This might shed light on why automakers don’t go “all in” with CarPlay / Android Auto

I am 64
Fair enough, but you don't really have the history quite right.
The legal Bell monopoly broke up in 1984- and the results were mostly reduced prices and a choice of different physical phones which you could actually own (pretty much all of which were worse than the bell phones). Certainly the phone system didn't work any better other than the reduced price. Definitely had to be done and was the right move.
Smart phones were what? 2007? Cell phones were the result of improved technology and the growing wealth of the U.S.
Virtually everyone on the planet has an iPhone or Android device and phone companies work hard on making them work well. People are familiar with the interface.
At a minimum, car manufacturers had best include it in their cars.
I don't see the expense of developing native systems as the type of investment that is likely to differentiate a car to the point it is profitable.
Yeah I kinda knew my historical recount wasn't quite right, but I think you got my point.

Are Apple/Google operating systems considered monopolies? No, but I hope carmakers don't view car/device integration with a monopolistic mindset towards Apple and Google when it comes to customer offerings and product development.

Agree with you on the expense of native systems as being profitable, but with the right partnerships (not listed to Apple and Google), profitability may be possible and thus we owners benefit.
 
People do not always remember things correctly, and those who fill out surveys are a self-selecting group, not necessarily representative of the actual population.

There is a lot of value to be gained in understanding *how* someone uses their vehicle’s infotainment, not just where they are and what speed they’re going. If you use CP/AA, all that data is lost and given to Apple/Google which, as you might have guessed, definitely tracks and mines their data for the same reasons.
There is another angle to this that the article only briefly touched upon. Before I detail it I will explain WHY I know this. Until 2017 I worked at GM. The last 20 years or so were in Product Development, specifically Product Portfolio Planning. And even more specifically Competitor and Technology Intelligence. So my team was focused on understanding what technologies were mature enough for integration into the vehicle as well as providing detail on how competitors were developing their cars, looking 3 - 5 years forward.

One of the things that several of the vehicle teams were concerned with, particularly the teams working on the electrified vehicles, was Apple's anything-but-secret plan to build an EV. At the same time, Apple was developing CarPlay 2.0, now called Ultra. One of the features of Ultra was the ability to allow the customer to define and reconfigure their own instrument panel. This requires unfettered access to the On Board Diagnostics (OBD) data. So, if you're GM and you have a supplier that says "I need access to all the data that tracks vehicle operation...and by the way...I'm working on developing a line of vehicles to compete with yours" the only appropriate response is. "Aww Hell naw". Theoretically, Apple would be able to pull real time data of how GM vehicles are operating in multiple scenarios and use it to jumpstart their own vehicle development efforts. That's where the conversations were when I retired from GM in 2017. This is (IMHO) the roadblock keeping more OEMs from signing on to CP Ultra. Even though Apple has dropped(?) their EV ambitions, providing that level of control, harvesting, and potential manipulation of the vehicle's operational data is a huge red flag.

Another thing to consider is why people are so enamored with AA / CP in the first place. It's primarily because at the inception of those apps, native navigation systems s-u-c-k-e-d horribly. Phone mirroring was a breath of fresh air. The nav system in my 2017 Camaro was really bad at best and CarPlay was a godsend. And the native systems required annual updates via DVD purchased from the OEM. But the native navigation system in my Equinox EV was lightyears beyond that and did about 90% of what CP does. At least the features that I used most. And the navigation was better given that information on EV chargers and communication of expected state of charge upon arriving at destinations was provided elevated (IMHO) the native nav system above what was in CP. But CP has Waze. So does Chevrolet's native system. And the native systems now receive frequent updates. Now native systems offer pretty much everything AA / CP offered and more. I could watch YouTube in my Equinox EV while it was charging. In our Model Y I could watch YouTube and NetFlix. Now, fact of the matter is if I'm sitting at a charger for a long time I could just as easily watch those same services and a bunch of others on my iPad, but whatever. I've heard a lot of people say "but the [native] system doesn't read out text messages or allow me to send texts". I've been able to do that in both the Tesla and the Equinox EV by simply saying "Hey Siri...send text message to Donald Rumsfeld" or"Hey Siri read last text message from Jimmy Kimmel".

Of course my Lucid has AA, CP and native nav. I find myself using the native nav most often. I have Apple Music through CP but as I'm experimenting with Tidal, I listen to that more often than Apple Music. My primary interaction with CP in the Lucid is receiving and reading texts.
 
