General view on Atmos

[rfc805]

It's entirely possible, but it's strange that some of them sound fine, or even good. Could also maybe be a bug in the Lucid Tidal app?

 

[DreamTour]

I am totally sold on Atmos at 2.5.0. You have to find the right masters: A well mastered track can do things that just can't be done in stereo, and that's even without gimmicky effects / moving sound objects. If you take something as simple as a small ensemble (4 singers OR 4 instruments) the harmonies you experience are on a different level because of where they are in space.

Having a significantly upgraded aftermarket system also helps too, but Atmos wasn't nearly as interesting until after 2.5.0 with the same aftermarket speakers, so that points to the upmixing / tuning being improved significantly.

 

[borski]

I doubt its a Dolby requirement as they are not even that strict with their studio setups. Also since Polestar puts speakers in the headrest and other cars implementation seem to be completely different, that tells me that Dolby probably doesn't have strict rules on implementation and set up. I don't think reflections are the issue here as bi-polar designs are supported at home and that means a lot of reflections.

If you changed the balance, it would no longer be Atmos, and Dolby would not allow it. Receivers require certification, not speakers or speaker placement; sorry if I was unclear.

Atmos is object based data as opposed to channel based data. What happens is the receiver interprets the data and is able to send it to the required speaker based on the sound’s location within the virtual world of the file.

“An object is an audio channel that also contains metadata in the form of X, Y and Z coordinates, which makes exact positioning in the room possible. This means that loudspeakers that previously only functioned within a bed can be controlled individually, allowing signals to be localized more sharply and precisely.

The decision as to which loudspeakers a signal will sound from is only made at the respective playback location. Until then, all audio channels and the corresponding metadata are packed in a container. Since there is no predefined assignment to speakers, this concept is arbitrarily scalable and enables playback on different systems equally.

To play a Dolby Atmos file, a device capable of doing so is needed that knows the speaker configuration at the respective location. The device that decodes the Dolby Atmos file is also called a renderer by Dolby. It unpacks the signals and places them in space based on their metadata. Accordingly, the vectorial direction from which a sound is mapped is the same in every room. The physical speakers from which the signal is reproduced depend on the speaker configuration and differ from room to room.“

More here: https://sonofloat.com/en/channel-based-vs-object-based-audio-format/

 

[ccarroz]

If you changed the balance, it would no longer be Atmos, and Dolby would not allow it. Receivers require certification, not speakers or speaker placement; sorry if I was unclear.

Atmos is object based data as opposed to channel based data. What happens is the receiver interprets the data and is able to send it to the required speaker based on the sound’s location within the virtual world of the file.

“An object is an audio channel that also contains metadata in the form of X, Y and Z coordinates, which makes exact positioning in the room possible. This means that loudspeakers that previously only functioned within a bed can be controlled individually, allowing signals to be localized more sharply and precisely.

The decision as to which loudspeakers a signal will sound from is only made at the respective playback location. Until then, all audio channels and the corresponding metadata are packed in a container. Since there is no predefined assignment to speakers, this concept is arbitrarily scalable and enables playback on different systems equally.

To play a Dolby Atmos file, a device capable of doing so is needed that knows the speaker configuration at the respective location. The device that decodes the Dolby Atmos file is also called a renderer by Dolby. It unpacks the signals and places them in space based on their metadata. Accordingly, the vectorial direction from which a sound is mapped is the same in every room. The physical speakers from which the signal is reproduced depend on the speaker configuration and differ from room to room.“

More here: https://sonofloat.com/en/channel-based-vs-object-based-audio-format/

The balance setting will not work, but call that out again leads us to one of our problems(probably). We are used to having the balance change option in cars and how that functions. Clearly atmos and the way car balance works can not function together, but that is how we are used to things working in a car, since its all channel stereo. What I am trying to get at, and or feel we need is the control for each individual speaker distance and level. Distance for the height speakers. Here is the thing, while Atmos can use objects in the mix and is a object based codec, it is still channel based(DTS-X is full object) at the end of the day and the mix could be mixed static. My theory is the songs that sound good in our car probably uses more static mixing vs objects and due to the tuning in the car the mixing that is done via objects come out low or are inaudible due to where the speakers are measured to be in the car. If the mix leverages a lot of objects and the object is intended to be directly overhead and the head unit is saying we don't have a speaker around that area, the net result is we don't hear much of that objects sound.

