function within normal operating ranges along with the emergency explosive disconnects in the event of a collision. The Battery Control units will be critical in understanding all the inputs required, so thanks for tinkering with the ECU.

Battery chemistry trade-offs are going to be a huge part of this.

How fast can we charge with the new battery? What is the optimal operating temperature? What is the rate of discharge for the batteries? What are the total number of cycles estimated for the battery packs?

Another part of this is going to be compatibility as you have mentioned. Lucid curves their battery pack to increase aerodynamic efficiency. Software is going to be another huge component and likely require extensive hours of backwards engineering without aid from Lucid. Reaching out to Tesla battery repair shops may be a good start on how they do it and maybe a partner moving forward for the effort. I imagine they would love to claim first to be able to repair/replace a Lucid battery as a third party vendor.

The ability to modify the car is going to be the largest blocker in my opinion. Are we going to have to fight in a court system similar to the Tesla front in order for the right to repair and right to modify the cars? Lucid has ground their heels in every time I've asked for instructions/manual to check on issues myself.