DD Pro on 3.6.4 Not Passenger Friendly

[Smorgasbord]

Finally got the chance to take a long drive, from San Jose to Lake Tahoe (Olympic Village/Incline Village) last weekend. 280 to 680 to 80, exactly the kind of drive my GGT, with the "Tahoe" interior should have been designed for.

Very disappointing.

About the only thing that consistently worked was the "adding space" when passing trucks. While sometimes the car would tell you that DD was ending soon, just as often (if not more often) it would just literally suddenly chime and give up the ghost. One time the car jerked, making everyone in the car scared and asking me "What are you doing?" Mostly, it would smoothly end and restart, but the constant chiming in and out drove my passengers crazy. Yeah, the lines on those roads aren't always perfect and there's lots of little shoulder construction areas along the way, but that's the real world and Lucid's DD damn well better handle them better.

Maybe this is yet another problem with pre-mapping. Perhaps not all of the shoulder construction areas were mapped, so seeing cones or other orange things made the car instantly turn DD Pro off so they could say I was driving if there was an accident. That ain't gonna cut it. The lanes were still open, there wasn't even a speed reduction sign that I can recall at these areas. And certainly not when some of the painted lines had faded or been paved over. Drivers figure this out and the car should, too.

I'm not asking for city/traffic light autonomy, and not asking for handling interchanges. This is the basic long-distance freeway travel. With the constant vigilance needed, it's arguable whether DD Pro is any sort of benefit at all, IMO.

PS: I sure hope the robotaxi software is completely different, and given the hardware changes I've seen, I now have no expectation of any of that coming to our vehicles.

 

[Aka-none]

Interesting the car should do better than people but I can see. And there’s a shitload of people who freak out around construction with poor lane marking. So far absolutely no ones self driving, other than, like Waymo, is something I’d fully trust my life to

 

[HC_79]

Finally got the chance to take a long drive, from San Jose to Lake Tahoe (Olympic Village/Incline Village) last weekend. 280 to 680 to 80, exactly the kind of drive my GGT, with the "Tahoe" interior should have been designed for.

Very disappointing.

About the only thing that consistently worked was the "adding space" when passing trucks. While sometimes the car would tell you that DD was ending soon, just as often (if not more often) it would just literally suddenly chime and give up the ghost. One time the car jerked, making everyone in the car scared and asking me "What are you doing?" Mostly, it would smoothly end and restart, but the constant chiming in and out drove my passengers crazy. Yeah, the lines on those roads aren't always perfect and there's lots of little shoulder construction areas along the way, but that's the real world and Lucid's DD damn well better handle them better.

Maybe this is yet another problem with pre-mapping. Perhaps not all of the shoulder construction areas were mapped, so seeing cones or other orange things made the car instantly turn DD Pro off so they could say I was driving if there was an accident. That ain't gonna cut it. The lanes were still open, there wasn't even a speed reduction sign that I can recall at these areas. And certainly not when some of the painted lines had faded or been paved over. Drivers figure this out and the car should, too.

I'm not asking for city/traffic light autonomy, and not asking for handling interchanges. This is the basic long-distance freeway travel. With the constant vigilance needed, it's arguable whether DD Pro is any sort of benefit at all, IMO.

PS: I sure hope the robotaxi software is completely different, and given the hardware changes I've seen, I now have no expectation of any of that coming to our vehicles.

You're framing the disengagement as the car dodging liability, but it's the car doing exactly what a Level 2 system is supposed to do when its inputs degrade.

Would you feel comfortable if a plane was on approach, the runway lights were out, half the markings were faded, and the pilot just left autopilot engaged because "the plane should just figure it out"? Of course not. Autopilot works because it operates inside a defined envelope with reliable references. When those references go away, the correct behavior is to hand control back to the human, and any pilot who didn't would be grounded. Nobody calls that a failure of the autopilot.

Faded lines, paved-over lines, cones on the shoulder, unmapped construction zones are the automotive version of the runway lights being out. Yes, a human driver can infer where the lane "probably" is from context. A lane-centering system that guesses at that is a system that will eventually guess wrong at 70 mph with your family in the car. I'd much rather it chime and hand off than confidently hold a lane that no longer exists.

