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socktucker said:
Man it just doesn’t work good here lol don’t take it so personally. Mine tried to park in a Target cart return.

I bought the first Tesla in my neighborhood. They didn’t even have a real dealership here just a showroom and service. I was so excited I bought the floor model!! Then the next year I bought another one!
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What hardware & software version are you using.
 
Lucken said:
What hardware & software version are you using.
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2023 Model 3 on whatever the current software and FSD was earlier this year.

I’m telling you; it’s this area. My Lucid doesn’t work right in the same spot neither of my Teslas do/did and my BMW throws GPS errors too. In two spots about half mile each and has for years.
 
socktucker said:
2023 Model 3 on whatever the current software and FSD was earlier this year.

I’m telling you; it’s this area. My Lucid doesn’t work right in the same spot neither of my Teslas do/did and my BMW throws GPS errors too. In two spots about half mile each and has for years.
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Your hardware is several generations old and you’re not running the latest software which was only released a few weeks ago. I’d be willing to bet there’s an excellent chance that HW4 hardware together with the latest software would yield a different result. Or perhaps not. Maybe your area has demons. Or maybe you’re cursed. If that’s the case I shouldn’t be talking to you.🤣
 
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Lucken said:
Your hardware is several generations old and you’re not running the latest software which was only released a few weeks ago. I’d be willing to bet there’s an excellent chance that HW4 hardware together with the latest software would yield a different result. Or perhaps not. Maybe your area has demons. Or maybe you’re cursed. If that’s the case I shouldn’t be talking to you.🤣
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FSD software is not all the same? It’s HW3
 
socktucker said:
FSD software is not all the same? It’s HW3
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No, it's not all the same. Tesla has had to upgrade their hardware multiple times as they repeatedly discovered that it wasn't capable enough to run the steadily more computationally intensive software of newer FSD software releases. If you don't have HW4, they can't give you the best version of FSD available, because HW3 would just fail to handle the workload. They've tried trimming down the complexity of the neural network to let it run on the older hardware, but doing so has produced obvious defects in FSD. For them to live up to the promises they made to people who bought vehicles with earlier hardware generations, they're going to have to upgrade people's vehicles. But there's so many HW3 vehicles that it will be an incredibly expensive upgrade program, and so they're dragging their feet. There's also some reason to think that FSD is going to need HW5 to be able to deliver the promised functionality, and so they may be planning to wait on doing any upgrades until it's clear what the hardware requirements really are.
 
TahoeMichael said:
And yet i cannot find a Gravity with a config I like on their inventory page. Part of the problem is that I want only 5 seats, and they've obviously built more 7 seaters. But I wonder if they're not listing all the vehicles they actually have. I guess I'll have to ask an SA.
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Turns out there is quite a bit of inventory that the SAs can see that we cannot see on the inventory page. If you filter for "any distance" and "available in 3+ weeks", zero Gravities are found, but the SAs can see vehicles 3 and 4 weeks out.
 
TahoeMichael said:
No, it's not all the same. Tesla has had to upgrade their hardware multiple times as they repeatedly discovered that it wasn't capable enough to run the steadily more computationally intensive software of newer FSD software releases. If you don't have HW4, they can't give you the best version of FSD available, because HW3 would just fail to handle the workload. They've tried trimming down the complexity of the neural network to let it run on the older hardware, but doing so has produced obvious defects in FSD. For them to live up to the promises they made to people who bought vehicles with earlier hardware generations, they're going to have to upgrade people's vehicles. But there's so many HW3 vehicles that it will be an incredibly expensive upgrade program, and so they're dragging their feet. There's also some reason to think that FSD is going to need HW5 to be able to deliver the promised functionality, and so they may be planning to wait on doing any upgrades until it's clear what the hardware requirements really are.
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Well that’s lame!
 
Lucken said:
Not saying it didn’t happen, but I gotta say it’s amazing with these coincidences of me extolling the virtues of Tesla’s FSD and you, only 2 minutes prior being in a near catastrophic accident with a Tesla. Yet everyone I know that has a newer Tesla has never had anything like this happen.
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I appreciate you not insinuating I’m lying. :)

It’s not that uncommon that I’m in his Tesla; it’s also not that uncommon that it screws up on him, but to be fair this was more hilarious than most. Our suspicion is my area is hard for it because there are just no lines whatsoever, and it’s on a hill.

Lucken said:
What hardware version does he have?
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4.

Lucken said:
What software is he running?
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Not sure. I assume the latest, but I’m not sure.

Lucken said:
I remember when I took a 2 hour Tesla test drive with a friend in the passenger seat. We were amazed at how the car, upon seeing an ambulance coming down the opposite direction of a 2 lane road, immediately slowed down and pulled over until the ambulance had passed. It was on FSD. My friend’s mouth was open…as was mine.
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That’s neat! It’s also a requirement for autonomous driving a la Waymo/CyberCab, so I’m not too surprised, either.

