It’s All About the Range And Charging Speed

[Bbq9]

I also read that story which was more realistic than the other terrible one from I forget which publication (Business Insider maybe?).

shockingly it was Bloomberg

 

[Volund]

on a trip I would not want to plan for arriving with less than 20% SOC and even higher if fast charging in the area was lacking.

Thank you for getting back to my question!
So if I'm doing the estimations properly, if I leave with 95% state of charge at 406 mi projected range at 380 (considering EPA, real world numbers at about 95%)

This would mean that I would arrive at a station at about 75 miles of range left so that means I have about a usable 300 miles per 100% state of charge in the Lucid Touring and I should plan for about 300 miles on a full charge and look for charging stations in between to plan my route.
Does that sound right or am I totally off?

I assume that most traditional ICE buyers use the mpg more as comparison and generally accept EPA mpg to be slightly lower in real world usage. Most are transitioning from ICE to EV so I'm assuming that mentally (that EPA estimate is reasonably accurate) carries over when looking at EV EPA range. Doing a "ev epa vs actual range" search alone will show a bunch of sites doing 100-0% tests which give results close to the EPA range and confirm the impression EPA range can generally be trusted like with ICE. Discussions about considering battery degradation and keeping around 10% charge when planning for trips aren't as visible. When reality hits to EV range, people who have not done their deep research will be in for a shock.

Charging is a whole different topic. I'm seeing more posts about broken stations either not charging at all or charging very slow... Again, deep digging is required to also realize that not all EV cars can charge at the same rate. We never have to think about gas pump speed for ICE. So this info can fall under things "people dont know that they dont know."

Also there's really no incentive for EV companies to educate consumers about these factors.

That's a great point about gas pumping speeds, and this EPA mpg thing is something I'm really trying to plan in to my trips

I think you are right. Since this is my first EV, I still try to compare by how many miles get until I need a charge/fill-up. So, mostly, I only know how I am doing when I take a longer trip. I still don’t quite understand the kwh everyone always talks about. Think it would help the public, including me to have a kwh for dummies to understand what that means better and how well you are doing.

If I understand it correctly (I'm also new at this) 88 kwh for the Lucid Touring, meaning that if you're driving, you want to be as low as possible so that you're efficient and using least amount of kwh/1 mile
I think..
So if I'm at like 0.3 kwh in my driving efficiency, then I'll get about 293 miles given that rate of discharge
Someone correct me if I'm wrong

 

[OCDC]

I agree if you drive like the EPA expects. But our highways here are mostly 65 mph and if I drive 75 mph I am being passed by more cars than I am passing. The EPA also assumes a more relaxed take off, etc. The EPA standard is not absurd (which the Euro standard is) and probably works well for an economy BEV but for a performance BEV, I think one needs to adjust ones expectations.

I mentioned this in another post; I think the manufacturers should be made to publish results from both the 2-cycle and 5-cycle tests, effectively bracketing what range we can expect. The 5-cycle seems to highlight the best case scenario under ideal conditions (similar to EPA highway, what Tesla and Lucid use), and the 2-cycle test is a much more conservative estimate (what most everyone else uses).

I know in my personal commute, even the city EPA rating is better than I can actually get. I commute 12 miles each way, down and up across a valley, through 24+ stoplights, and zero highway. It's a cold day in hell when I get even the published 19mpg city during the week.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

To your last point, I'm kind of hesitant to arrive at a charging station too low unless I have a guarantee that it will charge without problems.
Because EA Charging stations are iffy I hear, what do you think?

Also what would the ideal battery % be when approaching a 300kw+ charger like EA?

20% or less for 350kw charger. When preconditioned and 16% SOC I hit 301kw peak power on an EA 350 charger in Albany NY.

I’d read this article separately and thought the same things you guys have said. While it’s 100% true the non-Tesla infrastructure needs improvement, with very little research and attempts to educate yourself about EVs you can figure out that between plug-share and ABRP you can save soooooo much time and frustration. The biggest mistake these drivers made was they kept going to car dealer chargers which are almost always dumped in as an afterthought, not maintained and always slower than advertised. They would have been fine had they just planned around EA/EVGo/Chargepoint fast chargers only, they just didn’t put in the effort to learn which chargers are the best and that you should never charge above 80% if you have another fast charger you can reach before you get below 15-20%. That approach alone could have saved them hours.