Where I agree with you is on the handoff itself. A sudden chime with no warning, and the one jerk you described, is the actual problem. It’s why you need to be paying attention at all times but also something Lucid could get better at in predicting (hopefully)

 

[lucidnewbie24]

My use case for DD Pro is a little brake from keeping the car centered in the lane and taking over steering while I eat a sandwich I got from the rest stop. I can pay attention in both of these scenarios. When it comes to more traffic or road work, I take over because I don't trust any autonomous driving systems yet. For me, DD Pro is enough for my needs. I have a low bar lol.

 

[9point81]

Well that sucks you had a subpar experience with it but it should alert and let you know it's handing over control. Constuction zones have been hit or miss for me with it. Most of the time DD kept on moving thru but there were times I just took over bc I didn't feel comfortable to let it keep going. Those lanes tho have to be clearly marked for it to work right and I've used DD so much now that I know about where it's going to give up and I have my hands on the wheel and feet ready and sure enough, it's having to hard a time seeing the lanes and gives up. I've been pretty happy with it tho on our road trips and over time I've gotten to know where to trust it and where to take over or be ready to take over and I think you will too. Cyp at NotchEV YouTube channel has taken his Gravity across country and back and a lot of it on DD and hasn't had too many issues with it. It's not perfect but should get better with further updates. I think with time for you as well, to know it's limitations, you will get more comfortable with it. That jerk it did to you tho, that's an absolute failure on their end and your car should not ever display that type of experience for you.

 

[eelpout]

I have a similar experience going over Hwy 17 from Los Gatos to the Santa Cruz area and back (us Bay Area people will just speak amongst ourselves from this point ). DDP disengages and reengages all the time, but I wouldn't expect it not to, given the amount of construction and paint restriping that constantly happens there. I've seen Teslas, partying on with FSD, phantom brake up there on occasion in the lane next to me. Quite unsettling. It is a test area for ADAS sensors and ML, I'm told by people in the biz, for a reason.

I don't think DDP and the nav systems have much to say to each other right now, but if a planned route is pre-mapped for ADAS, it would be nice if these areas were shown and you would know just not to bother with DDP for sections that are iffy.

Side note. While I do appreciate the curve slow down feature that DDP has, I just wish one could set a minimum speed range because sometimes it goes a bit too hard on the regen/brake.

 

[borski]

Maybe this is yet another problem with pre-mapping. Perhaps not all of the shoulder construction areas were mapped, so seeing cones or other orange things made the car instantly turn DD Pro off so they could say I was driving if there was an accident. That ain't gonna cut it.

This has nothing at all to do with mapping.

Construction areas turn off handsfree right now, period, because it requires human oversight.

Even if they were “mapped” it would still turn off.

 

[doubletwist]

I have a similar experience going over Hwy 17 from Los Gatos to the Santa Cruz area and back (us Bay Area people will just speak amongst ourselves from this point ). DDP disengages and reengages all the time, but I wouldn't expect it not to, given the amount of construction and paint restriping that constantly happens there. I've seen Teslas, partying on with FSD, phantom brake up there on occasion in the lane next to me. Quite unsettling. It is a test area for ADAS sensors and ML, I'm told by people in the biz, for a reason.

I don't think DDP and the nav systems have much to say to each other right now, but if a planned route is pre-mapped for ADAS, it would be nice if these areas were shown and you would know just not to bother with DDP for sections that are iffy.

Side note. While I do appreciate the curve slow down feature that DDP has, I just wish one could set a minimum speed range because sometimes it goes a bit too hard on the regen/brake.

I can't fathom trusting any ADAS on hwy 17!

 

[Saksak]

[…] Yeah, the lines on those roads aren't always perfect and there's lots of little shoulder construction areas along the way, but that's the real world and Lucid's DD damn well better handle them better. […]

I would love Lucid to be able to handle every situation the real world has to offer. That’s L4/L5, and while we may want it, it’s not here yet.

Lucid’s current state is L2 and works great within its bounds. In the situation you described, we already know DDPro will not do well. It’s time to use our own brains, know the limits, and take manual control.

It’s unreasonable to expect a toddler to function as an adult and blame the toddler. DDPro is a toddler.

 

[Saksak]

[…] This is the basic long-distance freeway travel. With the constant vigilance needed, it's arguable whether DD Pro is any sort of benefit at all, IMO. […]

It would be interesting to map out brain activity with and without lane centering. For me, the difference is noticeable. After an 8 hr drive with manual steering, I’m wiped. With DDPro lane centering, hands free or not, I’m an attentive passenger for most of the drive, far less fatigued, and ready to hit the town.

 

[prgarg]

Lucid’s current state is L2 and works great within its bounds.