Lucken said:
At this point even my wife, who is conservative about this kind of tech, is a 100% believer.
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That’s great! I absolutely believe it will get there one day. Maybe I’m just the @hmp10 of FSD haha
 
borski said:
That’s great! I absolutely believe it will get there one day. Maybe I’m just the @hmp10 of FSD haha
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And for me and many others, that day has arrived. :)

As for the experience you related, I for one would never initiate FSD in areas where there are no lane markings. It’s simply unreasonable to expect the system to navigate areas like that. Certainly in the NY area that’s a use case I’ve never seen. Even faded lane markings at night are handled with ease by FSD.

I would also add if your friend is having frequent occurrences where FSD is acting in a dangerous manner in more typical areas with lane markings, he should bring his car in for servicing. With the latest hardware and software it just shouldn’t be doing this.
 
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Interesting tidbit,

From IPO to Rawlinson leaving….stock price dropped 91% in 3.5 years, the 1.5 years Winteroff was interim CEO, share price dropped 66%. Were they in a competition?

IPO $25 pre split, so that is $250 to $4……what a slaughter. You couldn’t have a worse couple of CEO…..
 
socktucker said:
2023 Model 3 on whatever the current software and FSD was earlier this year.

I’m telling you; it’s this area. My Lucid doesn’t work right in the same spot neither of my Teslas do/did and my BMW throws GPS errors too. In two spots about half mile each and has for years.
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Lucken said:
Your hardware is several generations old and you’re not running the latest software which was only released a few weeks ago. I’d be willing to bet there’s an excellent chance that HW4 hardware together with the latest software would yield a different result. Or perhaps not. Maybe your area has demons. Or maybe you’re cursed. If that’s the case I shouldn’t be talking to you.🤣
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Convinced @socktucker lives in Area 51 or some other government testing ground. The stuff that happens to him can only be best be rationalized to be aliens. Anything else would be too farfetched.
 
gaskiller said:
Interesting tidbit,

From IPO to Rawlinson leaving….stock price dropped 91% in 3.5 years, the 1.5 years Winteroff was interim CEO, share price dropped 66%. Were they in a competition?

IPO $25 pre split, so that is $250 to $4……what a slaughter. You couldn’t have a worse couple of CEO…..
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Definitely a slaughter in stock value, but I wouldn't say they couldn't have had a worse couple of CEOs because the odds of a startup EV automaker even making it this far are very long. They could have been Fisker... or Nikola... or Lordstown... or Canoo... or Aptera... or 5-6 others that didn't even get to the point of having gotten their names in the news. Lucid has done far better than most just to get this far, but it does illustrate the Hurculean task at hand to break into the auto industry and make it into the black before going bankrupt.
 
dbsb3233 said:
Definitely a slaughter in stock value, but I wouldn't say they couldn't have had a worse couple of CEOs because the odds of a startup EV automaker even making it this far are very long. They could have been Fisker... or Nikola... or Lordstown... or Canoo... or Aptera... or 5-6 others that didn't even get to the point of having gotten their names in the news. Lucid has done far better than most just to get this far, but it does illustrate the Hurculean task at hand to break into the auto industry and make it into the black before going bankrupt.
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As a heavy investor in Lucid, I share the stock price pain. However, I remain grateful that Lucid launched under the hand of Peter Rawlinson. I do not believe any other player in the automotive world could have brought a product to market that moved so many needles -- efficiency, range, power/weight/volume ratios, space engineering, chassis performance -- at once. (For those who want to say "MUSK!", remember that it was Peter Rawlinson who did the engineering heavy lifting on the original Model S that won Car of the Year at launch . . . an act he uniquely reprised with the Lucid Air ten years later.) And the Air, despite the low sales numbers of a niche market, still outsold its competitors from Tesla, Mercedes, and Porsche (the Model S, the EQS, the Taycan.)

And look at the EV missteps and failures from so many long-established brands. Mercedes had to move to a completely new platform after the EQS line stumbled so badly. Nissan, after lengthy delays, pulled the Ariya from the U.S. market. Honda buys its EV technology from GM after lackluster internal efforts. Toyota's Lexus RZ was a bad joke with real-world range in the mid-100s that couldn't sell even at massively-discounted prices. Mazda is nowhere to be seen on the EV landscape. And VW is a near shambles, recently announcing 100,000 layoffs by 2030, mainly because they stumbled so badly with EVs in a home market that is turning quickly to EVs.

If any of these companies had not had their legacy ICE lines to keep them afloat, their future and their stock prospects would look far bleaker than Lucid's.
 
dbsb3233 said:
They could have been Fisker... or Nikola... or Lordstown... or Canoo... or Aptera...
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I've had an Aptera reservation since Dec 2020 and they are only now starting to produce their first 40 vehicles. Aptera is not fully in the game yet, but also not quite out.

My comment does not at all take away from your point, of course. (Coincidentally, my long wait for Aptera led me to Lucid. I'm trading practicality for performance and luxury.)
 
hmp10 said:
As a heavy investor in Lucid, I share the stock price pain. However, I remain grateful that Lucid launched under the hand of Peter Rawlinson. I do not believe any other player in the automotive world could have brought a product to market that moved so many needles -- efficiency, range, power/weight/volume ratios, space engineering, chassis performance -- at once. (For those who want to say "MUSK!", remember that it was Peter Rawlinson who did the engineering heavy lifting on the original Model S that won Car of the Year at launch . . . an act he uniquely reprised with the Lucid Air ten years later.) And the Air, despite the low sales numbers of a niche market, still outsold its competitors from Tesla, Mercedes, and Porsche (the Model S, the EQS, the Taycan.)