 

[eherlihy1]

Glad I stumbled into this thread. This has been on my mind lately, as I wait for any update on my Pure reservation. I've been told Q3 (yeah, right - I am planning on Q1 of 2023).

Here is my scenario: I am a snowbird, with a winter home in Fort Myers, Florida, and a condo just outside of Boston, MA. Every six months or so, I drive my Toyota Tacoma (20 MPG - 420 mile range) or Toyota Avalon (25 MPG - 450 mile range) from one destination to the other. That's approximately 1600 miles, over 3 travel days. I typically drive ~500 mile stretches every day, which means that I stop for 15 minutes to fill the tank once during the drive at between 380 and 400 miles, and then top the tank off at the end of the day.

[EDIT] Also; I will NEVER again drive over the GW Bridge - NEVER! I also STRONGLY prefer to go the inland route for most of the trip north: 95N to 26N toward Columbia SC, to 77N to Dublin, VA to 81N through Harrisburg, PA to 78N to 287, across the Tappan Zee (or whomever it has been renamed to) to 95N.[/EDIT]

How should I plan this out with a Lucid Air Pure? Do I plan to stop after 324 miles (80% of 406 miles), and then top off at the end of the day? Should the planned stop be sooner, later? What about preconditioning the battery? Do I do this before every charging stop of the trip? Will pre-conditioning affect the range during the trip? Will making this trip affect the overall life of the battery pack?

I wish that Lucid would offer Battery As A Service, as NIO and Gogoro do with their cars and scooters in China. The idea of pulling into a station, and having a newer freshly charged battery swapped into my vehicle in about 5 minutes is VERY appealing to me.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Thank you for getting back to my question!
So if I'm doing the estimations properly, if I leave with 95% state of charge at 406 mi projected range at 380 (considering EPA, real world numbers at about 95%)

This would mean that I would arrive at a station at about 75 miles of range left so that means I have about a usable 300 miles per 100% state of charge in the Lucid Touring and I should plan for about 300 miles on a full charge and look for charging stations in between to plan my route.
Does that sound right or am I totally off?


That's a great point about gas pumping speeds, and this EPA mpg thing is something I'm really trying to plan in to my trips

If I understand it correctly (I'm also new at this) 88 kwh for the Lucid Touring, meaning that if you're driving, you want to be as low as possible so that you're efficient and using least amount of kwh/1 mile
I think..
So if I'm at like 0.3 kwh in my driving efficiency, then I'll get about 293 miles given that rate of discharge
Someone correct me if I'm wrong

To be most efficient and save the most time you should charge the touring to max 320 miles of range, then when you get down to 80 miles of range do battery precondition and find nearest EA fast charger, making sure it’s working by looking it up on Plug-Share before you head to the charger. Same goes for the Pure. If you try to “top-off” above 80% frequently you’ll waste a ton of time since it charges slower at that end of the curve. Tom Moloughney’s charging curve video of the car is super helpful, even though it’s the smaller battery pack you have I’d expect it would perform similarly.

 

[DJL]

20% or less for 350kw charger. When preconditioned and 16% SOC I hit 301kw peak power on an EA 350 charger in Albany NY.

I’d read this article separately and thought the same things you guys have said. While it’s 100% true the non-Tesla infrastructure needs improvement, with very little research and attempts to educate yourself about EVs you can figure out that between plug-share and ABRP you can save soooooo much time and frustration. The biggest mistake these drivers made was they kept going to car dealer chargers which are almost always dumped in as an afterthought, not maintained and always slower than advertised. They would have been fine had they just planned around EA/EVGo/Chargepoint fast chargers only, they just didn’t put in the effort to learn which chargers are the best and that you should never charge above 80% if you have another fast charger you can reach before you get below 15-20%. That approach alone could have saved them hours.

