General view on Atmos

[rfc805]

It's entirely possible, but it's strange that some of them sound fine, or even good. Could also maybe be a bug in the Lucid Tidal app?

 

[DreamTour]

I am totally sold on Atmos at 2.5.0. You have to find the right masters: A well mastered track can do things that just can't be done in stereo, and that's even without gimmicky effects / moving sound objects. If you take something as simple as a small ensemble (4 singers OR 4 instruments) the harmonies you experience are on a different level because of where they are in space.

Having a significantly upgraded aftermarket system also helps too, but Atmos wasn't nearly as interesting until after 2.5.0 with the same aftermarket speakers, so that points to the upmixing / tuning being improved significantly.

 

[borski]

I doubt its a Dolby requirement as they are not even that strict with their studio setups. Also since Polestar puts speakers in the headrest and other cars implementation seem to be completely different, that tells me that Dolby probably doesn't have strict rules on implementation and set up. I don't think reflections are the issue here as bi-polar designs are supported at home and that means a lot of reflections.

If you changed the balance, it would no longer be Atmos, and Dolby would not allow it. Receivers require certification, not speakers or speaker placement; sorry if I was unclear.

Atmos is object based data as opposed to channel based data. What happens is the receiver interprets the data and is able to send it to the required speaker based on the sound’s location within the virtual world of the file.

“An object is an audio channel that also contains metadata in the form of X, Y and Z coordinates, which makes exact positioning in the room possible. This means that loudspeakers that previously only functioned within a bed can be controlled individually, allowing signals to be localized more sharply and precisely.

The decision as to which loudspeakers a signal will sound from is only made at the respective playback location. Until then, all audio channels and the corresponding metadata are packed in a container. Since there is no predefined assignment to speakers, this concept is arbitrarily scalable and enables playback on different systems equally.

To play a Dolby Atmos file, a device capable of doing so is needed that knows the speaker configuration at the respective location. The device that decodes the Dolby Atmos file is also called a renderer by Dolby. It unpacks the signals and places them in space based on their metadata. Accordingly, the vectorial direction from which a sound is mapped is the same in every room. The physical speakers from which the signal is reproduced depend on the speaker configuration and differ from room to room.“

More here: https://sonofloat.com/en/channel-based-vs-object-based-audio-format/

 

[ccarroz]

If you changed the balance, it would no longer be Atmos, and Dolby would not allow it. Receivers require certification, not speakers or speaker placement; sorry if I was unclear.

Atmos is object based data as opposed to channel based data. What happens is the receiver interprets the data and is able to send it to the required speaker based on the sound’s location within the virtual world of the file.

“An object is an audio channel that also contains metadata in the form of X, Y and Z coordinates, which makes exact positioning in the room possible. This means that loudspeakers that previously only functioned within a bed can be controlled individually, allowing signals to be localized more sharply and precisely.

The decision as to which loudspeakers a signal will sound from is only made at the respective playback location. Until then, all audio channels and the corresponding metadata are packed in a container. Since there is no predefined assignment to speakers, this concept is arbitrarily scalable and enables playback on different systems equally.

To play a Dolby Atmos file, a device capable of doing so is needed that knows the speaker configuration at the respective location. The device that decodes the Dolby Atmos file is also called a renderer by Dolby. It unpacks the signals and places them in space based on their metadata. Accordingly, the vectorial direction from which a sound is mapped is the same in every room. The physical speakers from which the signal is reproduced depend on the speaker configuration and differ from room to room.“

More here: https://sonofloat.com/en/channel-based-vs-object-based-audio-format/

The balance setting will not work, but call that out again leads us to one of our problems(probably). We are used to having the balance change option in cars and how that functions. Clearly atmos and the way car balance works can not function together, but that is how we are used to things working in a car, since its all channel stereo. What I am trying to get at, and or feel we need is the control for each individual speaker distance and level. Distance for the height speakers. Here is the thing, while Atmos can use objects in the mix and is a object based codec, it is still channel based(DTS-X is full object) at the end of the day and the mix could be mixed static. My theory is the songs that sound good in our car probably uses more static mixing vs objects and due to the tuning in the car the mixing that is done via objects come out low or are inaudible due to where the speakers are measured to be in the car. If the mix leverages a lot of objects and the object is intended to be directly overhead and the head unit is saying we don't have a speaker around that area, the net result is we don't hear much of that objects sound.

