Enthusiast Canceling after the Launch event - in Depth Reasons/discrepancies noted

[victoryroad]

If history tells us anything, newer generations are typically more prone to new technology while older generations are typically more traditionists.

Add to the fact that younger generations tend to have to grind against traffic to work, self-driving cars can alleviate the monotonous slog. Meanwhile older generations are typically in more lax position in life or retired, and rather wish to enjoy their cars than use ADAS features that take away the experience of feeling their drive.

2016 U.S. Tech Choice Study

Trust in automation technology is very much age dependent, as younger consumers have a notably higher level of confidence in the technology than their older counterparts, according to the J.D. Power 2016 U.S. Tech Choice StudySM released today. Trust in automation technology is a critical step...

www.jdpower.com

Survey: Millennials more likely to trust autonomous cars

Though fully autonomous vehicles have yet to be released for consumer use, according to a recent Autolist survey , it seems that there is already a market for them. In a nationwide survey of 8,576 …

www.jacksonville.com

Younger Generations More Likely to Prefer a Self-Driving Vehicle — AutoPacific

1/2 of Generation Y and Z New Car Buyers Would Prefer a Self-Driving Vehicle When asked if they “would prefer to own a vehicle that, on demand, can drive itself,” 28% of new vehicle buyers overall agree with the statement (top 2 box). Generation Z new vehicle owners are the most likely to agree (50

www.autopacific.com

Older Americans more wary than younger adults about prospect of driverless cars on the road

53% of those 50 and older say the widespread use of driverless vehicles would be a bad idea for society, as do 37% of adults ages 18 to 49.

www.pewresearch.org

Yes, the conventional view that an older age cohort may be less interested in automated driving features and that the 2016 "study" implications are relatively unchanged may be true. Not sure of the point of this though. The intention of illuminating the views of others with your posts will help Lucid calibrate its product offerings is interesting at the margin, but so far Lucid has been masterful in its design and engineering from a purely dynamic perspective, if not software yet. FWIW, if HA could keep my AGT in the center of well-marked lanes I would use it, but it does not do so reliably yet. I may be alone, but I did not participate in the first year of the Air predicated on its potential for self-driving features. The pity is that unless one drives an Air in various situations one cannot know its capabilities. As Louis Armstrong is said to have quipped when asked to define Jazz, "If I have to define it, you will never know."

 

[invalidname]

I’m 55. I tried the HA and it wasn’t for me.

Tbh you look more youthful in your profile pic than your age suggests.

 

[invalidname]

Yes, the conventional view that an older age cohort may be less interested in automated driving features and that the 2016 "study" implications are relatively unchanged may be true. Not sure of the point of this though. The intention of illuminating the views of others with your posts will help Lucid calibrate its product offerings is interesting at the margin, but so far Lucid has been masterful in its design and engineering from a purely dynamic perspective, if not software yet. FWIW, if HA could keep my AGT in the center of well-marked lanes I would use it, but it does not do so reliably yet. I may be alone, but I did not participate in the first year of the Air predicated on its potential for self-driving features. The pity is that unless one drives an Air in various situations one cannot know its capabilities. As Louis Armstrong is said to have quipped when asked to define Jazz, "If I have to define it, you will never know."

I must commend Lucid on their emphasis on excellent driving dynamics, and after test-driving it several times, it saddens me to know there are enthusiasts out there who have not been able to experience being behind the wheel of an Air. The Lucid Air is truly the epitome of a driver's car for a 4-door sports sedan. From the BMW M5 and Porsche bechmarks, to the Lotus influences from Peter Rawlinson and Mazda MX-5 influences from Derek Jenkins, the Lucid Air combines and compresses some of the best modern driver's cars into a practical, luxurious driving machine.

However, the point of my original post, of which this member was asking proof for, was that we cannot ignore the market, now and in the future. My original post emphasized on the importance of accessible Level 2 ADAS features such as HA, especially for younger generations, and argued how it affects resale value in the future, especially since younger generation trends greatly influence resale value.

 

[SDHacker]

I have ridden a Nio EV 3.5 years ago. I actually mistaken it as Tesla model-S first time when got picked up by one. I didn’t think Chinese were capable back then. Now I’ve heard they have improved even much more. It’s kind of scary how fast they advance while this side of world still gospel for fossil fuel.