I was surprised that I couldn't respond to a text by voice in our Air or Gravity. It works very well in our AAOS Volvo, which natively runs Google's Messages app as well as G Maps, Waze, etc. Makes things a little less fluid in the Lucid when driving to meet others.
 
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There is another angle to this that the article only briefly touched upon.

One of the things that several of the vehicle teams were concerned with, particularly the teams working on the electrified vehicles, was Apple's anything-but-secret plan to build an EV. At the same time, Apple was developing CarPlay 2.0, now called Ultra.
Thanks for a very interesting perspective. Did the folks at GM take the idea that Apple was actually going to build a car seriously?
 
The three main issues I have with native apps in the cars are a) lack of support/updates for apps that are deployed when the car ships (not the car software, but the APIs for the ancillary apps), b) often inferior UI for those apps, and c) lack of choice to install my own apps that integrate with the dashboard. The main selling point of CP/AA to the end user was that it could take apps that you used most and put the interface up onto the dashboard in a safe way instead of fumbling around with the phone. And those same apps would receive UI and maintenance updates at the same cadence as they do on the phone. Case in point, the folks at Tidal and Spotify and Sirius have been glacially slow updating and improving their embedded APIs. Agreed, the integration with the car is not as deep, but that's really only applicable to navigation, and CP Ultra is (was?) an attempt to remedy this.
 
Thanks for a very interesting perspective. Did the folks at GM take the idea that Apple was actually going to build a car seriously?
Absolutely. I knew people that Apple hired away from GM, Ford, and several suppliers to support the effort. The metro Detroit area is one big happy automotive family so people from all the car companies and major suppliers all know each other.
 
There is another angle to this that the article only briefly touched upon. Before I detail it I will explain WHY I know this. Until 2017 I worked at GM. The last 20 years or so were in Product Development, specifically Product Portfolio Planning. And even more specifically Competitor and Technology Intelligence. So my team was focused on understanding what technologies were mature enough for integration into the vehicle as well as providing detail on how competitors were developing their cars, looking 3 - 5 years forward.

One of the things that several of the vehicle teams were concerned with, particularly the teams working on the electrified vehicles, was Apple's anything-but-secret plan to build an EV. At the same time, Apple was developing CarPlay 2.0, now called Ultra. One of the features of Ultra was the ability to allow the customer to define and reconfigure their own instrument panel. This requires unfettered access to the On Board Diagnostics (OBD) data. So, if you're GM and you have a supplier that says "I need access to all the data that tracks vehicle operation...and by the way...I'm working on developing a line of vehicles to compete with yours" the only appropriate response is. "Aww Hell naw". Theoretically, Apple would be able to pull real time data of how GM vehicles are operating in multiple scenarios and use it to jumpstart their own vehicle development efforts. That's where the conversations were when I retired from GM in 2017. This is (IMHO) the roadblock keeping more OEMs from signing on to CP Ultra. Even though Apple has dropped(?) their EV ambitions, providing that level of control, harvesting, and potential manipulation of the vehicle's operational data is a huge red flag.

Another thing to consider is why people are so enamored with AA / CP in the first place. It's primarily because at the inception of those apps, native navigation systems s-u-c-k-e-d horribly. Phone mirroring was a breath of fresh air. The nav system in my 2017 Camaro was really bad at best and CarPlay was a godsend. And the native systems required annual updates via DVD purchased from the OEM. But the native navigation system in my Equinox EV was lightyears beyond that and did about 90% of what CP does. At least the features that I used most. And the navigation was better given that information on EV chargers and communication of expected state of charge upon arriving at destinations was provided elevated (IMHO) the native nav system above what was in CP. But CP has Waze. So does Chevrolet's native system. And the native systems now receive frequent updates. Now native systems offer pretty much everything AA / CP offered and more. I could watch YouTube in my Equinox EV while it was charging. In our Model Y I could watch YouTube and NetFlix. Now, fact of the matter is if I'm sitting at a charger for a long time I could just as easily watch those same services and a bunch of others on my iPad, but whatever. I've heard a lot of people say "but the [native] system doesn't read out text messages or allow me to send texts". I've been able to do that in both the Tesla and the Equinox EV by simply saying "Hey Siri...send text message to Donald Rumsfeld" or"Hey Siri read last text message from Jimmy Kimmel".

Of course my Lucid has AA, CP and native nav. I find myself using the native nav most often. I have Apple Music through CP but as I'm experimenting with Tidal, I listen to that more often than Apple Music. My primary interaction with CP in the Lucid is receiving and reading texts.
Thanks for posting this. I could not agree more with every single word you wrote.
 