 

[borski]

The balance setting will not work, but call that out again leads us to one of our problems(probably). We are used to having the balance change option in cars and how that functions. Clearly atmos and the way car balance works can not function together, but that is how we are used to things working in a car, since its all channel stereo. What I am trying to get at, and or feel we need is the control for each individual speaker distance and level. Distance for the height speakers. Here is the thing, while Atmos can use objects in the mix and is a object based codec, it is still channel based(DTS-X is full object) at the end of the day and the mix could be mixed static. My theory is the songs that sound good in our car probably uses more static mixing vs objects and due to the tuning in the car the mixing that is done via objects come out low or are inaudible due to where the speakers are measured to be in the car. If the mix leverages a lot of objects and the object is intended to be directly overhead and the head unit is saying we don't have a speaker around that area, the net result is we don't hear much of that objects sound.

There is Atmos height virtualization, but frankly it's trash and it doesn't effectively simulate Atmos audio in a room and make it appear as if you've got real Atmos speakers setup in the space.

Atmos is a digital processing technology that, as part of recording, can specify the physical location of individual sounds in the audible space.

So with Atmos (and DTS:X) is you have a base audio track, like 5.1 or 7.1, then you have the object audio with it, in this case Atmos, and what goes with that object audio is metadata that comes along with it, which the AVR/Processor uses to decode and assign those objects to speakers within the setup.

So think of the Atmos audio objects as additional audio tracks, but instead of being assigned to dedicated speaker locations, they're dynamic and can be on the fly assigned to speaker locations based on the movement of the audio.

So say you have a 7.x.4 Atmos setup, with top front and top rear in-ceiling speakers. When you're playing back an Atmos audio track from a movie, the AVR gets the meta data of the Atmos track and will then take the object audio and assign it to the configured speakers as the track plays.

So say it's in the front left upper quadrant, the audio gets played back in your top front left speaker which is assigned on top fronts in the AVR.

Basically an over simplification but you get the idea.

That means that in the case that an object is directly overhead, the receiver will use the height speakers to place the sound where it would be, precisely *because* it knows exactly where every speaker is, their power, etc.

I’m not sure what you mean by “mixed static” but if a track is mixed in stereo, or even in 5.1/7.1, it is not Atmos.

 

[ccarroz]

I’m not sure what you mean by “mixed static” but if a track is mixed in stereo, or even in 5.1/7.1, it is not Atmos.

Mixed static means instead of ever sound being added to a object that can move around in space, we say this sound goes to the rear right speaker like a normal surround mix.

 

[GratefulMed]

There is Atmos height virtualization, but frankly it's trash and it doesn't effectively simulate Atmos audio in a room and make it appear as if you've got real Atmos speakers setup in the space.

Atmos is a digital processing technology that, as part of recording, can specify the physical location of individual sounds in the audible space.

So with Atmos (and DTS:X) is you have a base audio track, like 5.1 or 7.1, then you have the object audio with it, in this case Atmos, and what goes with that object audio is metadata that comes along with it, which the AVR/Processor uses to decode and assign those objects to speakers within the setup.

So think of the Atmos audio objects as additional audio tracks, but instead of being assigned to dedicated speaker locations, they're dynamic and can be on the fly assigned to speaker locations based on the movement of the audio.

So say you have a 7.x.4 Atmos setup, with top front and top rear in-ceiling speakers. When you're playing back an Atmos audio track from a movie, the AVR gets the meta data of the Atmos track and will then take the object audio and assign it to the configured speakers as the track plays.

So say it's in the front left upper quadrant, the audio gets played back in your top front left speaker which is assigned on top fronts in the AVR.

Basically an over simplification but you get the idea.

That means that in the case that an object is directly overhead, the receiver will use the height speakers to place the sound where it would be, precisely *because* it knows exactly where every speaker is, their power, etc.

I’m not sure what you mean by “mixed static” but if a track is mixed in stereo, or even in 5.1/7.1, it is not Atmos.

And this is exactly the gist of my initial query - if I’m not wrong, ATMOS files are generated with respect to a listener in the center of the sound as would be true if you were in a listening room or your living room. Unless Lucid can modify that, we as listeners from the drivers seat are far forward, far to the left, and too high from the “sweet spot”. Do you think somehow this is accounted for in our audio setup?

 

[ccarroz]

And this is exactly the gist of my initial query - if I’m not wrong, ATMOS files are generated with respect to a listener in the center of the sound as would be true if you were in a listening room or your living room. Unless Lucid can modify that, we as listeners from the drivers seat are far forward, far to the left, and too high from the “sweet spot”. Do you think somehow this is accounted for in our audio setup?

Yes, that is a thing with the Atmos set up. It would be nice if there was two settings, one for tuning as if the front seats are the only known seating positions and a second for all seat.

 

[borski]

And this is exactly the gist of my initial query - if I’m not wrong, ATMOS files are generated with respect to a listener in the center of the sound as would be true if you were in a listening room or your living room. Unless Lucid can modify that, we as listeners from the drivers seat are far forward, far to the left, and too high from the “sweet spot”. Do you think somehow this is accounted for in our audio setup?