And look at the EV missteps and failures from so many long-established brands. Mercedes had to move to a completely new platform after the EQS line stumbled so badly. Nissan, after lengthy delays, pulled the Ariya from the U.S. market. Honda buys its EV technology from GM after lackluster internal efforts. Toyota's Lexus RZ was a bad joke with real-world range in the mid-100s that couldn't sell even at massively-discounted prices. Mazda is nowhere to be seen on the EV landscape. And VW is a near shambles, recently announcing 100,000 layoffs by 2030, mainly because they stumbled so badly with EVs in a home market that is turning quickly to EVs.

If any of these companies had not had their legacy ICE lines to keep them afloat, their future and their stock prospects would look far bleaker than Lucid's.
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Exactly. People say "But EVs are simple! Way fewer parts compared to ICE!". The drivetrain may be simpler but the rest of the car, the supply chains, the labor, the sales operations, the marketing, the service centers, the parts departments, the financing, and the massive capital investment to make it all work before going bankrupt first are all still there to have to get right. It's a massive operation. These aren't trinkets, they're 6000 lb cars that have 1000 rules and regulations to get past.

Legacy has had 100 years to get it right. A current ICE (or hybrid) car is truly a modern marvel when you think about all that has to go into it. EV startups have to duplicate all that 100 years of innovation and perfecting, other than the drivetrain (and even though it's not as complex, they had to figure that out from scratch as well). There's a decade of R&D before the first car can even be sold to start generating revenue.

And on top of that, for some reason they feel like they have to be spending a big chuck of their resources developing autonomy too. Which remains a head-scratcher to me. Screw autonomy, just get the damn car and car business working right first!
 
dbsb3233 said:
Exactly. People say "But EVs are simple! Way fewer parts compared to ICE!". The drivetrain may be simpler but the rest of the car, the supply chains, the labor, the sales operations, the marketing, the service centers, the parts departments, the financing, and the massive capital investment to make it all work before going bankrupt first are all still there to have to get right. It's a massive operation. These aren't trinkets, they're 6000 lb cars that have 1000 rules and regulations to get past.

Legacy has had 100 years to get it right. A current ICE (or hybrid) car is truly a modern marvel when you think about all that has to go into it. EV startups have to duplicate all that 100 years of innovation and perfecting, other than the drivetrain (and even though it's not as complex, they had to figure that out from scratch as well). There's a decade of R&D before the first car can even be sold to start generating revenue.

And on top of that, for some reason they feel like they have to be spending a big chuck of their resources developing autonomy too. Which remains a head-scratcher to me. Screw autonomy, just get the damn car and car business working right first!
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Killing the tax credit did a lot of damage too.
 
socktucker said:
Killing the tax credit did a lot of damage too.
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To EV makers, sure, although I'd argue it shouldn't have been there at all. And certainly not for decades. If it had to exist, they should have left the first one in place IMO as it's structure was more reasonable and logical ($1.5B to each manufacturer as a boost to get them into the EV game). Once they used up their 200,000 credits, they're in the game, so take the training wheels off. I just would have added a sunset date to the whole program (around 2025).

(Hoping our 2 posts didn't just open the door to a whole tax credit policy/politics discussion like tends to happen as soon as it's brought up.)
 
socktucker said:
FSD software is not all the same? It’s HW3
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Now I have to question if you actually own a Tesla - how do you not know this? HW4 has been out since late 2023 and has been getting constant FSD updates, while those of us on HW3 are still waiting for v14lite to somewhat simulate what the newer cars get. There is zero doubt that FSD on the latest cars with the updated software is a quantum leap in abilities and performance over HW3 and your complaints are probably no longer valid.
 
Leftlane said:
Now I have to question if you actually own a Tesla - how do you not know this?
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Cuz its just a car, not a hobby. My relationship with Tesla starts and stops when I drive our 23 Model 3. I also had a 23 Model Y Performance. I got the Lucid instead of a new Model Y because I was intrigued by the performance, but really did like my Model Y. When I soured on Lucid, I went BMW (which I cannot believe I bought a BMW but), and I really love it. Cant tell you what software it has exactly either, no idea and I don't care. It does what its advertised to do.

I can tell you anything you want to know about most import gassers though, anything car audio, or anything Maserati!
 
dbsb3233 said:
And on top of that, for some reason they feel like they have to be spending a big chuck of their resources developing autonomy too. Which remains a head-scratcher to me. Screw autonomy, just get the damn car and car business working right first!
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It's a reflection of their primary investor's priorities. For the PIF Lucid is the platform that allows them to invest in new technologies and domestic manufacturing. That strategy has stayed intact through 3 CEO's. And it's quite possible that this ambitious strategy has left the company hamstrung in perfecting the current business.
 
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