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Dream drive pro and autonomy subscription

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DrJBell

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Lucid Air Pure 24'
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Has anyone heard how this is actually going to be implemented?

Can you imagine paying $6,500 for DreamDrive Pro/sensors back in 2022 or whenever and then, years later, being told you need a subscription to fully use the advanced features those sensors were purchased for? I really hope Lucid plans to grandfather existing owners who paid thousands upfront into some type of non-subscription access to the capabilities of the hardware they already paid for.

I understand that software development and ongoing ADAS improvements cost money, and I don’t necessarily have a problem with Lucid charging for future, substantially more advanced capabilities. But there needs to be some distinction between someone who paid thousands upfront for the hardware and someone who gets the hardware today at a much lower cost with the expectation of paying a recurring subscription.

To me, it should be one or the other: either charge a higher upfront price and give owners access to the capabilities of the hardware they purchased, or make the hardware much cheaper and use a subscription model for the advanced software.

I honestly don’t know how other automakers are handling this, so I’m curious what people think. But I’d be pretty disappointed if someone who spent $6,500 on DreamDrive Pro ends up paying another recurring fee just to finally get the full use of the sensors they’ve had sitting in the car for a few years.
 
DrJBell said:
....But I’d be pretty disappointed if someone who spent $6,500 on DreamDrive Pro ends up paying another recurring fee just to finally get the full use of the sensors they’ve had sitting in the car for a few years.
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With Tesla, you either pay the one-time fee, or the subscription, not both.
There's probably not a lot to be gained by speculating what Lucid might do for Cosmos, or even for the anticipated emerging capability for Gravity.
Time will tell.
 
DeaneG said:
With Tesla, you either pay the one-time fee, or the subscription, not both. There's probably not a lot to be gained by speculating what Lucid might do for Cosmos, or even for the anticipated emerging capability for Gravity. Time will tell.
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DeaneG said:
With Tesla, you either pay the one-time fee, or the subscription, not both. There's probably not a lot to be gained by speculating what Lucid might do for Cosmos, or even for the anticipated emerging capability for Gravity. Time will tell.
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Fair I was thinking of Air when I wrote this, for tesla i assume they don’t charge separately for the cameras they need for FSD because all their cars have them is that correct?
 
DrJBell said:
Fair I was thinking of Air when I wrote this, for tesla i assume they don’t charge separately for the cameras they need for FSD because all their cars have them is that correct?
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That's correct.
 
The sad fact is that Lucid telegraphs little intent to ever deliver early Air owners anything even close to what we paid $10,000 for. A little less of a miss for those who paid only $6,500. Now, having noted this, a bunch of revisionists with other vested interests will protest that Lucid never promised anything of the sort, that we were absolute fools to shell out hard money for a promise, and that the right thing for Lucid to do is to forget about honoring commitments (at least as best as possible) to their early adopters, and instead focus of them and their interests.... Of course, unless and until it's their turn in the barrel.
 
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DeaneG said:
That's correct.
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Buffalo Bob said:
The sad fact is that Lucid telegraphs little intent to ever deliver early Air owners anything even close to what we paid $10,000 for. A little less of a miss for those who paid only $6,500. Now, having noted this, a bunch of revisionists with other vested interests will protest that Lucid never promised anything of the sort, that we were absolute fools to shell out hard money for a promise, and that the right thing for Lucid to do is to forget about honoring commitments (at least as best as possible) to their early adopters, and instead focus of them and their interests.... Of course, unless and until it's their turn in the barrel.
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wow 10k, what did you believe was going to be future capabilities? I am curious because even now the website just says: future-capable advanced driver assistance system hardware available, and this is so vague they can essentially say anything satisfies this requirement. It would be nice if they just say L2++ or some other more specific thing. That said I love my lucid I just think in this time of focusing on customers and trying to rebuild they really need to be a little more transparent on these points and be crystal clear on what the car can actually do right now and what they truly believe the car will be able to do in the future if you pay for something that isn't available at purchase.
 
Lucid announced something during the Investor presentation in March. From pg 107:

"DreamDrive Pro $69 –199 / mo. Tiered by ADAS level (L2++ to L4) H1 2027"

This was made under the previous management team so take these prices and timeline with a grain of salt.

