US carmakers should be terrified, including Lucid

[Saksak]

I was blown away by these Chinese EV’s.

Lucid’s real competition is Chinese EV’s. All US car makers should be terrified. Didn’t we learn from the 1980’s when Japan dominated the global auto market? History is now repeating itself with the Chinese.

 

[socktucker]

China is what America thinks it is

 

[Hammerthyme]

I was swayed in my thinking by SavageGeese's video today:

The cars may look pretty good and may be priced pretty well, even with tariffs and the discontinuance of Chinese government subsidies for their people. The bigger question will be how they build out their ability to sell and service these in America, starting from nothing. Can they provide parts inventories and timely service, while training a small army of people to work on them? Or do you just buy new?

 

[Pragmatic]

China is what America thinks it is

And in a different vein what America is becoming.

 

[hmp10]

The cars may look pretty good and may be priced pretty well, even with tariffs and the discontinuance of Chinese government subsidies for their people. The bigger question will be how they build out their ability to sell and service these in America, starting from nothing. Can they provide parts inventories and timely service, while training a small army of people to work on them? Or do you just buy new?

True. But this is exactly the same issue that Tesla, Rivian, and Lucid have faced . . . and none of them have quite nailed it down just yet. Even now, there are frequent complaints about all three being slow to provide replacement parts and waits for service appointments taking ever longer.

 

[trnhockey]

You forget, BYD has substantial backing from the Chinese government.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

Chinese airbags are also exploding in some cars and causing recalls. Do these EV's contain airbags from those same Chinese companies?

 

[Saksak]

[…] The cars may look pretty good and may be priced pretty well, even with tariffs and the discontinuance of Chinese government subsidies for their people. The bigger question will be how they build out their ability to sell and service these in America, starting from nothing. Can they provide parts inventories and timely service, while training a small army of people to work on them? Or do you just buy new?

These are certainly entry barriers and buys us time. What are we doing with that time?

It doesn’t change the fact that our auto industry is innovating far slower than China and is falling further behind. Japan faced the same barriers in the past. History tells us it’s only a matter of time before those barriers are overcome.

Yes, the Chinese government is subsidizing their EV industry and propelling their companies to the future. Meanwhile, the US has killed our solar/EV initiatives and has instead put up tariffs to protect our inferior products and keep our dinosaurs alive. Which is the better strategy - invest in the future or hang on to the past?

Norway’s new car sales are over 95% EV’s. They are converting gas stations into EV charging stations. The rest of Europe is following, with China now poised to dominate the worldwide EV market outside of the US. I recently stumbled on the video below and am asking myself: what can we do to regain the lead in innovation and be relevant in the global economy?

 

[tmichael]

Chinese airbags are also exploding in some cars and causing recalls. Do these EV's contain airbags from those same Chinese companies?

Are you referring to the DTN inflators used to repair airbags that already went off or are you aware of faulty airbags on cars currently being sold in the US?

 

[hmp10]

These are certainly entry barriers and buys us time. What are we doing with that time?

It doesn’t change the fact that our auto industry is innovating far slower than China and is falling further behind. Japan faced the same barriers in the past. History tells us it’s only a matter of time before those barriers are overcome.

Yes, the Chinese government is subsidizing their EV industry and propelling their companies to the future. Meanwhile, the US has killed our solar/EV initiatives and has instead put up tariffs to protect our inferior products and keep our dinosaurs alive. Which is the better strategy - invest in the future or hang on to the past?

Norway’s new car sales are over 95% EV’s. They are converting gas stations into EV charging stations. The rest of Europe is following, with China now poised to dominate the worldwide EV market outside of the US. I recently stumbled on the video below and am asking myself: what can we do to regain the lead in innovation and be relevant in the global economy?

Not quite 14 years ago, a new U.S. auto company that designed and built its cars in the U.S. seized the global lead in EVs with the advent of the Tesla Model S, stealing a march on Nissan's Leaf and Toyota's Prius (a hybrid) and putting GM's early efforts to shame. It looked like the dawning of a bright new era for the U.S. auto industry and its engineering and manufacturing. Barely a decade later this company was producing the best-selling car in the world.

And where are we today? Destroying that lead just as quickly as it was built with an erratic, unstable, antagonistic entrepreneur unhindered by a compliant Board interested only in their personal gain and electing a government intent on reversing any moves toward electric transportation and alternate energy, thereby openly and proudly surrendering the lead to China and other countries.

It's the saddest spectacle I've seen in my many decades of following the auto industry. When something similar happened in the 1970's with the arrival of Japanese cars on our shores, we at least fought back, even if clumsily for a while. This time we're gleefully putting a torch to our technology future and looking to throw new logs on the bonfire every day.

 

[DeaneG]

...This time we're gleefully putting a torch to our technology future and looking to throw new logs on the bonfire every day.

Medical science is suffering the same fate, and is the loss that scares me.