 

[borski]

The balance setting will not work, but call that out again leads us to one of our problems(probably). We are used to having the balance change option in cars and how that functions. Clearly atmos and the way car balance works can not function together, but that is how we are used to things working in a car, since its all channel stereo. What I am trying to get at, and or feel we need is the control for each individual speaker distance and level. Distance for the height speakers. Here is the thing, while Atmos can use objects in the mix and is a object based codec, it is still channel based(DTS-X is full object) at the end of the day and the mix could be mixed static. My theory is the songs that sound good in our car probably uses more static mixing vs objects and due to the tuning in the car the mixing that is done via objects come out low or are inaudible due to where the speakers are measured to be in the car. If the mix leverages a lot of objects and the object is intended to be directly overhead and the head unit is saying we don't have a speaker around that area, the net result is we don't hear much of that objects sound.

There is Atmos height virtualization, but frankly it's trash and it doesn't effectively simulate Atmos audio in a room and make it appear as if you've got real Atmos speakers setup in the space.

Atmos is a digital processing technology that, as part of recording, can specify the physical location of individual sounds in the audible space.

So with Atmos (and DTS:X) is you have a base audio track, like 5.1 or 7.1, then you have the object audio with it, in this case Atmos, and what goes with that object audio is metadata that comes along with it, which the AVR/Processor uses to decode and assign those objects to speakers within the setup.

So think of the Atmos audio objects as additional audio tracks, but instead of being assigned to dedicated speaker locations, they're dynamic and can be on the fly assigned to speaker locations based on the movement of the audio.

So say you have a 7.x.4 Atmos setup, with top front and top rear in-ceiling speakers. When you're playing back an Atmos audio track from a movie, the AVR gets the meta data of the Atmos track and will then take the object audio and assign it to the configured speakers as the track plays.

So say it's in the front left upper quadrant, the audio gets played back in your top front left speaker which is assigned on top fronts in the AVR.

Basically an over simplification but you get the idea.

That means that in the case that an object is directly overhead, the receiver will use the height speakers to place the sound where it would be, precisely *because* it knows exactly where every speaker is, their power, etc.

I’m not sure what you mean by “mixed static” but if a track is mixed in stereo, or even in 5.1/7.1, it is not Atmos.

 

[ccarroz]

I’m not sure what you mean by “mixed static” but if a track is mixed in stereo, or even in 5.1/7.1, it is not Atmos.

Mixed static means instead of ever sound being added to a object that can move around in space, we say this sound goes to the rear right speaker like a normal surround mix.

 

[GratefulMed]

There is Atmos height virtualization, but frankly it's trash and it doesn't effectively simulate Atmos audio in a room and make it appear as if you've got real Atmos speakers setup in the space.

Atmos is a digital processing technology that, as part of recording, can specify the physical location of individual sounds in the audible space.

So with Atmos (and DTS:X) is you have a base audio track, like 5.1 or 7.1, then you have the object audio with it, in this case Atmos, and what goes with that object audio is metadata that comes along with it, which the AVR/Processor uses to decode and assign those objects to speakers within the setup.

So think of the Atmos audio objects as additional audio tracks, but instead of being assigned to dedicated speaker locations, they're dynamic and can be on the fly assigned to speaker locations based on the movement of the audio.

So say you have a 7.x.4 Atmos setup, with top front and top rear in-ceiling speakers. When you're playing back an Atmos audio track from a movie, the AVR gets the meta data of the Atmos track and will then take the object audio and assign it to the configured speakers as the track plays.

So say it's in the front left upper quadrant, the audio gets played back in your top front left speaker which is assigned on top fronts in the AVR.

Basically an over simplification but you get the idea.

That means that in the case that an object is directly overhead, the receiver will use the height speakers to place the sound where it would be, precisely *because* it knows exactly where every speaker is, their power, etc.

I’m not sure what you mean by “mixed static” but if a track is mixed in stereo, or even in 5.1/7.1, it is not Atmos.

And this is exactly the gist of my initial query - if I’m not wrong, ATMOS files are generated with respect to a listener in the center of the sound as would be true if you were in a listening room or your living room. Unless Lucid can modify that, we as listeners from the drivers seat are far forward, far to the left, and too high from the “sweet spot”. Do you think somehow this is accounted for in our audio setup?