Thanks for a very interesting perspective. Did the folks at GM take the idea that Apple was actually going to build a car seriously?
Everyone did, because they were actively working on it at the time.
 
The three main issues I have with native apps in the cars are a) lack of support/updates for apps that are deployed when the car ships (not the car software, but the APIs for the ancillary apps), b) often inferior UI for those apps, and c) lack of choice to install my own apps that integrate with the dashboard. The main selling point of CP/AA to the end user was that it could take apps that you used most and put the interface up onto the dashboard in a safe way instead of fumbling around with the phone. And those same apps would receive UI and maintenance updates at the same cadence as they do on the phone. Case in point, the folks at Tidal and Spotify and Sirius have been glacially slow updating and improving their embedded APIs. Agreed, the integration with the car is not as deep, but that's really only applicable to navigation, and CP Ultra is (was?) an attempt to remedy this.
The GM EV products support repositioning of the apps on the Home Screen, as well as placement of several apps "above the line". You can see where I placed Pocket Casts above the line so that I can access it whenever I want. Ignore the red ovals. Those are there because I was trying to illustrate a point in another thread on another site.

EQEV Infotainment Screen.webp
 
Everyone did, because they were actively working on it at the time.
No doubt you are right. My uneducated opinion was to laugh at the idea. Building cars is hard; really hard and the margins aren't great.
 
No doubt you are right. My uneducated opinion was to laugh at the idea. Building cars is hard; really hard and the margins aren't great.
Laughing at Apple’s ability to compete and produce crazy innovation is something many of us learned not to do the hard way. :)
 
Thanks for a very interesting perspective. Did the folks at GM take the idea that Apple was actually going to build a car seriously?
Not being in the auto industry, I certainly would. Apple has hundreds of billions of dollars of cash and could easily fund a car company if that's what they really wanted to do (how much has been spent on Lucid to get this far?). Apple's got fantastic software people and UI folks already and a built in fanatical customer base, so it is not like Apple would be starting completely from scratch.
 
The three main issues I have with native apps in the cars are a) lack of support/updates for apps that are deployed when the car ships (not the car software, but the APIs for the ancillary apps), b) often inferior UI for those apps, and c) lack of choice to install my own apps that integrate with the dashboard. The main selling point of CP/AA to the end user was that it could take apps that you used most and put the interface up onto the dashboard in a safe way instead of fumbling around with the phone. And those same apps would receive UI and maintenance updates at the same cadence as they do on the phone. Case in point, the folks at Tidal and Spotify and Sirius have been glacially slow updating and improving their embedded APIs. Agreed, the integration with the car is not as deep, but that's really only applicable to navigation, and CP Ultra is (was?) an attempt to remedy this.
With the Vehicle as Software approach item a) in your list can easily be overcome (and may already be in the Gravity, does anyone know if the app software is part of the updates?). Heck there could even be an auto appstore. Item b) could also be overcome but would definitely take time and enough volume and data (not sure about the volume on the big 3, but the data part exists but the big 3 don't know how to use the data it seems, time to hire some data warehouse folks from walmart/google/facebook/apple. As for c) see my second sentence above.

It take a will to do these sort of things and it looks like the will isn't there.
 
There is another angle to this that the article only briefly touched upon. Before I detail it I will explain WHY I know this. Until 2017 I worked at GM. The last 20 years or so were in Product Development, specifically Product Portfolio Planning. And even more specifically Competitor and Technology Intelligence. So my team was focused on understanding what technologies were mature enough for integration into the vehicle as well as providing detail on how competitors were developing their cars, looking 3 - 5 years forward.

One of the things that several of the vehicle teams were concerned with, particularly the teams working on the electrified vehicles, was Apple's anything-but-secret plan to build an EV. At the same time, Apple was developing CarPlay 2.0, now called Ultra. One of the features of Ultra was the ability to allow the customer to define and reconfigure their own instrument panel. This requires unfettered access to the On Board Diagnostics (OBD) data. So, if you're GM and you have a supplier that says "I need access to all the data that tracks vehicle operation...and by the way...I'm working on developing a line of vehicles to compete with yours" the only appropriate response is. "Aww Hell naw". Theoretically, Apple would be able to pull real time data of how GM vehicles are operating in multiple scenarios and use it to jumpstart their own vehicle development efforts. That's where the conversations were when I retired from GM in 2017. This is (IMHO) the roadblock keeping more OEMs from signing on to CP Ultra. Even though Apple has dropped(?) their EV ambitions, providing that level of control, harvesting, and potential manipulation of the vehicle's operational data is a huge red flag.