This presentation also made it clear that hands free city driving would not be coming to this generation of Air. Again, made under the previous management team but the Air's hardware makes it difficult to see any kind of supervised point to point ADAS.
 
erigion said:
the Air's hardware makes it difficult to see any kind of supervised point to point ADAS.
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I don’t understand this statement. Can you explain?

I’m asking out of ignorance of the full capabilities of DDP; not asking to challenge you.
 
bcjenkins said:
I don’t understand this statement. Can you explain?

I’m asking out of ignorance of the full capabilities of DDP; not asking to challenge you.
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Lucid Air runs on a nvidia Orin SoC. This chip is rated for 256 INT8 TOPS (trillion operations per second). TOPS is a measure of how powerful the chip is.

The Gravity uses 2x Orin SoCs or about 500 TOPS.

Midsize uses 2x nvidia Thor SoCs. These are the latest generation of chips from nvidia and can do ~1000 TOPS each so about 2k total. The self-driving Gravitys for Nuro/Uber also use this setup.

Funny thing is, Tesla's current gen HW4/AI4 is estimated at 150-175 TOPS but their software is completely custom. It's also probably not capable of full unsupervised driving but Cybercabs are launching on AI4 so who knows. Maybe that's why the rollout/testing has been so slow. Their next gen AI5 hardware is rumored to have 2000-2500 TOPS.

Lucid uses Nvidia's alphamayo as the base for their ADAS systems. Unlike Tesla, Nvidia has no real reason to make their model efficient. Maybe the Air could do it if Lucid spent a lot of money on it but they don't have the money to spare. Gravity sounds like it will be able to do supervised point-to-point eventually (and they had hands-free city driving as coming in 2027 in the investor presentation) but who knows when.

Another comparison point is Rivian Gen2 (R1T, R1S, and launch edition R2s). They use the same setup as Gravity (2x Orin). Unlike Lucid, they are going the Tesla route and building their own custom ADAS software. They have stated that supervised point-to-point ADAS is coming to Gen2 vehicles. Unsupervised P2P is supposed to come to Gen3 models. This generation will use custom designed chips capable of 1600 TOPS. Gen1 Rivians are essentially done. They use some old Mobileye hardware that is nowhere near capable enough.

The guts of the Air are outdated, and the Gravity will soon be outdated. This isn't even taking into account the number of ECUs used in these models. Midsize is going to run on 3 chips. Gravity has 13 and Air has 30ish?. Lucid can't just slap the latest gen chips into these two models. It would take complete redesigns to bring them up to date. This is probably why Tesla discontinued the S and X. They did not think spending the money redesigning the internals for AI5 would be worth it with how few they sell every year.

If I owned an Air, I would not hold my breath for new ADAS capabilities beyond a self-parking feature that is slated for 2027.
 
socktucker said:
That’s what I thought about UX 3.0 but they’re doing a demo in Newark of it so wtf do I know. Nobody knows right now.
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The infotainment is a single ECU, and you can buy the latest version of the CCC to run it. ADAS is quite a bit more complex and does not run on the CCC.
 
DrJBell said:
wow 10k, what did you believe was going to be future capabilities? I am curious because even now the website just says: future-capable advanced driver assistance system hardware available, and this is so vague they can essentially say anything satisfies this requirement. It would be nice if they just say L2++ or some other more specific thing. That said I love my lucid I just think in this time of focusing on customers and trying to rebuild they really need to be a little more transparent on these points and be crystal clear on what the car can actually do right now and what they truly believe the car will be able to do in the future if you pay for something that isn't available at purchase.
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Sorry for the delayed reply... My $10,000 figure was incorrect, as it turns out that we *only* paid $9,000 for DreamDrive Pro. As for what was expected, you might want to listen around the 4:20 point of the DreamDrive Pro release, where hands-off / eyes-off driving is clearly promised. Other similar presentations exist. The level of autonomy of Waymo or Tesla FSD was never promised, and Lucid has quietly diluted DDP's capabilities from presentation to presentation... to the point that I wonder if any further improvements are coming. For that matter, I wonder if they can even get hands-on / eyes-on driving to work properly. We just returned from a 300 mile trip, and hands-off driving is little more than an exercise in frustration, with incessant pay attention and take control warnings despite having my eyes all but nailed to the road. Ugh!

 
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