I was just about to say that. It works very well for what it is, you just have to remember what it is

 

[gaskiller]

Finally got the chance to take a long drive, from San Jose to Lake Tahoe (Olympic Village/Incline Village) last weekend. 280 to 680 to 80, exactly the kind of drive my GGT, with the "Tahoe" interior should have been designed for.

Very disappointing.

About the only thing that consistently worked was the "adding space" when passing trucks. While sometimes the car would tell you that DD was ending soon, just as often (if not more often) it would just literally suddenly chime and give up the ghost. One time the car jerked, making everyone in the car scared and asking me "What are you doing?" Mostly, it would smoothly end and restart, but the constant chiming in and out drove my passengers crazy. Yeah, the lines on those roads aren't always perfect and there's lots of little shoulder construction areas along the way, but that's the real world and Lucid's DD damn well better handle them better.

Maybe this is yet another problem with pre-mapping. Perhaps not all of the shoulder construction areas were mapped, so seeing cones or other orange things made the car instantly turn DD Pro off so they could say I was driving if there was an accident. That ain't gonna cut it. The lanes were still open, there wasn't even a speed reduction sign that I can recall at these areas. And certainly not when some of the painted lines had faded or been paved over. Drivers figure this out and the car should, too.

I'm not asking for city/traffic light autonomy, and not asking for handling interchanges. This is the basic long-distance freeway travel. With the constant vigilance needed, it's arguable whether DD Pro is any sort of benefit at all, IMO.

PS: I sure hope the robotaxi software is completely different, and given the hardware changes I've seen, I now have no expectation of any of that coming to our vehicles.

Expecting anything better from any autonomous system ( even Tesla has its issues) is unrealistic. Just drive the car. Why put your life in the hands of a car software. Only one I trust is Waymo and that too, only in cities. Not on highways.

We are at least a decade away from consumer autonomous cars.

 

[doubletwist]

It would be interesting to map out brain activity with and without lane centering. For me, the difference is noticeable. After an 8 hr drive with manual steering, I’m wiped. With DDPro lane centering, hands free or not, I’m an attentive passenger for most of the drive, far less fatigued, and ready to hit the town.

Interesting. While I haven't tried Lucid's (I only have DD Premium on my Air), when I use the Hands-On lane centering on my wife's Genesis GV60, I find it incredibly tiring.

In large part because it does things like it starts turning into a curve much later than I would have, or when I try to correct it a little it tries to correct back, etc.

Plus, I've been driving for so long, including many, many really long road trips (twice yearly from Northern California to west Texas), and long daily commutes (54 miles each way over Ca highway 17, and a 74 mile each way up Hwy 101). that highway driving is practically second nature for me. I don't really have to think about the normal steering, as long as I've got a good cruise control. Then the only thing I have to think about is reacting to non-normal situations.

 

[Saksak]

[…] In large part because it does things like it starts turning into a curve much later than I would have, or when I try to correct it a little it tries to correct back, etc.

[…] I don't really have to think about the normal steering, as long as I've got a good cruise control. Then the only thing I have to think about is reacting to non-normal situations.

Cruise control with automatic distance following is huge. Lane centering is not as big of benefit as ACC, but it’s noticeable.

Two things make the Lucid system less fatiguing.

1. No corrections are needed for well defined highways. If you don’t have to think about steering, those are the ideal conditions for DDPro hands free and you won’t have to intervene.
2. Lucid’s system is cooperative. While there is force feedback, it doesn’t feel like you are fighting the system. It’s more like you nudge it and it becomes intuitive/second nature.

Curves requiring slowing down still need some tuning, but those highways sections are in the minority.

 

[Miami_Lucid_Man]

I was honestly not impressed with DD Pro or 2 or whatever it’s called on the Gravity in the recent GGT loaner I had for several days. It seemed to lane keep less accurately than my old Tesla standard autopilot lane keeping. There was a bit of ping ponging back and forth in between the lane lines too. My wife’s XC90 does a better job to be honest. Doesn’t seem worth the price to me on its current iteration.

 

[tonybot]

You're framing the disengagement as the car dodging liability, but it's the car doing exactly what a Level 2 system is supposed to do when its inputs degrade.

Would you feel comfortable if a plane was on approach, the runway lights were out, half the markings were faded, and the pilot just left autopilot engaged because "the plane should just figure it out"? Of course not. Autopilot works because it operates inside a defined envelope with reliable references. When those references go away, the correct behavior is to hand control back to the human, and any pilot who didn't would be grounded. Nobody calls that a failure of the autopilot.

