Tesla discontinues lane centering from Autopilot: TechCrunch

[hmp10]

If they actually removed features from your car that previously worked, that sounds like a good law suit.

There were such claims. Tesla's response was that you don't actually purchase these things you paid for. You lease them on terms that Tesla can change at their discretion -- including core content -- according to fine print buried deep in lengthy "terms and conditions" documents.

Our original Enhanced Autopilot would accept any cruise speed setting you entered. That was later reduced to 5 miles over the posted speed limit -- a speed that would keep you traveling at well below the prevailing speeds on most Florida highways, thus rendering the feature virtually useless for highway travel. The automatic steering originally operated on most of the secondary roads in our area. It was later geo-fenced to operate only on major highways, with secondary road use migrated over to FSD. Automatic lane changes (activated by turn signals) was added to Enhanced Autopilot when the software became available but then removed from Enhanced Autopilot and migrated over to FSD.

The longer we drove the car, the less and less ADAS capability it had. In short, it reverted back to the most basic features that had been included in standard Autopilot, causing us to lose the whole purpose of paying the $3,000 for Enhanced Autopilot in the first place.

 

[martinjlm]

I would wager that they can't sell FSD for almost any price, because its not that great and 99% of people are perfectly fine with Autopilot. So they make Autopilot part of FSD and pretend like people are buying FSD.

Sort of like MS "CoPilot". People don't want it, so they just install it on all the computers before you buy it.

I would have to disagree with the conclusion you draw here. Having a Tesla and a Tesla driver in my household, I spend a lot of time on Tesla's version of this forum. I have been surprised by the number of owners on that page that either opted for a Tesla over other brands because of FSD (even many who detest Herr Musk). My wife subscribes to the $99/month plan. Originally it was to be just for the winter months so that she could summon the car from the parking lot at her gym. She hasn't canceled it in a year and a half. There are also a large number of owners who won't consider any brand that doesn't have similar functionality. And for now that is only Tesla. They don't consider GM's SuperCruise to be a worthy competitor (it is) because of the mapped roads thing and not being able to go door-to-door. DDP is close to SuperCruise with the exception of automatic lane changes.

I catch a lot of flack on that site because I have been critical of FSD since, like Autopilot, it is poorly named. I must admit that over the many months that we've been subscribed to it it has improved dramatically. It actually works great. Don't tell the folks on the Tesla owners forum I said that, it'll ruin my rep. The only use case that still fails miserably is when I use the Model Y to transport bikes. My daily, the Equinox EV, doesn't have a tow kit and since it's a lease I'm not adding one. When there is a bike mounted to the back of the Model Y it drives like a drunken teenager. After having it try to kill me a couple times I realized that since it is a camera-only system, the bikes and/or the carrier must be confusing one of the cameras. So I don't use FSD if I have a bike on it. What I find dissapointing is that for a long time, the car's systems did not tell me that a camera was compromised or, even better, tell me that I cannot use FSD at this time. It let me use it. That has changed in recent updates. It does say that camera performance is compromised.

But back to the point, FSD is high on the list of reasons for purchase for Tesla buyers and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[LVAGT]

Strongly encouraged anyone who hasn't tried the FSD 14+ software to just give it a shot. You can pretty easily do a demo drive without any sales person in present. I consider anything before FSD 14+ trash and not worthy of $100/month. In the current state, it's actually quite remarkable and well worth the $100/month. Just give it a try before completely shutting it down. I, too, thought FSD was a gimmick until I really tried it for a month with the new software. I was genuinely impressed. It does 98% of all my driving now, just gotta keep my eyes on the road.

 

[tarator]

Strongly encouraged anyone who hasn't tried the FSD 14+ software to just give it a shot. You can pretty easily do a demo drive without any sales person in present. I consider anything before FSD 14+ trash and not worthy of $100/month. In the current state, it's actually quite remarkable and well worth the $100/month. Just give it a try before completely shutting it down. I, too, thought FSD was a gimmick until I really tried it for a month with the new software. I was genuinely impressed. It does 98% of all my driving now, just gotta keep my eyes on the road.

