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First Grand Touring Review

Neurio

Neurio

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Just read that the 112KW on the Grand Touring will have a 105KW usable capacity
 
If that's true, it pushes the efficiency to 4.91 m/kWh, which is different from the 4.6 m/kWh that Lucid shows on its website.
 
hmp10 said:
If that's true, it pushes the efficiency to 4.91 m/kWh, which is different from the 4.6 m/kWh that Lucid shows on its website.
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That better be the case. Otherwise the range is much less than we expect And I will not be happy
 
hmp10 said:
If that's true, it pushes the efficiency to 4.91 m/kWh, which is different from the 4.6 m/kWh that Lucid shows on its website.
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The EPA range is obtained by measuring how far the car goes on the user accessible capacity of the battery pack, not on the full capacity of the pack. If the EPA test got 516 miles from only 105 kWh, I cannot imagine Lucid wouldn't be claiming an efficiency of 4.9 instead of 4.6. The 4.6 m/kWh is derived from dividing 516 miles by 112 kWh, which I think means 112 kWh is the usable capacity of the pack, not the total capacity.

Also, 105 kWh usable capacity from a 112 kWh battery pack means buffers of just over 6%, which is considerably less than in most EVs. I think the 105 kWh number is fishy . . . but I'm not an engineer and could be wrong.
 
hmp10 said:
Also, 105 kWh usable capacity from a 112 kWh battery pack means buffers of just over 6%, which is considerably less than in most EVs. I think the 105 kWh number is fishy
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I agree something does not seem right about the 105kWhr number.
 
Just addressing whether a 6% buffer seems reasonable - 3 years of Formula E might give Lucid enough confidence in their BMS to go low. Nissan with the new Ariya is going with 3% based on their experience with the Leaf and improvements in their BMS (87 usable, 90 capacity). Nissan chose to cap their max charge rate at 135 kw to protect the battery. Going with a higher buffer would certainly be safer and limit warranty claims on the battery.
 
SDHacker said:
Just addressing whether a 6% buffer seems reasonable - 3 years of Formula E might give Lucid enough confidence in their BMS to go low. Nissan with the new Ariya is going with 3% based on their experience with the Leaf and improvements in their BMS (87 usable, 90 capacity). Nissan chose to cap their max charge rate at 135 kw to protect the battery. Going with a higher buffer would certainly be safer and limit warranty claims on the battery.
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I have read that the Atieva Formula-E pack was engineered for maximum power, not repeated recharging. However, you may well be right that Lucid has cause to use relatively small buffers. In fact, I have speculated that the difference in the 118- and 112-kWh packs may be partly in the buffers, resulting possibly from different charge and discharge tolerances between the Samsung and LG Chem cells.

In any case, though -- and especially if the racing pack really was engineered mainly for power -- I would think Lucid was start out with conservative buffers in the sedan and only raise them as data accumulated from the fleet. One of the worst hits their reputation could take would be to have early and excessive pack deterioration. Also, starting with conservative buffers that could be raised as experience accumulated would offset some of the inevitable loss of storage capacity over time, thereby keeping Lucid closer to its rated range as the car ages. All just my surmise, though.

However, that still leaves the issue that Lucid is calculating an efficiency of 4.6 m/kWh off an EPA rating that requires 112 kWh of usable capacity to get to that efficiency, not total capacity.
 
"InsideEVs" most recent podcast was something of a dump on Lucid. Both Kyle Conner and Tom Moloughney said Lucid was very attentive to them ahead of all the public gala events and assured them that, after production started, they would be given cars on which to conduct thorough range and charge testing. Now that the big Delivery Event is over, they said all they're getting from Lucid is radio silence. They're not getting their messages returned and are beginning to get suspicious that Lucid doesn't have full confidence in the car's performance in real-world testing for range and charge speed. They were both so exercised about the cold shoulder they're getting that they actually got a little belligerent as the discussion wrapped up.

The Lucid segment begins at 1:13:48 . . .

 
The fact that the Bear's Workshop fly-bys have not seen any cars in the shipping lot combined with the lack of availability of press cars leads me to wonder if their production line is experiencing significant issues, as in it's at a complete standstill.

But another explanation, maybe more in keeping with Lucid's focus on quality, is that the parts needed to produce a car truly representative of the finished product for press review simply aren't available yet. The Motor Trend review of the AGT referenced parts that weren't up to standard in the interior and that these parts were in the process of being upgraded.

While Lucid has shown the ability to keep its promises (albeit until the very last possible moment), they've also shown that they're not the best at keeping open, free-flowing channels of communication. Part of this may be the need to focus on production above all else. But also part of it may be protecting its stock price as much as possible to maximize its financial options to stay afloat. At this point, the downside of a negative review outweighs the downside of keeping silent.

Rivian is in a similar situation with production at a standstill (aside from a deliberate strategy of delivering R1Ts to employees only), but their silence on the gender discrimination suit speaks volumes more than if they would publicly comment on it.
 
Kyle does make some valid points. It is amazing that no independent testing has taken place while the car is already in the hands of the first owners. Very odd.

Oh well, I still have a deposit down on the upcoming BMW I4 too.
 
