Charge port location- A problem for some?

[Lucken]

The charge rate today isn't the rate you may see tomorrow. Kyle stated that Lucid engineers told him they would start with a conservative charge curve then ramp up The number to look for depends on where you are on the curve. Seems like every EV has a different charge curve designed for it...and manufacturers change the curve as they get more comfortable with how the vehicles are performing via OTA update. Lucid might go the Taycan route and be aggressive to 50% then taper off. They will probably charge the test cars every night and depending on demand, limit test drive duration.

On your cross country trip, you will also run into EA stations where they haven't upgraded to 350 and are still at 150 so be prepared for longer waits to charge since you might want to charge to 90 - 100% for some legs. Depending on the curve, it could take 2 to 3 times as long to get from 70% to 100% as it took to get from 20% to 70%.

I always take the conservative approach with cars & electronics. I operate under the assumption that the product I buy today is the way it will be for its lifetime. If I’m fine with its current performance, then any improvements will put me in the bonus round. If I purchase operating under the assumption that although I’m not fully satisfied today, there will probably be firmware upgrades in the future that will make me happy, then I’m simply gambling. If those updates don’t ever materialize, I will probably always be less than satisfied. There is also the issue of how long any improvements take to be implemented. Conservative companies can take the cautious approach and I suspect Lucid falls into that category.

Obviously this is all dependent upon the magnitude of the issue that initially bothers me.

 

[Lucken]

That is what I like about the AGTs range. I can actually drive until I need a meal break. Charge. Then drive to my destination, presumably a hotel with an overnight charger available. For road trips, one really needs a car with a 500 mile to a 1000km range. That solves both range anxiety and charging time issues.

I‘d disagree with that. You should be taking breaks far more frequently than 500 miles if safety is factored in. It’s very hard to stay alert driving nonstop for 500 miles. I think it’s prudent to take breaks every 200-300 miles. And yes, there’s the argument that a car rated at 500 miles will get less than that under less than ideal conditions (cold, heat, rain etc.), but still…

 

[hmp10]

We are planning some road trips, too, in our Air, including to some overnight stops without nearby Electrify America or other brand Level 3 chargers. So we, too, will look for hotels with Level 2 chargers. However, the few Level 2 chargers I've seen have only one or two plugs available. I'm wondering how long it will be before more than one or two guests need overnight charging . . . and whether hotels will allow you to reserve a guaranteed Level 2 charger slot along with your room.

In the past year the number of Teslas in our environs has skyrocketed. It's common for us to be sitting at a red light at a large intersection and see two or three other Teslas at the intersection. Even though there are Level 3 Superchargers within 20 miles in either direction and most of the Teslas we see are local and probably have home charging, a new Supercharger station opened a few weeks ago at a Target. I was wondering how much use would really be made of it. Then last Tuesday we went to Target to shop and saw eight Teslas plugged in and another one waiting.

There is a Tesla Level 2 destination charger behind a local Burger-Fi. I have yet to see it open, as either a Tesla is plugged into it or the Domino's delivery driver has parked his car there for a quick getaway.

I don't think we're at the point yet with CCS charging that it is safe to plan a trip without relying exclusively on the Level 3 highway installations. With VW and Ford EVs already on the road in goodly numbers and others brands coming soon, I have a feeling that CCS owners will soon find themselves waiting for their turns at a charger as many Tesla drivers now do.

 

[dawktah LucidGT]

That is what I like about the AGTs range. I can actually drive until I need a meal break. Charge. Then drive to my destination, presumably a hotel with an overnight charger available. For road trips, one really needs a car with a 500 mile to a 1000km range. That solves both range anxiety and charging time issues.

Our bodies gave out way before we ran out of gas driving to Ft. Lauderdale a few years ago.

 

[dawktah LucidGT]

I‘d disagree with that. You should be taking breaks far more frequently than 500 miles if safety is factored in. It’s very hard to stay alert driving nonstop for 500 miles. I think it’s prudent to take breaks every 200-300 miles. And yes, there’s the argument that a car rated at 500 miles will get less than that under less than ideal conditions (cold, heat, rain etc.), but still…

I think this is age dependent. I would drive from Washington, D.C. to Chicago in one shot when in residency. Stopping for gas and food. Food meaning, fast eat while you drive. What you can do in your twenties.

Also, keep in mind all the driver assist features that didn't exist in the past. Other than DVT, having the 500 mile range allows you to plan to go just a bit farther to charge due to food options. If anything that needs to change is charger locations, uncovered poor lighting etc.

 

[Lucken]

I think this is age dependent. I would drive from Washington, D.C. to Chicago in one shot when in residency. Stopping for gas and food. Food meaning, fast eat while you drive. What you can do in your twenties.

Also, keep in mind all the driver assist features that didn't exist in the past. Other than DVT, having the 500 mile range allows you to plan to go just a bit farther to charge due to food options. If anything that needs to change is charger locations, uncovered poor lighting etc.