 

[ccarroz]

And this is exactly the gist of my initial query - if I’m not wrong, ATMOS files are generated with respect to a listener in the center of the sound as would be true if you were in a listening room or your living room. Unless Lucid can modify that, we as listeners from the drivers seat are far forward, far to the left, and too high from the “sweet spot”. Do you think somehow this is accounted for in our audio setup?

Yes, that is a thing with the Atmos set up. It would be nice if there was two settings, one for tuning as if the front seats are the only known seating positions and a second for all seat.

 

[borski]

And this is exactly the gist of my initial query - if I’m not wrong, ATMOS files are generated with respect to a listener in the center of the sound as would be true if you were in a listening room or your living room. Unless Lucid can modify that, we as listeners from the drivers seat are far forward, far to the left, and too high from the “sweet spot”. Do you think somehow this is accounted for in our audio setup?

I assume this is true, but don't have confirmation. That may be why the soundstage sounds more expansive from the rear seats though, so that makes sense to me.

 

[ccarroz]

Here is a pic of Denon/Marantz seat placement set up for speaker measurements. We just need a option to switch to a two seat(front seats) measurement option vs all 5 seats.

 

[ccarroz]

So I was off a bit on my assumptions. I have only had my car for about 3 months now. I checked myself and saw that I did have the bubble tape added to my car. When I got the 2.5 update, I felt there was a noticable difference to the base in the car and things seemed to be a touch louder. Thus, I assumed the upgrade was fully unlocked in my car. Well lucid reached out and set up the mobile tech to come out and push the upgrade to me. I really didn't see it but according to the tech the bubble tape was not put in correctly/ poorly. So he replaced it and then enabled the update. Huge difference. Before the update I felt that panning was non-existent as in something like floating around you and that is definitely noticeable now. So I would highly recommend checking with lucid about the update and then see how you feel about the way Atmos sounds of the car. I still feel like there's a good deal of tuning that would make things better here. Some songs that have vocals mainly coming from the center channel seem way. Overpowered to the point it almost sounds distorted. Check out Taylor Swift. Never getting back together and you'll hear what I'm talking about with the center channel. Megan, the stallion body also has it and it's interesting since that was one of the best sounding songs before the update . I'm still hearing the abrupt cut in and out on some of the height channels. It's almost like those speakers have like a certain zone and as soon as an object goes outside of it, it just disappears versus like slowly move away. The best example is the violin parts of call me maybe. The violin pan seems to just like like abruptly cut in and out to where it's almost jarring. And that effect is definitely not present in a home setup. Past that love the update. I still wish there was ways that we could tune some of the levels on the individual speakers or adjust the perceived distance of the speaker in the Atmos seat config to bring out what my/other users ears like. I would love to get my hands on the config file for this thing to see how they have things set up. I also wonder what they change that made such a dramatic difference, so I guess I would also love to get my hands on the old config file as well.

 

[Lucken]

Some songs that have vocals mainly coming from the center channel seem way. Overpowered to the point it almost sounds distorted. Check out Taylor Swift. Never getting back together and you'll hear what I'm talking about with the center channel.

Please, don’t make me!

 

[JGard18]

Please, don’t make me!

Not to completely diverge into a music tastes discussion, but man, you're missing out! Honestly. I'm a long time punk/rock/alternative music listener (also ska, which sometimes I'm afraid to admit). A number of years ago Taylor Swift did a post-race concert at F1 in Austin, which I went to with my wife, and I was hooked. This woman puts on a great show, but honestly, she's just very talented. Her discography is varied enough there's probably an album or two for everybody. I don't care for her first two albums, but very much enjoy the rest (but also hate her latest album). I would say, don't poo-poo it unless you've given it a good listen!

 

[borski]

Not to completely diverge into a music tastes discussion, but man, you're missing out! Honestly. I'm a long time punk/rock/alternative music listener (also ska, which sometimes I'm afraid to admit). A number of years ago Taylor Swift did a post-race concert at F1 in Austin, which I went to with my wife, and I was hooked. This woman puts on a great show, but honestly, she's just very talented. Her discography is varied enough there's probably an album or two for everybody. I don't care for her first two albums, but very much enjoy the rest (but also hate her latest album). I would say, don't poo-poo it unless you've given it a good listen!

It’s true. Her music has changed significantly over the years, as has she.

She’s not my normal cup of tea, but I have no choice but to respect her artistry and talent. To not do so would make me a liar and a hypocrite.