Kyle Conner did a first drive video of a NIO ET7 (MS equivalent)

While a little glitchy (his word), the software options are impressive. So many of the requests for updates for the Air exist on this vehicle. Efficiency isn't where it needs to be given Kyle's estimate of what the EPA rating for the 100 kwh pack would be (don't remember the number but it was in the lower 300s). NIO pushes their battery swapping tech so their charging capability isn't robust, something like 120 kwh but their software really impressed me.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Kyle Conner did a first drive video of a NIO ET7 (MS equivalent)

While a little glitchy (his word), the software options are impressive. So many of the requests for updates for the Air exist on this vehicle. Efficiency isn't where it needs to be given Kyle's estimate of what the EPA rating for the 100 kwh pack would be (don't remember the number but it was in the lower 300s). NIO pushes their battery swapping tech so their charging capability isn't robust, something like 120 kwh but their software really impressed me.

Yes, I watched that video. I hope Lucid software team watch it too and get some ET7 in California or Norway to spec out its software and add those features to Air.

 

[Dortreo]

I must commend Lucid on their emphasis on excellent driving dynamics, and after test-driving it several times, it saddens me to know there are enthusiasts out there who have not been able to experience being behind the wheel of an Air. The Lucid Air is truly the epitome of a driver's car for a 4-door sports sedan. From the BMW M5 and Porsche bechmarks, to the Lotus influences from Peter Rawlinson and Mazda MX-5 influences from Derek Jenkins, the Lucid Air combines and compresses some of the best modern driver's cars into a practical, luxurious driving machine.

However, the point of my original post, of which this member was asking proof for, was that we cannot ignore the market, now and in the future. My original post emphasized on the importance of accessible Level 2 ADAS features such as HA, especially for younger generations, and argued how it affects resale value in the future, especially since younger generation trends greatly influence resale value.

My wife calls the Lucid my “Cadillac” in that it’s geared toward old farts like me. (In response, I put it in Sprint mode and make her carsick.)

But she’s got a point: If the Lucid doesn’t have the price and features to appeal to a younger set of drivers, it’ll remain a niche car and Lucid a niche company.

And she’s right about one more thing: If not for the Lucid, I’d be driving an Eldorado the color of an avocado.

 

[victoryroad]

I must commend Lucid on their emphasis on excellent driving dynamics, and after test-driving it several times, it saddens me to know there are enthusiasts out there who have not been able to experience being behind the wheel of an Air. The Lucid Air is truly the epitome of a driver's car for a 4-door sports sedan. From the BMW M5 and Porsche bechmarks, to the Lotus influences from Peter Rawlinson and Mazda MX-5 influences from Derek Jenkins, the Lucid Air combines and compresses some of the best modern driver's cars into a practical, luxurious driving machine.

However, the point of my original post, of which this member was asking proof for, was that we cannot ignore the market, now and in the future. My original post emphasized on the importance of accessible Level 2 ADAS features such as HA, especially for younger generations, and argued how it affects resale value in the future, especially since younger generation trends greatly influence resale value.

Of course, owners expect progressive OTA updates with improved features over time, so resale may not be as negatively affected as some here apparently expect and is not a concern of mine. Those who paid Tesla a premium for FDS years ago are still waiting for a zero-error tolerance system. Perhaps the "younger generation" will want to wait until such autonomous features are a reality.

Where did you get the idea that Lucid might be ignoring the market? While future hardware will undoubtedly improve and change, the existing hardware on the Air is likely to accommodate SW updates for a typical ownership interval.

 

[stevelitchfieldpark]

OP here. The point of this original post was to spur exactly this discussion. I don’t feel entitled to Highway assist or such. I just want Lucid to be honest, transparent, and consistent, and I do not feel they were so regarding Highway Assist in Dreamdrive non-pro. Simple as that. And yes, I did cancel my Airs as I felt they had demonstrated behaviors regarding transparency inconsistent with a company I wanted to support (and I very much want to support a startup American EV manufacturer, which is why I own a Rivian R1S). I post here only as an enthusiast, and if they rectify this type of issue, or at a minimum are clear on their “L2/L3 driving assist plans, I am happy to reserve a Gravity SUV this spring.

As for those on this forum, I only posted the Barry LucidInsider Twitter spat because I admired him as an enthusiast who tried to get a ‘in the details’ Lucid blog started like all the Tesla and Rivian ones we see, and it was unfortunate to see Lucid treat someone that way publicly.

If we get past the flaming and trolling of me, hopefully you can see that I don’t care about clicks or something, nor the stock price, you will see I am simply trying to spur EXACTLY this discussion so Lucid sees it, and can correct it before they have massive cancellations of the mass-market Pure due to highway assist, because I care about innovative companies and sometimes they can get arrogant or screw up packaging. My level of detail in these posts should demonstrate I have followed Lucid a long time and know the technical details. I respect everyone who bought a AGT or dream and money is no object, but this company won’t survive as a boutique car company without steady mass market orders so its really not necessary to treat Pure owners like garbage, rather and hear out their opinions if you actually care about Lucid’s viability beyond a patronage of the Saudi Arabia investment fund. No one wants Lucid to be the next Fisker Karma.