 

[Saksak]

[…] It's the saddest spectacle I've seen in my many decades of following the auto industry. When something similar happened in the 1970's with the arrival of Japanese cars on our shores, we at least fought back, even if clumsily for a while. […]

Lucid and Rivian are in the fight, but are the underdogs with one hand tied behind their backs with current US consumer sentiment against EV’s and US economic policies. Tesla could rejoin, but is there corporate will and can they overcome worldwide brand damage? Ford’s CEO visited China and came away afraid; I hope he launched a skunk works project.

Detroit: EV’s are not your enemy. It’s your future. We need to do more.

 

[tmichael]

Lucid and Rivian are in the fight, but are the underdogs with one hand tied behind their backs with current US consumer sentiment against EV’s and US economic policies. Tesla could rejoin, but is there corporate will and can they overcome worldwide brand damage? Ford’s CEO visited China and came away afraid; I hope he launched a skunk works project.

Detroit: EV’s are not your enemy. It’s your future. We need to do more.

Yes, he in fact did create a clean sheet skunks work unit working on trying to do anything and everything differently.

“We developed a super-talented ‘Skunk Works’ team to create a low-cost EV platform,” Farley said. “It was a small group, small team, some of the best EV engineers in the world, and it was separate from the Ford mothership.”

 

[RajD]

Lucid and Rivian are in the fight, but are the underdogs with one hand tied behind their backs with current US consumer sentiment against EV’s and US economic policies. Tesla could rejoin, but is there corporate will and can they overcome worldwide brand damage? Ford’s CEO visited China and came away afraid; I hope he launched a skunk works project.

Detroit: EV’s are not your enemy. It’s your future. We need to do more.

Lucid has a chance to create a dominant midsize SUV in the US if they price it correctly. I believe the Chinese EVs will have a very hard time penetrating the US market for the reasons SavageGeese laid out (safety standards, service and parts, etc). But they will probably be the dominant EV globally for a long time.

Sadly, Norway is buying very few Lucids currently. It’s remarkable to me that the Lucid Air, which just won the cold weather range test in Norway again, didn’t sell at all in December, like not a single car. Despite its range performance and general acceptance of the top luxury EV sedan in the US, how is it doing so poorly globally? Is this because of price? Or is Volvo BMW and Chinese competition that much better? Would be great to understand this if someone knows the reasoning.

 

[tmichael]

Sadly, Norway is buying very few Lucids currently. It’s remarkable to me that the Lucid Air, which just won the cold weather range test in Norway again, didn’t sell at all in December, like not a single car. Despite its range performance and general acceptance of the top luxury EV sedan in the US, how is it doing so poorly globally? Is this because of price? Or is Volvo BMW and Chinese competition that much better? Would be great to understand this if someone knows the reasoning.

Norwegian buyers largely skipped Lucids because the cars were too expensive for the segment, the brand is unknown and unproven versus entrenched EV options, and software/ownership concerns made them a poor fit for a hyper‑mature EV market.

 

[DeaneG]

Chinese cars are unavailable in the USA because to 100% tariffs and a ban on cars with Chinese-made software.
A disassembly of Chinese cars shows no miracles of engineering. Lower MSRP is mainly due to a low-cost labor force, low cost of capital, and a well-oiled and competent supply chain.
I can't imagine any president, current or future, allowing Chinese cars in any time soon, unless they were built in the USA with US-made software, like Volvo and Polestar.
Or built and programmed in the EU, like Smart and Lotus.

 

[RajD]

Norwegian buyers largely skipped Lucids because the cars were too expensive for the segment, the brand is unknown and unproven versus entrenched EV options, and software/ownership concerns made them a poor fit for a hyper‑mature EV market.

Ok. It seems more about price than anything. Other than Tesla, the ‘entrenched’ EVs, in my direct ownership experience (BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo) have worse software experiences than Lucid. I’ve actually returned an Audi and Volvo for this reason. So certainly actual reliability on that front isn’t a good reason , but perhaps perceived reliability is. Service centers could be a factor. But if these are concerns they have in Norway, how would Chinese EVs do well there? Brings it back to price as the main barrier. The midsize Lucid could do very well there in that case.

 

[SaratogaLefty]

Are you referring to the DTN inflators used to repair airbags that already went off or are you aware of faulty airbags on cars currently being sold in the US?

These are recent explosions resulting in at least nine deaths. These are faulty replacement airbags.

 

[socktucker]

You forget, BYD has substantial backing from the Chinese government.

Teslas profits are mostly from tax subsidies.

 

[tarator]

Chinese cars are unavailable in the USA because to 100% tariffs and a ban on cars with Chinese-made software.
A disassembly of Chinese cars shows no miracles of engineering. Lower MSRP is mainly due to a low-cost labor force, low cost of capital, and a well-oiled and competent supply chain.
I can't imagine any president, current or future, allowing Chinese cars in any time soon, unless they were built in the USA with US-made software, like Volvo and Polestar.
Or built and programmed in the EU, like Smart and Lotus.

That's only going to lead to American manufacturers getting even more behind the curve. Protectionism never protected anybody in the long run.