Heat Pump Technology

[rodairio]

Has anybody seen any detailed information about the Lucid Heat Pump Technology? I assumed there was a small compressor somewhere that worked like the heat pump in a house but on a smaller scale. When I inquired at the studio I was told that the heat pump is this tiny element attached to the propulsion unit (circled in red in picture). I question how a unit that small can produce any kind of meaningful effect, but I also can't doubt Lucid given what they have done to improve power to weight in their motor. Does anybody know how well this heat pump works, or have any more info about its tech?

 

[Blue Lectroid]

Has anybody seen any detailed information about the Lucid Heat Pump Technology? I assumed there was a small compressor somewhere that worked like the heat pump in a house but on a smaller scale. When I inquired at the studio I was told that the heat pump is this tiny element attached to the propulsion unit (circled in red in picture). I question how a unit that small can produce any kind of meaningful effect, but I also can't doubt Lucid given what they have done to improve power to weight in their motor. Does anybody know how well this heat pump works, or have any more info about its tech?View attachment 25640

That is NOT the heat pump that heats / cools the car. That is purely the pump that circulates coolant through the inverter IIRC from Eric Bach’s Tech Talk in Inverters…

 

[Lucken]

My understanding is that the heat pump doesn’t make a huge difference, but a noticeable difference in cold weather.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

My understanding is that the heat pump doesn’t make a huge difference, but a noticeable difference in cold weather.

I think that is incorrect. The typical difference in range reduction in EV’s (all other things being equal) during cold weather with heat on is roughly a 30%-35% drop with electro resistive heat and 15% -20% drop with a heat pump. On an AGT that’s 50-75 miles difference…

 

[Pragmatic]

Depending the strategy used between drivetrain, power electronics and passenger, the biggest gains will be when it is between 30 and 60 outside. At less than 30F the efficiency of the heat pump approach that of resistance heat. The exact crossover will depend on how they utilize waste heat and which refrigerant they use.

 

[rodairio]

That is NOT the heat pump that heats / cools the car. That is purely the pump that circulates coolant through the inverter IIRC from Eric Bach’s Tech Talk in Inverters…

That is NOT the heat pump that heats / cools the car. That is purely the pump that circulates coolant through the inverter IIRC from Eric Bach’s Tech Talk in Inverters…

Thank you, that makes a lot more sense

 

[rodairio]

Depending the strategy used between drivetrain, power electronics and passenger, the biggest gains will be when it is between 30 and 60 outside. At less than 30F the efficiency of the heat pump approach that of resistance heat. The exact crossover will depend on how they utilize waste heat and which refrigerant they use.

This also makes sense, but I also think we are all fishing around for actual data on what the Lucid Air heat pump performance data or specs are. Home heat pumps have very well publicized curves, of course because they have to. But it would be interesting to know if Lucid's heat pump is exceptional (like the motor is), just ok (maybe like the software LOL), or merely a marketing tool.

 

[Pragmatic]

The heat pump is likely what the supplier (Mahle?) manufactures. Not sure what refrigerant is used. Tesla started with 134a (except in Europe where environmentally it would not fly) Tesla is now (I believe) using R1234yf.
With efficiency and environmental concerns I would hope Lucid would innovate here.

 

[fisheral]

One of my biggest Lucid regrets is not waiting for the 2025 model year to get the heat pump. Seeing range loss of 40-50% in colder weather.

 

[Lucken]

I think that is incorrect. The typical difference in range reduction in EV’s (all other things being equal) during cold weather with heat on is roughly a 30%-35% drop with electro resistive heat and 15% -20% drop with a heat pump. On an AGT that’s 50-75 miles difference…

I think that’s still conjecture. My recollection with previous EVs that introduced heat pumps in the same cars that previously didn’t have one, the range increase was noticeable but not earth-shattering. Of course our definitions of ‘noticeable’ and ‘earth-shattering’ may be different. A 10% increase is certainly nice, but not one that would make me run out and replace an EV.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

I think that’s still conjecture. My recollection with previous EVs that introduced heat pumps in the same cars that previously didn’t have one, the range increase was noticeable but not earth-shattering. Of course our definitions of ‘noticeable’ and ‘earth-shattering’ may be different. A 10% increase is certainly nice, but not one that would make me run out and replace an EV.