 

[ccarroz]

Not to completely diverge into a music tastes discussion, but man, you're missing out! Honestly. I'm a long time punk/rock/alternative music listener (also ska, which sometimes I'm afraid to admit). A number of years ago Taylor Swift did a post-race concert at F1 in Austin, which I went to with my wife, and I was hooked. This woman puts on a great show, but honestly, she's just very talented. Her discography is varied enough there's probably an album or two for everybody. I don't care for her first two albums, but very much enjoy the rest (but also hate her latest album). I would say, don't poo-poo it unless you've given it a good listen!

meh, each to their own. It was not my thing until my wife went to a concert, played her music non-stop and then my 4 year old daughter got into it and it turned into fun for the whole family. 22 allways was a guilty pleasure of mine though..... about two months after that, my daughter came to me crying and I was like what is wrong sweet pea? She said that she was crying because she has never been out of the country before....... I was like your fucking 4..... where do you think you want to go? She wanted to go to Africa.... I had a bunch of friends I have not seen in years in Japan so we took her to see TS at the Tokyo dome. Put on a glitter beard and it was one hell of a show.

I love my EDM though and am a big base head normally. Subfocus and Chase and Status have some good Atoms albums if interested.

 

[Westcory]

Prior to 2.5.0, I had been exclusivity listening to YouTube Music via Apple CarPlay. I had tried Tidal and Dolby Atmos, but I wasn't impressed enough to keep it. Now, after the 2.5.0 update (along wit the TSC completed for the footwell speakers), I've subscribed to Tidal to try it out again.

In a nutshell, some Atmos songs are now truly a revelation! Effects can dance around you and voices, particularly in groups with multiple singers, certainly appear to float in different points in space, as do certain instruments and effects. The improved bass of 2.5.0 really helped to fill out songs that were previously clear, but lacked presence, and also improved vocals coming from the center channel which were previously more muted relative to the other channels. I'm quite happy with the update and may be keeping Tidal for a while.

However, this seems to truly depend on the care of the sound engineering for each song. Even within the same album, some songs are completely unimpressive--dull and lifeless with little additional clarity or immersion compared to stereo. Other songs, even on the same album (oddly), can truly shine, however. I would say to be sure for anyone using Tidal and Atmos to be sure try a broad variety of songs across multiple artists and even across different songs within the same

I have had Tidal before and liked the quality for my home setup, especially with better equipment. After not exactly loving the experience with Apple Music and CarPlay, I decided to get Tidal again just for the car…….Im actually not that impressed. A lot of the Atmos tracks have vocals taking a back seat to the instruments. I am a former car audio enthusiast so I might have different expectations than others. There is some tuning that is still required, even after the update, especially in the upper mid range window.

The idea of having a sub isn’t for boom but it’s using the right tool for the job. There is a reason most people will cap a normal woofer at 80-100hz. Having that back shelf woofer trying to do the lows is like trying to use a flat head screw driver for a Philips head screw……you might get the screw out but it likely won’t be seamless.

 

[Cosmo Cruz]

One of the downsides of high fidelity is it will show everything: a bad source, a bad mix ... a bad listening environment ... bad musicians... People who have never heard real hi-fi might be surprised to learn about compression and bass-extended mixes. Sound engineers do this for low-fi systems, like radios and car audio. Once you have heard a really good audio system tuned to the (hopefully acoustically treated) room, that has been mixed by an engineer who's going for the best music and not necessary trying to make it work for an everyday system, you will forever "hear" a bad source, system, mix.

I had a neighbor, Lloyd Walker, who invited me to listen to his "test system". It was vinyl and vacuum tubes = all built by him. Every wire in the system had it's own Faraday cage wrapped around it. The dual monoblock amps ( he built them) were water-cooled. His turntables, and I mean his as in he built them, retailed for ... a lot.

A system with Walker Audio components: everything but the speakers was built by Lloyd. Note the Faraday cages on the speaker wires.
I wish I could post the photos of his test-bed system. It was other-worldly.

below: Lloyd tweaking a customer's system with Walker Audio components.

I took some photos of his "test bed system" in his home and posted them on an audiophile website. He was pissed and make me take them down.
I still have them but will not post them out of respect. Probably non-audiophiles and non-scientists would cringe at the "messiness" ... components going in and out as he tweaked; wires with Faraday cages suspended from the ceiling like a metallic spider on acid had taken over the room, ragged pieces of acoustic foam hanging from the walls and ceiling... I guess it hurt his business for "status" customers to see how an obsessive genius gets there. Some rich folk care more about how their toys look. Some audiophiles are more into the gear than the music. I actually heard his test bed system. I have never recovered. I dumped my CD collection and started buying one-off vinyl test pressings and half-speed masters. I don't even know what that means, but somebody will sell them to you, and some idiots will pay for them. We were chasing the absolute sound...whatever that is.