I agree that age is a factor, but because we drove 500 miles in our 20s didn't mean we were taking the safe approach. Think back to when in you were in your 20s, we did lots of questionable things.

It's funny, for me, whenever I used the Tesla self-driving feature, I was less relaxed than when I drove the car myself. The occasional desire of my MS to steer into a wall precluded any relaxation on my part. So other than old-fashioned adaptive cruise control, I'm not sure how relaxed I'd be with other driver assist features. I tend not to use some that are there already.

 

[dawktah LucidGT]

I agree that age is a factor, but because we drove 500 miles in our 20s didn't mean we were taking the safe approach. Think back to when in you were in your 20s, we did lots of questionable things.

It's funny, for me, whenever I used the Tesla self-driving feature, I was less relaxed than when I drove the car myself. The occasional desire of my MS to steer into a wall precluded any relaxation on my part. So other than old-fashioned adaptive cruise control, I'm not sure how relaxed I'd be with other driver assist features. I tend not to use some that are there already.

I rented a Tesla from Turo, navigate on autopilot scared me something awful. Not doing that again unless VERY open road.

 

[Sandvinsd]

I‘d disagree with that. You should be taking breaks far more frequently than 500 miles if safety is factored in. It’s very hard to stay alert driving nonstop for 500 miles. I think it’s prudent to take breaks every 200-300 miles. And yes, there’s the argument that a car rated at 500 miles will get less than that under less than ideal conditions (cold, heat, rain etc.), but still…

I never said it was driving for 500 miles without stopping - as an older male, I need my frequent ‘pit stops.’. However I don’t want to take 30-40 minutes every time I stop for a charge, not spend time trying to find a station that has an empty slot to charge. If one has 300 miles of EPA range In a new car battery, under optimal conditions, you only have 240 EPA miles (driving until you hit 20% and charging to 80%). And that is EPA miles, not real miles and not highway miles. I have only seen the Porsche actually get the claimed EPA miles in the real world. That means if one does drive 500-600 miles in a day on a long trip, one would have to charge AT LEAST twice at a minimum of 30’ each. Again, this is under optimal conditions. Temperature and speed will only increase the number of required stops. I am just saying if one has a car with a 500 mile to 1000km range, range anxiety and the lack of an AVAILABLE charger when you want it becomes a non-issue. Driving an EV is now like an ICE. It has nothing to do with driving 500 miles nonstop (or really 400 miles taking it to 20% on a full ‘tank’).

Another consideration is charge time with battery temperature. I have a Nissan Leaf which, unfortunately, does not have a liquid cooled battery system which exacerbates the issue. Driving at highway speeds warms the battery. Warm batteries charge slower. Charging the battery generates heat which also adds to a slower charge time. I can drive to a 20% SOC. Then spend 30’ to charge the battery, drive again down to 20’. The second charge will take 40-60’ to get back to 80% because of the battery temperature. Every charge takes longer. Therefore, I cannot take the Leaf on a long trip as I would be spending more time charging than driving. Now I fully expect that Lucid will have the thermal management optimal on their car so this won’t be an issue. But until I actually see it, I rely on experience. Therefore, I want 500 miles of EPA range. i agree that the entry level cars will be in the 250-300 mile range on a battery, but IMHO the holy grail is to be able to make an inexpensive car that can get that 500 mile / 1000km range. Lucid, by being more efficient will be able to have a longer range for the same size battery. I believe that will be a distinct advantage as they drop the price points - better quality, longer range, same price……

 

[Lucken]

For me, personally, 400 miles of range is absolutely fine. Truth be told, 300 miles is probably fine and that's why I hedged by bets with a cautionary deposit on a BMW I4. Even driving my current Audi e-Tron with only 218 miles of range brings on little range anxiety for me. I almost always match and often beat the EPA rating as do many other owners. I currently stand at a lifetime of 2.8 miles/kWh which is in excess of the EPA estimates. Of course winter brings on reduced range, but in the case of e-Tron it fares much better in cold weather than many other BEVs due to its excellent thermal management. I'd be surprised of the Lucid doesn't have an equally excellent thermal management system. Does that mean I wouldn't appreciate a BEV with more range? Of course not, but I don't 'need' to have 500 miles of range, I really don't. We all have different needs & expectations.

Having owned a late 2017 Tesla MS, with a limited range, taught me about the ins & outs of range. Range anxiety tends to be an issue more for those that have never driven a BEV and have little idea about the charging infrastructure. You'd be surprised at how many people think driving from NY to Florida is impossible in a car with a 200 mile range. Obviously your location & charging infrastructure along your routes are critically important, but I know many people who have driven BEVs with ranges in the area of 200 miles and have no issues driving from NY to Florida. The charging infrastructure along the east coast is quite good and improving every day. For me, stopping every 2 hours is fine and I enjoy the break.