I gave it a shot about a year ago before I sold my Tesla. It tried to kill me only twice during a 750 mile trip, so that might have been an improvement.

 

[martinjlm]

I gave it a shot about a year ago before I sold my Tesla. It tried to kill me only twice during a 750 mile trip, so that might have been an improvement.

About a year ago it sucked. Within the past 5 - 8 months, as they pushed out version 14.X it did pretty much everything they advertised 10 years ago. It's supervised, meaning you can't get in the back seat and let 'er rip, but you can go from inside the garage to a parking lot parking space without ever touching the wheel. My wife has done it. And I'm speaking as someone who about a year ago had it try to merge into the left lane as a state trooper was approaching from behind at roughly 100 mph, lights and siren.

We're on version 14.2.2.2

 

[Smorgasbord]

There were such claims. Tesla's response was that you don't actually purchase these things you paid for.

So, no actual lawsuits, just people claiming/complaining? I looked but couldn't find any lawsuits.

I do remember the speed limit thing, but I think that was some safety nanny complaining and forcing Tesla to be "safer," and hard to sue over. But, if things like auto lane change went away - and I'm not saying they didn't go away - that seems worthy of a lawsuit. Too late now, I suspect.

A well-known Tesla fanboi just posted this (quoting from a Tesla earnings call):

https://twitter.com/x/status/2015155341902950755

To which Elon responded: "Yeah." And so, if Tesla is going to make purchasers of FSD with HW3 vehicles whole for free, that's yet another reason for Tesla to stop selling FSD and only "rent" it out (aka subscribe). You would have to pay the $8k now (by Feb 14th) get buy FSD to get your "free" upgrade if it turns out to be needed - and who determines whether it's needed or not is Tesla, so you're probably screwed either way. By not letting more people buy FSD, Tesla has potentially less upgrades to perform if needed, and who knows the timing on that, anyway?

 

[tarator]

About a year ago it sucked. Within the past 5 - 8 months, as they pushed out version 14.X it did pretty much everything they advertised 10 years ago. It's supervised, meaning you can't get in the back seat and let 'er rip, but you can go from inside the garage to a parking lot parking space without ever touching the wheel. My wife has done it. And I'm speaking as someone who about a year ago had it try to merge into the left lane as a state trooper was approaching from behind at roughly 100 mph, lights and siren.

We're on version 14.2.2.2

I've heard that FOR YEARS. It always sucked a year ago, and it is always perfect now. Then I try it, and it tries to kill me.

I've relatively recently had the "pleasure" to teach my younger son how to drive. It's very similar feeling to "supervising" FSD. Definitely not fun.

 

[Smorgasbord]

I've heard that FOR YEARS. It always sucked a year ago, and it is always perfect now. Then I try it, and it tries to kill me.

I remember the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
He eventually did see the wolf, but people didn't believe him by then.
Elon is that boy here.

 

[tarator]

BTW, did they figure out the phantom braking problem yet? No? I thought so.

 

[martinjlm]

I remember the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
He eventually did see the wolf, but people didn't believe him by then.
Elon is that boy here.

Agreed. I was definitely one of the harshest critics of FSD. First of all the name is a lie. Same with Autopilot. But having lived with a Model Y for a couple of years and witnessing it getting better and better with each OTA I can say I trust it now. Unless I'm towing bikes. That's when it tried to kill me.

Sorta like DDP when you think about it. Took awhile for it to arrive and a bit longer for it to be really good.

 

[Smorgasbord]

BTW, did they figure out the phantom braking problem yet? No?

Yes, they did!

FSD never phantom braked for the month/several hundred miles we had it.

 

[martinjlm]

BTW, did they figure out the phantom braking problem yet? No? I thought so.

From what I understand Phantom Braking is/was an issue with AutoPilot, not FSD. They are built on different software stacks. Don't know if they ever fixed it for AP. We've had our MY since November '23. I don't think we ever had an incident of Phantom Braking.