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hmp10 said:
"InsideEVs" most recent podcast was something of a dump on Lucid. Both Kyle Conner and Tom Moloughney said Lucid was very attentive to them ahead of all the public gala events and assured them that, after production started, they would be given cars on which to conduct thorough range and charge testing. Now that the big Delivery Event is over, they said all they're getting from Lucid is radio silence. They're not getting their messages returned and are beginning to get suspicious that Lucid doesn't have full confidence in the car's performance in real-world testing for range and charge speed. They were both so exercised about the cold shoulder they're getting that they actually got a little belligerent as the discussion wrapped up.

The Lucid segment begins at 1:13:48 . . .

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Seems ironic coming from two major Tesla fans. In order to perform tests on new Tesla models they need to borrow them from a viewer or rent them on Turo.

I doubt Lucid is hiding anything. They have quite a bit on their plate at the moment
 
They have turned over a Grand Touring to "Motor Trend" for an independent review. It does leave the question of why not to other prominent EV news outlets.

I hope Lucid is not taking Tesla as an example of how to handle the press . . . or customers.
 
manitou202 said:
Seems ironic coming from two major Tesla fans. In order to perform tests on new Tesla models they need to borrow them from a viewer or rent them on Turo.

I doubt Lucid is hiding anything. They have quite a bit on their plate at the moment
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A bad review at this stage in the game won't hurt Mercedes or Volkswagen. Lucid is vulnerable the same as Tesla. Although Tesla is doing well to me they are still a tad bit vulnerable. EV are only 5% of new cars?
 
manitou202 said:
Seems ironic coming from two major Tesla fans.
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Both Conner and Moloughney are fans of a wide array of EVs. In fact, Conner recently ordered a Porsche Cross Turismo EV to replace his Tesla. He also came down hard on the Tesla Model S Plaid for poor handling unbefitting the car's speed and the unwieldiness of the yoke steering. Moloughney has given very favorable reviews to other brands, including Lucid.
 
Dortreo said:
The fact that the Bear's Workshop fly-bys have not seen any cars in the shipping lot combined with the lack of availability of press cars leads me to wonder if their production line is experiencing significant issues, as in it's at a complete standstill.
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I would not read anything into the fact that Bear's Workshop or any other flyover has not seen any cars. The current factory footprint can support production of 50k cars per year, Lucid is only planning 20k next year. This implies there is likely space to keep 50 or more completed cars inside. I don't think it takes very long to load 8 to 10 cars on a carrier so unless someone is very lucky, they are not going to see anything. We will not see cars staged outside unless Lucid wants us to see them or they are producing 50 or more cars per day.

hmp10 said:
Both Conner and Moloughney are fans of a wide array of EVs. In fact, Conner recently ordered a Porsche Cross Turismo EV to replace his Tesla. He also came down hard on the Tesla Model S Plaid for poor handling unbefitting the car's speed and the unwieldiness of the yoke steering. Moloughney has given very favorable reviews to other brands, including Lucid.
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I think Conner and Moloughney were whining a bit. Keep in mind that every time Peter Rawlinson is on with a stock analyst, he always says that he is competing with Mercedes, BMW and other luxury ICE brands. Most ICE drivers have never heard of Conner and Moloughney or InsideEVs and probably would not value their review. That is not a dig at Conner and Moloughney, it is just a matter of who knows them. People who follow EVs, including me, think very highly of them and would really like to see their review. However, it is consistent with Lucid's strategy to give review cars to the legacy autmotive journalist first.
 
Adnillien said:
I think Conner and Moloughney were whining a bit . . . . However, it is consistent with Lucid's strategy to give review cars to the legacy automotive journalists first.
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As I posted elsewhere, I did think Conner and Moloughney were a little petulant in their complaints.

However, Lucid does not seem to be doing much with the legacy auto press, either, other than "Motor Trend", which is giving Lucid the most glowing reviews. It was Kim Reynolds of "Motor Trend" that was taken along for an all-day range test in August 2020. It was Jonny Lieberman of "Motor Trend" who interviewed Derek Jenkins at the September 2020 Global Reveal and who, instead of asking any probing questions, just handed the mic over to Jenkins to hold forth with whatever he chose to tell us about the car. It was that same Jonny Lieberman who was given a Dream Range car for two days of semi-independent test driving. And now it's "Motor Trend" who has been given the first lengthy, unsupervised stint in a Grand Touring.

The other major legacy reviewers, including "Car & Driver", "Edmunds", and "Road & Track", have been given nothing like the access to the car that "Motor Trend" has been given. And some, most pointedly "Edmunds", have commented on the inadequate access to the car to allow them to comment more authoritatively on it.

I think Lucid needs to keep an eye on resentment that might be brewing among the auto press at this lopsided availability of the car . . . and on the risk that Lucid becomes perceived as granting preferential access to certain outlets in an attempt to control outcomes.
 
I think this is another inadvertent downside of the "Dream Edition." By it not being the retail car the press needs to get the AGT which have yet to come off the line. So, I don't think resentment would be properly placed until some time after then.

Who knows, they could have them, just embargoed until they come off the line.

Would you want to read a rave Car & Driver review of the Dream for the article to end with "but you can't get one..."
 
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