Finally, almost as important as range, is how quickly the car charges and how well it can maintain its rate of charge. This is why in comparison tests the e-Tron has beaten other cars with greater range in timed tests gong from point A to point B. It simply charges much quicker. When I pull up to a 150kW charger and run an errand, I'm more concerned about being charged for overtime parking, since the charging gets completed so quickly. Lucid promises even faster charging, so again, I'm not one to obsess about range.

 

[hmp10]

For a few years yet, Electrify America and other Level 3 CCS chargers are going to remain spaced far enough apart that drivers will not be invariably able to coordinate bathroom and meal breaks with charging breaks. They'll need to charge when they come up on a charger, whether they're hungry or in need of a bathroom or not. Likewise, they'll often have to eat and go to the bathroom when the body demands instead of waiting to get to the next CCS charger.

It is just in the past year or two that Tesla Superchargers have finally hit the point of ubiquity, at least outside of California, where coordinating bathroom and food breaks with charging breaks is easy to do on most -- but not all -- long-distance routes.

 

[Lucken]

For a few years yet, Electrify America and other Level 3 CCS chargers are going to remain spaced far enough apart that drivers will not be invariably able to coordinate bathroom and meal breaks with charging breaks. They'll need to charge when they come up on a charger, whether they're hungry or in need of a bathroom or not. Likewise, they'll often have to eat and go to the bathroom when the body demands instead of waiting to get to the next CCS charger.

It is just in the past year or two that Tesla Superchargers have finally hit the point of ubiquity, at least outside of California, where coordinating bathroom and food breaks with charging breaks is easy to do on most -- but not all -- long-distance routes.

I guess that would depend on the individual's bladder habits.

I guess I'm lucky at my age and can easily hold out for a charger whenever I need it...avoiding the 32 ounce Big Gulps in the process.

 

[dawktah LucidGT]

For a few years yet, Electrify America and other Level 3 CCS chargers are going to remain spaced far enough apart that drivers will not be invariably able to coordinate bathroom and meal breaks with charging breaks. They'll need to charge when they come up on a charger, whether they're hungry or in need of a bathroom or not. Likewise, they'll often have to eat and go to the bathroom when the body demands instead of waiting to get to the next CCS charger.

It is just in the past year or two that Tesla Superchargers have finally hit the point of ubiquity, at least outside of California, where coordinating bathroom and food breaks with charging breaks is easy to do on most -- but not all -- long-distance routes.

A Better Route Planner looks petty good at coordinating stops and eating. Any of you use it?

 

[Lucken]

A Better Route Planner looks petty good at coordinating stops and eating. Any of you use it?

Yes, it’s got a very good reputation.

 

[Sandvinsd]

A Better Route Planner looks petty good at coordinating stops and eating. Any of you use it?

Interesting. I downloaded the app to check it out.

I put in a sample 2-day drive (20 hour driving time total) that I would take routinely with our ICE and put in my current Nissan Leaf which has 151 mile range, used my current battery state of health and a minimum setting for stopping to charge at 20%. I got back a message “this trip is not possible, but here is our best guess.“ I then put in a 2020 Chevy Bolt (same battery SOH and minimum settings) which would have a 259 mile range, in line with what others on the board have said is sufficient for range. It can now make a trip, but my 20 hour, two day drive turned into a 30+ hour 3-day drive. That highlights my point that a 200-300 mile range car is just not practical with current charging infrastructure and speeds. i then put in the Lucid Air (Yes, they have an Air Dream loaded in their app and used same settings as for the others). That 20 hour driving time trip is only a 23 hour drive with the charging stops. And in line with what it would take me in an ICE with gas, food and bathroom stops. Also, these were all done with driving at the speed limit and an optimal 68F air temp.

 

[Lucken]

Remember it’s really contingent upon your route, location & charging speeds. Traveling along the east coast from NY to Florida, where there are numerous chargers along I-95, you wouldn’t see that kind of disparity. Sure, the greater range would get you there quicker if you decided to stretch your stops, but if you were stopping every 2-3 hours anyway, much of the range advantage disappears.

If you live in the Midwest or any area with a sparse charging infrastructure, then the greater range has a huge advantage.Then you have to couple all of this with the fact that the overwhelming majority of people charge at home and don’t take those long road trips anyway. I seldom do. YMMV.

 

[dawktah LucidGT]

Remember it’s really contingent upon your route, location & charging speeds. Traveling along the east coast from NY to Florida, where there are numerous chargers along I-95, you wouldn’t see that kind of disparity. Sure, the greater range would get you there quicker if you decided to stretch your stops, but if you were stopping every 2-3 hours anyway, much of the range advantage disappears.

If you live in the Midwest or any area with a sparse charging infrastructure, then the greater range has a huge advantage.Then you have to couple all of this with the fact that the overwhelming majority of people charge at home and don’t take those long road trips anyway. I seldom do. YMMV.

Actually, the stretch from Grand Canyon Railway to Moab can't be done by most non-Tesla or Lucid BEV. If they did you'll be stopping at a L2 charger for quite a long time.