I agree fully and that was the point behind starting this string. Peolple need to be educated on how to drive an EV as it is so much different than an ICE car, especially when it come to long trips. Day to day usage, driving to and fro locally and then charging at night is not a big deal. Fortunately, that is the driving most people do 95+% of the time. However, when they blindly take off on a long distance trip, they will face a new reality. Through my 72 plus years of life, I have found that most people do not do much planning. Until AI steps in and walks people by the hand on their long distance drives, they will be in for a shock. Now, I understand that some EVs (and Telsa is leading the pack on this one) will chart out one's charging plan for long distance drives. However, I am not aware if any of the EVs also estimate the time needed to charge and to what level is best to minize the time at a charging station to have enough battery charge to get to the next charging station. It is like Google Maps: it plots out your trip and gives you an estimated trip duration. But it is up to you to adjust the trip duration to allow for charging, pee breaks, meals, and any other stops you may have. The future EV drivers will have to learn all of this to avoid the horrible mess the reporter went through on her trip NO - Chi and return trip

 

[HC_79]

To your last point, I'm kind of hesitant to arrive at a charging station too low unless I have a guarantee that it will charge without problems.
Because EA Charging stations are iffy I hear, what do you think?

I've had many issues with EA where i've had to call them numerous times to get a charger working properly. As frustrating as it is having to call them, to their credit i've never been left stranded as they've managed to get the charger working remotely (most times it just needs a reboot). I told them if the chargers are so sh*t that a reboot fixes them 95% of the time then they should put a reset button in the menu so users can do it themselves rather than have to call. Clearly, that request has been ignored though

Also what would the ideal battery % be when approaching a 300kw+ charger like EA?

To get 300Kw+ I would suspect you have to pull in probably under 10%. Might need to watch Tom's video to see what SoC % it starts to taper off into the 200's

 

[DJL]

I've had many issues with EA where i've had to call them numerous times to get a charger working properly. As frustrating as it is having to call them, to their credit i've never been left stranded as they've managed to get the charger working remotely (most times it just needs a reboot). I told them if the chargers are so sh*t that a reboot fixes them 95% of the time then they should put a reset button in the menu so users can do it themselves rather than have to call. Clearly, that request has been ignored though



To get 300Kw+ I would suspect you have to pull in probably under 10%. Might need to watch Tom's video to see what SoC % it starts to taper off into the 200's

Another way to look at this is to ask the question: how low of a battery charge do you feel comfortable being at when you arrive not knowing what is actually availalble and working?

 

[Bus Driver]

20% or less for 350kw charger. When preconditioned and 16% SOC I hit 301kw peak power on an EA 350 charger in Albany NY.

I’d read this article separately and thought the same things you guys have said. While it’s 100% true the non-Tesla infrastructure needs improvement, with very little research and attempts to educate yourself about EVs you can figure out that between plug-share and ABRP you can save soooooo much time and frustration. The biggest mistake these drivers made was they kept going to car dealer chargers which are almost always dumped in as an afterthought, not maintained and always slower than advertised. They would have been fine had they just planned around EA/EVGo/Chargepoint fast chargers only, they just didn’t put in the effort to learn which chargers are the best and that you should never charge above 80% if you have another fast charger you can reach before you get below 15-20%. That approach alone could have saved them hours.

Exactly. Another forum member took offense when I referred to these newbie EV motorist journalists as “bimbos”. Well, in not educating themselves beforehand, in not planning ahead (something they should have done considering the relative paucity of suitable charging stations), and in presuming that that their motoring habits would carry over pretty much wholesale to EV road-tripping, they kind of were.

The reason I bridled at that article was because the authors were publicising to a clueless larger public, their less than satisfactory experience with EV motoring. Their story made it appear that the problems and delays they experienced were the fault of our EV infrastructure. I refuse to believe that that was the case. The problems they confronted were almost all of their own making. Practically all of them could have been avoided had they researched and planned a lot better.

So as to give undoubtedly hesitant consumers (and late EV adopters), an even handed perspective on EV road tripping, the more responsible thing to have done was to cop to poor planning. Another thing these journalists could have done was educate themselves by checking out the ever growing number of EV trip planning apps (ABRP being just one example), watching youtube videos from the most credible and knowledgeable youtubers in the EV universe, and then applying what they learned on their road trip. They could have written about what they had learned and observed in their article. Their article would have served a useful purpose had they done that.

Instead, in dramatic and sensational but ultimately tiresome fashion, they blamed their problems on the EV charging network.

 

[Adnillien]

To get 300Kw+ I would suspect you have to pull in probably under 10%. Might need to watch Tom's video to see what SoC % it starts to taper off into the 200's

The curve Tom shows tapers down quickly but probably for thermal reasons rather than any other reason. Hence, you may be actually be able to pull max power even at a higher SOC than Tom's curve would suggest.