I assume this is true, but don't have confirmation. That may be why the soundstage sounds more expansive from the rear seats though, so that makes sense to me.

 

[ccarroz]

Here is a pic of Denon/Marantz seat placement set up for speaker measurements. We just need a option to switch to a two seat(front seats) measurement option vs all 5 seats.

 

[ccarroz]

So I was off a bit on my assumptions. I have only had my car for about 3 months now. I checked myself and saw that I did have the bubble tape added to my car. When I got the 2.5 update, I felt there was a noticable difference to the base in the car and things seemed to be a touch louder. Thus, I assumed the upgrade was fully unlocked in my car. Well lucid reached out and set up the mobile tech to come out and push the upgrade to me. I really didn't see it but according to the tech the bubble tape was not put in correctly/ poorly. So he replaced it and then enabled the update. Huge difference. Before the update I felt that panning was non-existent as in something like floating around you and that is definitely noticeable now. So I would highly recommend checking with lucid about the update and then see how you feel about the way Atmos sounds of the car. I still feel like there's a good deal of tuning that would make things better here. Some songs that have vocals mainly coming from the center channel seem way. Overpowered to the point it almost sounds distorted. Check out Taylor Swift. Never getting back together and you'll hear what I'm talking about with the center channel. Megan, the stallion body also has it and it's interesting since that was one of the best sounding songs before the update . I'm still hearing the abrupt cut in and out on some of the height channels. It's almost like those speakers have like a certain zone and as soon as an object goes outside of it, it just disappears versus like slowly move away. The best example is the violin parts of call me maybe. The violin pan seems to just like like abruptly cut in and out to where it's almost jarring. And that effect is definitely not present in a home setup. Past that love the update. I still wish there was ways that we could tune some of the levels on the individual speakers or adjust the perceived distance of the speaker in the Atmos seat config to bring out what my/other users ears like. I would love to get my hands on the config file for this thing to see how they have things set up. I also wonder what they change that made such a dramatic difference, so I guess I would also love to get my hands on the old config file as well.

 

[Lucken]

Some songs that have vocals mainly coming from the center channel seem way. Overpowered to the point it almost sounds distorted. Check out Taylor Swift. Never getting back together and you'll hear what I'm talking about with the center channel.

Please, don’t make me!

 

[JGard18]

Please, don’t make me!

Not to completely diverge into a music tastes discussion, but man, you're missing out! Honestly. I'm a long time punk/rock/alternative music listener (also ska, which sometimes I'm afraid to admit). A number of years ago Taylor Swift did a post-race concert at F1 in Austin, which I went to with my wife, and I was hooked. This woman puts on a great show, but honestly, she's just very talented. Her discography is varied enough there's probably an album or two for everybody. I don't care for her first two albums, but very much enjoy the rest (but also hate her latest album). I would say, don't poo-poo it unless you've given it a good listen!

 

[borski]

Not to completely diverge into a music tastes discussion, but man, you're missing out! Honestly. I'm a long time punk/rock/alternative music listener (also ska, which sometimes I'm afraid to admit). A number of years ago Taylor Swift did a post-race concert at F1 in Austin, which I went to with my wife, and I was hooked. This woman puts on a great show, but honestly, she's just very talented. Her discography is varied enough there's probably an album or two for everybody. I don't care for her first two albums, but very much enjoy the rest (but also hate her latest album). I would say, don't poo-poo it unless you've given it a good listen!

It’s true. Her music has changed significantly over the years, as has she.

She’s not my normal cup of tea, but I have no choice but to respect her artistry and talent. To not do so would make me a liar and a hypocrite.

 

[ccarroz]

Not to completely diverge into a music tastes discussion, but man, you're missing out! Honestly. I'm a long time punk/rock/alternative music listener (also ska, which sometimes I'm afraid to admit). A number of years ago Taylor Swift did a post-race concert at F1 in Austin, which I went to with my wife, and I was hooked. This woman puts on a great show, but honestly, she's just very talented. Her discography is varied enough there's probably an album or two for everybody. I don't care for her first two albums, but very much enjoy the rest (but also hate her latest album). I would say, don't poo-poo it unless you've given it a good listen!

meh, each to their own. It was not my thing until my wife went to a concert, played her music non-stop and then my 4 year old daughter got into it and it turned into fun for the whole family. 22 allways was a guilty pleasure of mine though..... about two months after that, my daughter came to me crying and I was like what is wrong sweet pea? She said that she was crying because she has never been out of the country before....... I was like your fucking 4..... where do you think you want to go? She wanted to go to Africa.... I had a bunch of friends I have not seen in years in Japan so we took her to see TS at the Tokyo dome. Put on a glitter beard and it was one hell of a show.

I love my EDM though and am a big base head normally. Subfocus and Chase and Status have some good Atoms albums if interested.