 

[socktucker]

I would have to disagree with the conclusion you draw here. Having a Tesla and a Tesla driver in my household, I spend a lot of time on Tesla's version of this forum. I have been surprised by the number of owners on that page that either opted for a Tesla over other brands because of FSD (even many who detest Herr Musk). My wife subscribes to the $99/month plan. Originally it was to be just for the winter months so that she could summon the car from the parking lot at her gym. She hasn't canceled it in a year and a half. There are also a large number of owners who won't consider any brand that doesn't have similar functionality. And for now that is only Tesla. They don't consider GM's SuperCruise to be a worthy competitor (it is) because of the mapped roads thing and not being able to go door-to-door. DDP is close to SuperCruise with the exception of automatic lane changes.

I catch a lot of flack on that site because I have been critical of FSD since, like Autopilot, it is poorly named. I must admit that over the many months that we've been subscribed to it it has improved dramatically. It actually works great. Don't tell the folks on the Tesla owners forum I said that, it'll ruin my rep. The only use case that still fails miserably is when I use the Model Y to transport bikes. My daily, the Equinox EV, doesn't have a tow kit and since it's a lease I'm not adding one. When there is a bike mounted to the back of the Model Y it drives like a drunken teenager. After having it try to kill me a couple times I realized that since it is a camera-only system, the bikes and/or the carrier must be confusing one of the cameras. So I don't use FSD if I have a bike on it. What I find dissapointing is that for a long time, the car's systems did not tell me that a camera was compromised or, even better, tell me that I cannot use FSD at this time. It let me use it. That has changed in recent updates. It does say that camera performance is compromised.

But back to the point, FSD is high on the list of reasons for purchase for Tesla buyers and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

It’s not poorly named, it’s deceptively named.

I have two Teslas as well, for now, FAD must be much better in larger areas. I’ll admit the last trial was better than ever, but Autopilot is fine and it still had issues here.

 

[gavram]

I briefly rode in my neighbors Tesla recently with FSD on & I was surprised at how it’s good, but not great. I was expecting great.

The main issues were that he kept having to hit the accelerator at certain stops as it was too hesitant & it did a pretty significant phantom brake on a backroad right as we crossed the city line. Otherwise it seemed to do okay but he said he doesn’t use it around town because there have been too many manual interventions needed at the last second…highway worked well he said.

I think Lucid having Hands Free lane centering with radar cruise is the perfect in–between (for me). I’ve used it on some long drives with good results. They just need to improve the tendency to briefly pull toward off ramps in the right lane.

 

[hmp10]

So, no actual lawsuits, just people claiming/complaining? I looked but couldn't find any lawsuits.

From a Google search:

"Tesla is facing multiple lawsuits regarding its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (FSD) features, with allegations focusing on deceptive marketing, failure to deliver promised capabilities, and, in some instances, the reduction or removal of functionality via over-the-air updates". [my emphasis]

 

[LVAGT]

I briefly rode in my neighbors Tesla recently with FSD on & I was surprised at how it’s good, but not great. I was expecting great.

The main issues were that he kept having to hit the accelerator at certain stops as it was too hesitant & it did a pretty significant phantom brake on a backroad right as we crossed the city line. Otherwise it seemed to do okay but he said he doesn’t use it around town because there have been too many manual interventions needed at the last second…highway worked well he said.

I think Lucid having Hands Free lane centering with radar cruise is the perfect in–between (for me). I’ve used it on some long drives with good results. They just need to improve the tendency to briefly pull toward off ramps in the right lane.

Yeah, your neighbor most likely has the HW3 with FSD 12 software. Again, the FSD does not get significantly better for me until the FSD 14 software, which is about 3 to 5 months ago, I think?

That's the dumb thing about cars these days, just reminds me of Apple back in the 2010s. You have to upgrade every couple of years to get the best techs. But cars aren't cheap by any means. The HW4 came out around 2023; only those can be upgraded to the FSD 14 software. Which is why I chose to pay a bit more premium to just lease, YOLO!