There are three things limiting charging speed and without knowing the details of the Lucid system it is hard to tell where the limitation is. Here is what I think of as the limiting charging speed.

1. Current supply from the charger or the onboard voltage boost if the charger voltage is below the battery voltage. Think of a 500 V charger and the Lucid 900 V battery. New EA chargers support 900V but I am not sure about older ones. I am not sure about Chargepoint, EVGo and others.
2. Thermal management. As the battery gets hot, charge rate will need to slow down to prevent damaging the battery. This is limited by the capacity of the cars thermal management system, which is likely also a function of the outside air temperature.
3. Over Voltage protection - batteries can be easily damaged if the individual cell voltage goes above 4.2 volts. If the SOC is low there is a lot of headroom between the cell voltage and the maximum allowed cell voltage. This is also a function of temperature. It is why the charge rate slows dramatically after 70% SOC. Keep in mind that Lucid strings together 220 cells and it is difficult to control the voltage at the individual cell level. In order to get current to flow the voltage of the supply has to be higher than the voltage of the battery

 

[DeaneG]

... However, I am not aware if any of the EVs also estimate the time needed to charge and to what level is best to minimize the time at a charging station to have enough battery charge to get to the next charging station....

Google Maps and navigation in our Volvo EV does exactly this. It has pretty similar planning functionality as A Better Route Planner, though with fewer configuration options.

 

[DeaneG]

To your last point, I'm kind of hesitant to arrive at a charging station too low unless I have a guarantee that it will charge without problems.
Because EA Charging stations are iffy I hear, what do you think?

I've found that if I plan a road trip at home using A Better Route Planner, then use to Plugshare look for backup CCS chargers near where ABRP recommended charging stops (usually at EA stations), there is almost always a 50kW Chargepoint location within ten miles or so. So that's my disaster recovery plan. The worst I've heard of (once) at an EA location was only 4 of 8 chargers functional. Usually it's 3 of 4, 5 of 6, or 7 of 8 of the stations are functional. This is over four 1000-mile road trips covering about fifteen different EA charging locations throughout California.

 

[Volund]

Glad I stumbled into this thread. This has been on my mind lately, as I wait for any update on my Pure reservation. I've been told Q3 (yeah, right - I am planning on Q1 of 2023).

Here is my scenario: I am a snowbird, with a winter home in Fort Myers, Florida, and a condo just outside of Boston, MA. Every six months or so, I drive my Toyota Tacoma (20 MPG - 420 mile range) or Toyota Avalon (25 MPG - 450 mile range) from one destination to the other. That's approximately 1600 miles, over 3 travel days. I typically drive ~500 mile stretches every day, which means that I stop for 15 minutes to fill the tank once during the drive at between 380 and 400 miles, and then top the tank off at the end of the day.

[EDIT] Also; I will NEVER again drive over the GW Bridge - NEVER! I also STRONGLY prefer to go the inland route for most of the trip north: 95N to 26N toward Columbia SC, to 77N to Dublin, VA to 81N through Harrisburg, PA to 78N to 287, across the Tappan Zee (or whomever it has been renamed to) to 95N.[/EDIT]

How should I plan this out with a Lucid Air Pure? Do I plan to stop after 324 miles (80% of 406 miles), and then top off at the end of the day? Should the planned stop be sooner, later? What about preconditioning the battery? Do I do this before every charging stop of the trip? Will pre-conditioning affect the range during the trip? Will making this trip affect the overall life of the battery pack?

I wish that Lucid would offer Battery As A Service, as NIO and Gogoro do with their cars and scooters in China. The idea of pulling into a station, and having a newer freshly charged battery swapped into my vehicle in about 5 minutes is VERY appealing to me.

I think this is why Lucid aimed at getting 300 miles on the SOC by about 20-25 minutes, it's relatively quick if you compare it to a ICE stop to get gasoline.
I've been on a lot of road trips alone and even with family and I will get a coffee or take a bathroom break, my stop quickly turns into at LEAST 20 minutes, so I think it's a good level tbh, I don't mind that long of a break between charges.