Now that you've cancelled your orders. isn't about time to move on?

 

[Sid432]

Tbh you look more youthful in your profile pic than your age suggests.

Could be that was his headshot from his college days

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Yes, I watched that video. I hope Lucid software team watch it too and get some ET7 in California or Norway to spec out its software and add those features to Air.

Yeah the Nio software is very impressive…and the interface is like a phone. Just a big rectangular iPAD with no aesthetics stuck in the middle of the dash and square icons with a rather small driver dashboard display and even smaller menu icons buried under layers, with almost no buttons. But with a cartoonish Wall-E companion looking at you the whole time? LUXURIOUS! If software is all that matters, then yeah ET7 wins. The Lucid just appears way more elegant and thought out to me, just doesn’t have the layers and layers of features and degree of customization…yet. The Lucid’s back seat appears better though, roof appears better, efficiency is remarkably better, driving dynamics are better, storage space is better, the car looks better… the ET7 does have a good price though and great software features.

 

[invalidname]

Of course, owners expect progressive OTA updates with improved features over time, so resale may not be as negatively affected as some here apparently expect and is not a concern of mine. Those who paid Tesla a premium for FDS years ago are still waiting for a zero-error tolerance system. Perhaps the "younger generation" will want to wait until such autonomous features are a reality.

Where did you get the idea that Lucid might be ignoring the market? While future hardware will undoubtedly improve and change, the existing hardware on the Air is likely to accommodate SW updates for a typical ownership interval.

You can't OTA hardware installations, and at the moment, future retrofitting hardware is not a consideration by the Lucid team. There are major hardware differences between DD and DDP.

I do not understand why you brought up Tesla's FSD, since that is Level 3 autonomy, that is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing standard Level 2 autonomous features like HA, which apparently is locked behind hardware differences of DDP.

Per OP's inquiry that suggests HA is not considered to ever come to standard DD via OTA (I also personally inquired to fact-check), and per the Lucid's ADAS team's heavy reliance on NVIDIA's DRIVE Hyperion platform, which is LIDAR-driven, it doesn't seem like the current trajectory enables "waiting until such autonomous features are a reality" with standard DD.

 

[Coltonw011]

You can't OTA hardware installations, and at the moment, future retrofitting hardware is not a consideration by the Lucid team. There are major hardware differences between DD and DDP.

I do not understand why you brought up Tesla's FSD, since that is Level 3 autonomy, that is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing standard Level 2 autonomous features like HA, which apparently is locked behind hardware differences of DDP.

Per OP's inquiry that suggests HA is not considered to ever come to standard DD via OTA (I also personally inquired to fact-check), and per the Lucid's ADAS team's heavy reliance on NVIDIA's DRIVE Hyperion platform, which is LIDAR-driven, it doesn't seem like the current trajectory enables "waiting until such autonomous features are a reality" with standard DD.

FSD is level 2..

 

[thecodingart]

FSD is level 2..

It’s actually level 3-4, level 2 is really what highway assist is on Lucid today. There’s a large gap on what these systems are capable of. You might be referencing what’s stamped on via government regulation, but Mercedes is essentially level 3, FSD is between level 3-4 without a regulation stamp.

Mercedes tech stack is pretty awesome being a joint partnership with Tesla in the beginning, but FSD is more capable regardless of regulatory labels.

Mercedes Wins Race Against Tesla For Level 3 Autonomy Approval, And We’ve Tried It | Carscoops

Drive Pilot allows hands-off, movie-watching trips at up to 38 mph on Germany motorways from early 2022, availability in other countries will follow

www.carscoops.com

The 6 Levels of Vehicle Autonomy Explained | Synopsys Automotive

Before merging onto roadways, self-driving cars will have to progress through 6 levels of driver assistance technology advancements. SAE defines 6 levels of driving automation ranging from 0 (fully manual) to 5 (fully autonomous). Learn more.

www.synopsys.com

 

[Coltonw011]

It’s actually level 3-4, level 2 is really what highway assist is on Lucid today. There’s a large gap on what these systems are capable of. You might be referencing what’s stamped on via government regulation, but Mercedes is essentially level 3, FSD is between level 3-4 without a regulation stamp.