Replace? Absolutely not. Would I, were I to have a 2024 or earlier AGT, replace it with a 2025 just to get the heat pump? Heck no! That said, it’s certainly great IMHO to get that extra 50 - 75 miles of range…

 

[Lucken]

Replace? Absolutely not. Would I, were I to have a 2024 or earlier AGT, replace it with a 2025 just to get the heat pump? Heck no! That said, it’s certainly great IMHO to get that extra 50 - 75 miles of range…

Absolutely, if that’s what the heat pump is actually contributing to an increase in range. My point is that until we see at least a semblance of a controlled test with similar cars, with and without the heat pump, driven under the same conditions, the magnitude of the increase is still conjecture. I like to see scientific testing that backs up any claims. I know that even cars with heat pumps can see very large hits in range. My i5 has a heat pump and I see very significant drops in cold weather range.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

Absolutely, if that’s what the heat pump is actually contributing to an increase in range. My point is that until we see at least a semblance of a controlled test with similar cars, with and without the heat pump, driven under the same conditions, the magnitude of the increase is still conjecture.

I am basing this on several tech-related articles I read back when Tesla switched to heat pumps in the Model 3’s, combined with having access to and regularly driving both a pre and post heat pump Model 3 (mine was pre and my dad’s was post) so, yes, some of this is conjecture, certainly for the Air. That said, I am averaging 3.88 miles / kWh in my 25 AGT over its first 500 miles and that includes lots of time in low 30’s temps and rain. In the one day I was able to drive on dry roads and 50+ degree temps, I averaged over 5 miles / kWh…

And we do know that the 2025’s are more efficient than earlier models. Although there are multiple reasons for that, the heat pump is supposedly the single most important.

 

[Lucken]

Perhaps someone will run controlled tests, but I guess with other improvements in efficiency it may be hard to isolate the contribution of the heat pump alone. I will say with a lifetime efficiency of over 4, I’m not complaining, but certainly cold weather has its impact.

 

[borski]

And we do know that the 2025’s are more efficient than earlier models. Although there are multiple reasons for that, the heat pump is supposedly the single most important.

The new battery cells also make a big difference; that's part of the reason the capacity of the GT got upped to 118kWh just like the DE and GT-P instead of the old 112kWh capacity of the pre-2025 GTs.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

The new battery cells also make a big difference; that's part of the reason the capacity of the GT got upped to 118kWh just like the DE and GT-P instead of the old 112kWh capacity of the pre-2025 GTs.

Yes, it is a slightly different (and more efficient) chemistry…

 

[rodairio]

The new battery cells also make a big difference; that's part of the reason the capacity of the GT got upped to 118kWh just like the DE and GT-P instead of the old 112kWh capacity of the pre-2025 GTs.

This is all great insight thank you. It seems to be the case that we all believe the addition of the heat pump to be a very significant improvement in cold weather efficiency, and yet we have no real information from Lucid that actually underpins our belief, and no way to test it ourselves. That's a little surprising, would love to hear more from Lucid on this topic (especially given the polar vortex many of us are now feeling!)

 

[Sid432]

Perhaps some one who has 25 AGT can collab with @Blue Lectroid for tbe controlled test. Anyone up for it in NJ?

 

[Lucken]

It’s interesting, my i5 with a heat pump seems to suffer a greater efficiency loss in cold weather than my Lucid with no heat pump. Two different cars, but interesting nonetheless IMO.

 

[Blue Lectroid]

Perhaps some one who has 25 AGT can collab with @Blue Lectroid for tbe controlled test. Anyone up for it in NJ?

I’d be game. I have a 25 AGT, we’d need someone local with an earlier non heat pump model…