I've had many issues with EA where i've had to call them numerous times to get a charger working properly. As frustrating as it is having to call them, to their credit i've never been left stranded as they've managed to get the charger working remotely (most times it just needs a reboot). I told them if the chargers are so sh*t that a reboot fixes them 95% of the time then they should put a reset button in the menu so users can do it themselves rather than have to call. Clearly, that request has been ignored though



To get 300Kw+ I would suspect you have to pull in probably under 10%. Might need to watch Tom's video to see what SoC % it starts to taper off into the 200's

When you say tapers off into the 200's do you mean the rate of charge? 200kw? Because he gets around 58 kwh and then it stays below 200kw after that

 

[Bunnylebowski]

I The future EV drivers will have to learn all of this to avoid the horrible mess the reporter went through on her trip NO - Chi and return trip

This is all they needed for their trip according to ABRP (unless it turned out their car was the standard range EV6?). They just didn’t know what they didn’t know, and didn’t bother to try learning what they didn’t know, and then wrote an article making EVs look bad.

 

[Bus Driver]

This is all they needed for their trip according to ABRP (unless it turned out their car was the standard range EV6?). They just didn’t know what they didn’t know, and didn’t bother to try learning what they didn’t know, and then wrote an article making EVs look bad.

THANK YOU.

 

[joec]

I thought this video was a good response to the WSJ NO — CHI article:

Yes, the WSJ should be embarrassed by the incredibly poor reporting here. But the EV community needs to help educate the general populace about planning for road trips, the differences between different chargers, etc.

Clearly, Journalists for major news outlets are not up to the task.

 

[Bunnylebowski]

Exactly. Another forum member took offense when I referred to these newbie EV motorist journalists as “bimbos”. Well, in not educating themselves beforehand, in not planning ahead (something they should have done considering the relative paucity of suitable charging stations), and in presuming that that their motoring habits would carry over pretty much wholesale to EV road-tripping, they kind of were.

The reason I bridled at that article was because the authors were publicising to a clueless larger public, their less than satisfactory experience with EV motoring. Their story made it appear that the problems and delays they experienced were the fault of our EV infrastructure. I refuse to believe that that was the case. The problems they confronted were almost all of their own making. Practically all of them could have been avoided had they researched and planned a lot better.

So as to give undoubtedly hesitant consumers (and late EV adopters), an even handed perspective on EV road tripping, the more responsible thing to have done was to cop to poor planning. Another thing these journalists could have done was educate themselves by checking out the ever growing number of EV trip planning apps (ABRP being just one example), watching youtube videos from the most credible and knowledgeable youtubers in the EV universe, and then applying what they learned on their road trip. They could have written about what they had learned and observed in their article. Their article would have served a useful purpose had they done that.

Instead, in dramatic and sensational but ultimately tiresome fashion, they blamed their problems on the EV charging network.

EXACTLY. It’s like they didn’t even realize the fastest chargers are EA, and then when they found one they didn’t bother to do everything via EA chargers, but then complained about how LOOOONG it took to charge! Honestly I wouldn’t care, I generally am happy to leave those who don’t bother to figure things out for themselves in my rear-view mirror, but it ultimately affects us all because it sours the public in EV adoption thus making costs higher for everyone, while increasing risk to the environment.

 

[Bobby]

EXACTLY. It’s like they didn’t even realize the fastest chargers are EA, and then when they found one they didn’t bother to do everything via EA chargers, but then complained about how LOOOONG it took to charge! Honestly I wouldn’t care, I generally am happy to leave those who don’t bother to figure things out for themselves in my rear-view mirror, but it ultimately affects us all because it sours the public in EV adoption thus making costs higher for everyone, while increasing risk to the environment.

Well, maybe that means more chargers available for us because some people will be scared away for now. I’ve had a couple times where I had to wait around for a charger to become available. It seems like the sales of EV’s are far outpacing the charging infrastructure. So this video convinces some people to wait, just as well as far as I’m concerned.

 

[joec]

Well, maybe that means more chargers available for us because some people will be scared away for now. I’ve had a couple times where I had to wait around for a charger to become available. It seems like the sales of EV’s are far outpacing the charging infrastructure. So this video convinces some people to wait, just as well as far as I’m concerned.

That's a chicken and egg problem, though. The waiting has to get bad enough, and at most times, not just a couple of peak moments during the week, before companies will want to fully invest in further improvements.

We don't do preventative infrastructure here in the US.