Faded lines, paved-over lines, cones on the shoulder, unmapped construction zones are the automotive version of the runway lights being out. Yes, a human driver can infer where the lane "probably" is from context. A lane-centering system that guesses at that is a system that will eventually guess wrong at 70 mph with your family in the car. I'd much rather it chime and hand off than confidently hold a lane that no longer exists.

Where I agree with you is on the handoff itself. A sudden chime with no warning, and the one jerk you described, is the actual problem. It’s why you need to be paying attention at all times but also something Lucid could get better at in predicting (hopefully)

I agree with the basic principle: automation shouldn’t continue using guidance it can no longer trust. And your last paragraph identifies the concern with the reported behavior.

One clarification on the aviation comparison: an autopilot flying an ILS approach follows radio guidance from the localizer and glideslope. Runway lights and markings serve a different purpose. Losing those visual references may prevent a landing, but it doesn’t automatically mean the autopilot has lost its guidance or must be disconnected. Depending on the aircraft and circumstances, the go-around can also be flown with the autopilot engaged.

Aircraft autopilots can disconnect unexpectedly, too, so advance warning isn’t always possible. But whether a disconnect was necessary and whether the system behaved acceptably around that disconnect are separate questions.

That’s the distinction I’d apply here. The driver remains responsible throughout, but “it’s Level 2” doesn’t, by itself, establish that this particular steering response and disengagement were well handled. Equally, a disconnect alone doesn’t prove a defect.

We seem to agree that the reported jerk and the clarity of the warning deserve attention. Ideally, the passenger’s coffee remains a beverage rather than becoming a flight instrument.

 

[Saksak]

I was honestly not impressed with DD Pro or 2 or whatever it’s called on the Gravity in the recent GGT loaner I had for several days. It seemed to lane keep less accurately than my old Tesla standard autopilot lane keeping. There was a bit of ping ponging back and forth in between the lane lines too. My wife’s XC90 does a better job to be honest. Doesn’t seem worth the price to me on its current iteration.

Strange. I’ve driven many thousands of miles with DD Pro and I would say it doesn’t ping-pong. It does hunt a tiny bit on moderate curves, where I would give it a grade of B-. My Tesla on autopilot gets a C and my Volvo XC 90 gets an F (it leaves the lane) on the same curves. Tesla FSD gets an A.

It drives smoother than many Uber drivers.

 

[Secretagent58]

I was honestly not impressed with DD Pro or 2 or whatever it’s called on the Gravity in the recent GGT loaner I had for several days. It seemed to lane keep less accurately than my old Tesla standard autopilot lane keeping. There was a bit of ping ponging back and forth in between the lane lines too. My wife’s XC90 does a better job to be honest. Doesn’t seem worth the price to me on its current iteration.

Yes, I would say that DDP lane centering seems to degrade when using Adaptive Cruise Control on more urban secondary roads. While lane centering is rock solid on most highways, whether pre-mapped or otherwise, I notice a lot of ping-ponging and steering wheel jerkiness on city streets.

 

[Secretagent58]

I was just about to say that. It works very well for what it is, you just have to remember what it is

Just the other day, I was going through a construction zone on I-76. Wide shoulder on each side and handsfree had been enabled for a couple of minutes. I normally don’t use DDP in construction zones but I was curious as to how the car would handle this stretch of highway. Everything was smooth until the lane shifted to the right and the vehicle kept going straight towards a jersey barrier. Of course, I instantly took control to avert disaster but was somewhat surprised that the car did not recognize a clearly marked painted line. We have to accept that Lucid’s autonomy level is still in it’s ’toddler” stage and I honestly don’t expect any significant leap forward, i.e. point-to-point, for least a year. I sincerely hope I am wrong about this as I forked over 6k+ for the sensor stack to enable FSD-like capability, but I just get the feeling that we’ve all got a long wait ahead of us. Having said that, I’m cool to wait since when point-to-point is released, I want it to be rock solid.

 

[Bus Driver]

In another thread I complained loudly about this ping-ponging behaviour. The thing is it only happened once, one night on a late evening drive home.

The following morning, I forgot about the ping-ponging behaviour of the previous night, forgot to do a reset in my garage, and just drove off. Once on the freeway, no ping ponging. None at all, like the previous night had never happened.

I’ve since engaged and disengaged HFDA repeatedly since that late night drive a few nights ago. The car has behaved normally every time.

Strange.