The 6 Levels of Vehicle Autonomy Explained | Synopsys Automotive

Before merging onto roadways, self-driving cars will have to progress through 6 levels of driver assistance technology advancements. SAE defines 6 levels of driving automation ranging from 0 (fully manual) to 5 (fully autonomous). Learn more.

www.synopsys.com

Even by Tesla’s own admission, it’s level 2. While it may be attempting to get there, it’s not level 3 or 4. Mercedes has level 3 in Europe under 37 mph and a bunch of other conditions. FSD couldn’t perform level 3 or 4 tasks reliably as it would not only kill people, but bankrupt Tesla in the process as level 3 requires the automaker to assume liability.

Tesla Tells California DMV that FSD Is Not Capable of Autonomous Driving

After years of touting its long-awaited Full Self-Driving feature, Tesla is telling California regulators a different story about its capabilities.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[thecodingart]

Even by Tesla’s own admission, it’s level 2. While it may be attempting to get there, it’s not level 3 or 4. Mercedes has level 3 in Europe under 37 mph and a bunch of other conditions. FSD couldn’t perform level 3 or 4 tasks reliably as it would not only kill people, but bankrupt Tesla in the process as level 3 requires the automaker to assume liability.

Tesla Tells California DMV that FSD Is Not Capable of Autonomous Driving

After years of touting its long-awaited Full Self-Driving feature, Tesla is telling California regulators a different story about its capabilities.

www.caranddriver.com

Just providing some insight to how OEMs label these internally regardless of government regulations. On the scale, I can tell you we do not label it as level 2

 

[Tesla2.0]

Yeah the Nio software is very impressive…and the interface is like a phone. Just a big rectangular iPAD with no aesthetics stuck in the middle of the dash and square icons with a rather small driver dashboard display and even smaller menu icons buried under layers, with almost no buttons. But with a cartoonish Wall-E companion looking at you the whole time? LUXURIOUS! If software is all that matters, then yeah ET7 wins. The Lucid just appears way more elegant and thought out to me, just doesn’t have the layers and layers of features and degree of customization…yet. The Lucid’s back seat appears better though, roof appears better, efficiency is remarkably better, driving dynamics are better, storage space is better, the car looks better… the ET7 does have a good price though and great software features.

I think Lucid beats every car maker out there with 7 zones of screens. Most car only have 1~3 screens to implement.

- Cockpit left panel
- Cockpit right panel
- Instrument Cluster center screen
- Instrument Cluster left screen
- Instrument Cluster right screen
- Pilot panel
- Rear passengers panel

With so many screens and advanced NVidia graphic chip, the software future has so many expansion potential. I bet in 2032, Air will still wow most drivers as “this car already has all that 10 years old ago?”

 

[Bunnylebowski]

I think Lucid beats every car maker out there with 7 zones of screens. Most car only have 1~3 screens to implement.

- Cockpit left panel
- Cockpit right panel
- Instrument Cluster center screen
- Instrument Cluster left screen
- Instrument Cluster right screen
- Pilot panel
- Rear passengers panel

With so many screens and advanced NVidia graphic chip, the software future has so many expansion potential. I bet in 2032, Air will still wow most drivers as “this car already has all that 10 years old ago?”

Yeah, for me at least, ignoring the superior suite of software features the ET7 has, the Nio is actually a testament to how advanced Lucid is as far as efficiency, utilization of space, charging architecture, etc. The Nio wins on software and I guess rear seat climate control, but loses in every other category.

 

[Tesla2.0]

Yeah, for me at least, ignoring the superior suite of software features the ET7 has, the Nio is actually a testament to how advanced Lucid is as far as efficiency, utilization of space, charging architecture, etc. The Nio wins on software and I guess rear seat climate control, but loses in every other category.

I don’t see ET7 is much luxurious. I see it as improved a Polestar 2 without transmission tunnel in skateboard chassis and slightly bigger. It may be luxious compare to Tesla interior cabin.

ET7 doesn’t have faster charging capability bc they are banking on battery swap station as option. I think if ET7 is widely pushed in North America, it may put in big dent on Model-3 sales. I still see Lucid as a class of its own vs Tesla flagship Model-S, Porsche Taycan and MB EQS.

 

[Lucken]

There sure does seem to be a lot of "I WANT WHAT I WANT WHEN I WANT IT" entitlement on here. Y'all know it's not a REQUIREMENT to buy a Lucid, right?! If Tesla or whatever car brand you keep comparing it to is so much better, go get one! Hell, if you need a ride to pick it up I'll take you myself. In my GT that I'm thrilled with.

Sorry, this looks like a post from TMC. Love it or leave it.

 

[Steveinarizona]

I think Airdolt may have had his tongue in cheek but I do agree with what he says. There are many companies making cars and many making BEVs. None are perfect. Some have great after sale experience but lack range; others have range but lack power; some lack heated seats. My point is that the Lucid Air may not be the right vehicle for some folks and we should honor that.