Another thing to consider is why people are so enamored with AA / CP in the first place. It's primarily because at the inception of those apps, native navigation systems s-u-c-k-e-d horribly. Phone mirroring was a breath of fresh air. The nav system in my 2017 Camaro was really bad at best and CarPlay was a godsend. And the native systems required annual updates via DVD purchased from the OEM. But the native navigation system in my Equinox EV was lightyears beyond that and did about 90% of what CP does. At least the features that I used most. And the navigation was better given that information on EV chargers and communication of expected state of charge upon arriving at destinations was provided elevated (IMHO) the native nav system above what was in CP. But CP has Waze. So does Chevrolet's native system. And the native systems now receive frequent updates. Now native systems offer pretty much everything AA / CP offered and more. I could watch YouTube in my Equinox EV while it was charging. In our Model Y I could watch YouTube and NetFlix. Now, fact of the matter is if I'm sitting at a charger for a long time I could just as easily watch those same services and a bunch of others on my iPad, but whatever. I've heard a lot of people say "but the [native] system doesn't read out text messages or allow me to send texts". I've been able to do that in both the Tesla and the Equinox EV by simply saying "Hey Siri...send text message to Donald Rumsfeld" or"Hey Siri read last text message from Jimmy Kimmel".

Of course my Lucid has AA, CP and native nav. I find myself using the native nav most often. I have Apple Music through CP but as I'm experimenting with Tidal, I listen to that more often than Apple Music. My primary interaction with CP in the Lucid is receiving and reading texts.
Interesting perspective, and I mostly agree.

Here’s the thing:

When I’m walking to my car, listening with headphones to a podcast with my third-party podcast app, and I take out my headphones and sit in my Air, my podcast continues exactly where I left off. The meeting I am driving to is already up on my navigation.

That’s simply NEVER going to be possible without CarPlay / Android auto.

And it’s only going to get worse when Siri / Gemini take on more and more AI functionality. My phone knows me in a way my car never will. It’s with me all day long. It’s going to predict what I want with pinpoint accuracy.

So I get why car manufacturers want the data. I’m just not willing to give up my full phone integration. Even if Apple were willing to hand over my personal data to my car, I wouldn’t want them to.
 
...When I’m walking to my car, listening with headphones to a podcast with my third-party podcast app, and I take out my headphones and sit in my Air, my podcast continues exactly where I left off. The meeting I am driving to is already up on my navigation. That’s simply NEVER going to be possible without CarPlay / Android auto...
Agreed, but it is possible for Android users who drive a car based on AAOS with an app store. The car is just like another mobile device signed into your same accounts - except that it also does great EV route planning.
 
Interesting perspective, and I mostly agree.

Here’s the thing:

When I’m walking to my car, listening with headphones to a podcast with my third-party podcast app, and I take out my headphones and sit in my Air, my podcast continues exactly where I left off. The meeting I am driving to is already up on my navigation.

That’s simply NEVER going to be possible without CarPlay / Android auto.

And it’s only going to get worse when Siri / Gemini take on more and more AI functionality. My phone knows me in a way my car never will. It’s with me all day long. It’s going to predict what I want with pinpoint accuracy.

So I get why car manufacturers want the data. I’m just not willing to give up my full phone integration. Even if Apple were willing to hand over my personal data to my car, I wouldn’t want them to.
What if I told you my Equinox EV did exactly the same thing? And it famously does not have Apple CarPlay or Android Auto.
 
as was Sony
Yup. And now that the Sony Honda JV has been dissolved, I can say the following without violating NDA. We did a consulting contract for them to help them work out details on primary and secondary competitors and to give them some guidance on feature content, including recommendations on which Sony properties to leverage for the Afeela 1 vehicle launch.

IMG_0805.webp
IMG_0804.webp
 
What if I told you my Equinox EV did exactly the same thing? And it famously does not have Apple CarPlay or Android Auto.
No it doesn’t. There’s no way it will resume the podcast or music I was just playing exactly where I just left off on my phone.
 
Yup. And now that the Sony Honda JV has been dissolved, I can say the following without violating NDA. We did a consulting contract for them to help them work out details on primary and secondary competitors and to give them some guidance on feature content, including recommendations on which Sony properties to leverage for the Afeela 1 vehicle launch.

View attachment 37728View attachment 37729
From what I remember reading, the specs were not that impressive. Combine that with them being sort of late to the game and the changes in consumer and government sentiment about electrification, and I think that explains why they abandoned the project.
 
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