He put on a record he found at a yard sale.

I bolted straight up of of the chair. My arm hair was erect. I was in full fight-or-flight mode. When he left the room for a moment I was looking under the acoustic foam for the surround speakers. Nope... all he had was a pair of humble Merlins.

way out into the room. It was just stereo. It sounded "live", like there were musicians in the room, only not in the room, like you were at their venue. It was scary good. I kept looking at the Merlins = they didn't even have a proper set of woofers. There was no sub-woofer at all.

After a few minutes of listening, he got up and scissor-cut the band connecting the drive motor (he built that too) and the 90 lb lead/epoxy platter ( he built that too, and he built the stands and the acoustic dampers = he built everything but the speakers and the cartridge).

one version of Lloyd Walker's Proscenium series "record players".

There was no pitch change. It sounded exactly the same. He loved to do this for potential customers. The platter was spinning away without any power: a friction-less air bearing. His customers loved this trick. I admit, it was impressive as heck.

one of my neighbors and Lloyd Walker.


Unfortunately bass-heavy mixes are so popular now it's "normal". I don't consider this music as much as a stunt to cover up
"musicians" who are not that good...but I'm old and like to hear the spit in the brass / on the reed, where the drummer caresses the snare with the brush, early Joni Mitchell's astonishing range, the guitarist's fingers squeaking on the strings. This is hair-raising. This is emotional and scary-good.
This is music.

Atmos is a stunt too. It's a blow your mind stunt, and I really like what the engineers have done. Every now and then I still go to live concerts, but it's not as emotional as a good mix on a good system in a good room. I have not heard the standard audio in the Lucid. I hear it's not so good.
Shame. I like the ATMOS mixes so much that I spend hours listening to them in my Lucid GT. No shit. I'm sorry to read not everyone is impressed.

 

[GratefulMed]

Cosmo Cruz - that sounds fabulous. I’ve never had the pleasure to listen on the system of that quality. But I think a lot of of these posts are missing the point of my original post and starting this thread. Dolby Atmos can sound amazing. The audio engineering is designed to give a particular sound stage in the car is a tuned to deliver that. But the whole thing was meant to be listened to in a room where you are sitting dead center and surrounded by the speakers to yield the desired effect. It’s great that people love to sit in the center backseat and enjoy all that Dolby Atmos has to offer. But the fact is that we drive this car far more than we sit and listen in it. Most of the music listening, in fact all of it for most of us, is done from the front left driver seat very close to the pillar effect speaker. Nowhere near the center of the soundstage. That means you are listening to a mix that is not close to that intended by Dolby mix. Which can really take away from the sound quality. With regular stereo, you have the same thing but it can be modified by how you choose to balance your speakers. With Dolby Atmos, it cannot. it seems like something that has been retrofit into a car rather than designed for a car. One day, I hope that there will be a truly car oriented Dolby Atmos mix where we will be able to modify the balance to create a focal point closer to the driver seat. That would require some form of dynamic mix rather than a static mix. These are first world problems and, overall, I really love the sound of the stereo. But I have to say a good stereo mix on SSP sounds better to me than Dolby Atmos. Seems gimmicky to me.

 

[Cosmo Cruz]

Agree with what you say. I don't listen to music much when I'm driving...too much noise and distraction for refined music and I tend to speed when R+R is on. I'm mostly a pod cast guy when car-tripping.
I might be a bit "medicated" when I'm in the Lucid in the wee hours, in my garage, listening to ATMOS tracks. I thought I was going to read the owner's manual while listening, but the music is so engaging I forget all about it. If you can't read it's good music playback.

I Agree that ATMOS is a "gimmick", but a really cool gimmick that likely compensates for such a terrible listening environment. Glad to see you appreciate sound-staging and sweet spots ( "There are many here among us, who know that life is not a joke"). I never really "got" what a stereo mix can do until I heard Lloyd Walker's system = you really don't need all those surround speakers. In a car, you have to expect compromises to hi-fi. I think Lucid has done an outstanding job tuning the audio to the car environment. But you are right; I should try a late-night session with normal stereo mixes, even though my tinnitus and high-frequency roll-off belies the effort

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