 

[petergottlieb]

99 a month? That's a lot of money.

Yeah, more than I would pay... I'm definitely toward the "cheaper" end of the new electric car market, particularly for Lucid, but $99, even for a good feature, would meaningfully add to my monthly transportation expenses.

I am also impressed with what FSD can do, but I'm horrified by its failures... It feels like a trap to me at the moment. It's so good it doesn't seem like you need to pay attention, and after a while, I probably wouldn't, but the data suggests it's still not nearly as safe as, well, me actually driving. Until that delta is bridged it's dangerous to me and I'm better to stay away from it.

Also, Lucid, add Lane Centering to Dream Drive Premium! (my version of Carthago Delenda Est)...

 

[martinjlm]

Yeah, your neighbor most likely has the HW3 with FSD 12 software. Again, the FSD does not get significantly better for me until the FSD 14 software, which is about 3 to 5 months ago, I think?

That's the dumb thing about cars these days, just reminds me of Apple back in the 2010s. You have to upgrade every couple of years to get the best techs. But cars aren't cheap by any means. The HW4 came out around 2023; only those can be upgraded to the FSD 14 software. Which is why I chose to pay a bit more premium to just lease, YOLO!

Our Model Y is a 2023 with HW4 and is on FSD 14.2.2.2...and it's nickname is YOLO.

 

[illopp00]

From what I understand Phantom Braking is/was an issue with AutoPilot, not FSD. They are built on different software stacks. Don't know if they ever fixed it for AP. We've had our MY since November '23. I don't think we ever had an incident of Phantom Braking.

Correct, I think ultimately, they could have handled it better, but it's EOL an old tech stack they no longer want to support (this is proper tech debt maintenance and cleanup). I don't see why they couldn't create a lower tiered de-featured from FSD which just does lane centering.

 

[Smorgasbord]

From a Google search:

"Tesla is facing multiple lawsuits regarding its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (FSD) features, with allegations focusing on deceptive marketing, failure to deliver promised capabilities, and, in some instances, the reduction or removal of functionality via over-the-air updates". [my emphasis]

I still can't find a single lawsuit, much less an article citing any lawsuits. I even entered your AI text from above and didn't get a single suitable link. Just some on the removal of radar and USS, not on actual software features removed. I'm not saying you're wrong - just that the data isn't available online that I could find.

This video is a pretty good summarr/speculation as to why Tesla made this change:

His reasoning can be summarized as:
• Maintaining two codes bases is harder; AP was never ported to CyberTruck, and Tesla thinks the future is FSD.
• The CA DMV lawsuit on the naming/branding that led to CA regulators issuing new rules (change name/marketing or assume L3 responsibility).
• He discounts Elon's pay package terms as a reason, although he allows for it at the end.

He's mostly a Rivian channel, and perhaps unsurprisingly, touts the Rivian solution method as superior, avoiding the question of performance IRL.

But, I do think he's spot on with the two code base reasoning, and I'll add that Elon lives in the future, but almost always gets the timing wrong. He forced the removal of radar and USS before the software was ready, and it turned out to be around a year before it was ready. He's also killed the development of new Tesla vehicles, claiming that UFSD will make those obsolete before they're ready. But, as usual, he'll be wrong on the timing, probably measured in years, not months. Tesla will continue to suffer for a while as a result, but it's got a strong enough balance sheet to survive Elon being way too optimistic.

BTW, if you do take a trial of FSD(Supervised), make sure you look at the settings and choose the one that makes sense for you. Upthread someone reported that it was too slow to get going, and that could be because it was in "sloth" or "chill" instead of "standard" or "hurry." There's even a "Mad Max" if you're really impatient and are paying close attention. Also note that regulators previously ruled that Tesla wasn't doing "full stops" at stop signs (they wanted more than a millisecond of stopping, even though the law doesn't say that), so FSD does full stops behind the white line, then creeps forward to see, and then finally goes. It's like it's taking a DMV driving test, but that's what regulators have decided it needs to do, not Tesla's fault.