Gravity Efficiency and Range

The vehicle dynamometer testing done on a chassis rolls does factor in wind resistance. Manufacturers need to determine what a generally referred to as the A B C coefficients for the vehicle before doing the testing. This refers to the coefficients for driving resistance as a function of vehicle speed expressed as a quadratic equation. This is used to represent the resistance coming from not only aerodynamic drag but also rolling resistance, i.e., rolling friction from the tires plus also friction from rotating joints such as wheel bearings, etc. The way these coefficients are determined are using an actual vehicle on a test doing a series of coast down curves. These resulting factors, along with the vehicle test weight get programmed into the dynamometer controller with the resulting dyno resistance intended to match a vehicle at speed on the open road as closely as possible.


The drag coefficient is indeed an unitless/dimensionless term. At least as taught to me during my aerospace degree.

The formula for aero dynamic drag multiples the drag coefficient by an air density term, an area term (representing the frontal area of the vehicle), and then the velocity squared. It is the air density term which is a function of both altitude and temperature.

While Lucid may suggest waiting 2,000 miles it actually is typically more like 4,000 miles that is used as a vehicle break-in period before any testing such as the EPA range or ICE vehicle emissions/OBD testing is performed. My experience tracking my efficiency stats on my current 2023 Tesla Model S actually tended to suggest I didn't see "mature" efficiency numbers until more like 7,000 miles.

Your mileage may vary.
Appreciate your insights and clarifications.

I am not going to argue drag and coefficients with an aerospace engineer. :cool:

Let me ask a few clarification questions:

i) my understanding of the 5-cycle EPA test, done on a dynamometer in a room, the RAW DATA does not comprehend speed/air-drag per se. However, the vehicle manufacturer is supposed to apply certain correction factors to account for these factors. Is that true or not true? If true, are these "fudge factors" or approved by a neutral party?
ii) can you enlighten us on the physical underpinning of a "break-in" period?
 
Appreciate your insights and clarifications.

I am not going to argue drag and coefficients with an aerospace engineer. :cool:

Let me ask a few clarification questions:

i) my understanding of the 5-cycle EPA test, done on a dynamometer in a room, the RAW DATA does not comprehend speed/air-drag per se. However, the vehicle manufacturer is supposed to apply certain correction factors to account for these factors. Is that true or not true? If true, are these "fudge factors" or approved by a neutral party?
ii) can you enlighten us on the physical underpinning of a "break-in" period?
One more point:

Inasmuch as the drag-coefficient is "dimension-less", If I test a vehicle for "efficiency" as-in mi/kWh) at sea-level and at 5,300 ft elevation, the results are going to be different, correct?
 
One more point:

Inasmuch as the drag-coefficient is "dimension-less", If I test a vehicle for "efficiency" as-in mi/kWh) at sea-level and at 5,300 ft elevation, the results are going to be different, correct?
I think you're going down a rat hole with the discussion about drag coefficients, because drag coefficient doesn't predict the efficiency of a vehicle. As others have noted, it's drag-coefficient times frontal area that drives the drag equation. For example, a Lucid Gravity seems to have a Cd of .24, compared to the Air's Cd of .197, which is 82% of the Gravity's Cd, but an Air is actually more efficient than that ratio would imply because its frontal area is a lower. And course drag is only one factor in a vehicle's efficiency. For example, different electric motor designs will have different efficiencies. And motor efficiency is not constant, but rather varies by a number of factors, including temperature, RPM, etc.

Air density at 5300 ft is roughly 85% the density at sea level (YMMV). So yes, reduced air density at altitude will enable a bit more range for any vehicle. But it's a mistake to obsess about this one factor, as so many factors play into how far an EV can actually go. At the end of the day, if you want to compare two vehicles, you really just have to drive them in as near identical conditions as possible, and see what happens. OOS does a decent job of trying to test like that. And yes, if you drive at a different altitude, you won't match their results. But you're not going to match anyway, because so many other factors will also be different, including road surface, air temperature, wind, tire condition, tire pressure, elevation changes, traffic, etc.
 
I think you're going down a rat hole with the discussion about drag coefficients, because drag coefficient doesn't predict the efficiency of a vehicle. As others have noted, it's drag-coefficient times frontal area that drives the drag equation. For example, a Lucid Gravity seems to have a Cd of .24, compared to the Air's Cd of .197, which is 82% of the Gravity's Cd, but an Air is actually more efficient than that ratio would imply because its frontal area is a lower. And course drag is only one factor in a vehicle's efficiency. For example, different electric motor designs will have different efficiencies. And motor efficiency is not constant, but rather varies by a number of factors, including temperature, RPM, etc.

Air density at 5300 ft is roughly 85% the density at sea level (YMMV). So yes, reduced air density at altitude will enable a bit more range for any vehicle. But it's a mistake to obsess about this one factor, as so many factors play into how far an EV can actually go. At the end of the day, if you want to compare two vehicles, you really just have to drive them in as near identical conditions as possible, and see what happens. OOS does a decent job of trying to test like that. And yes, if you drive at a different altitude, you won't match their results. But you're not going to match anyway, because so many other factors will also be different, including road surface, air temperature, wind, tire condition, tire pressure, elevation changes, traffic, etc.
I was NOT trying to compare Gravity vs Air in terms of efficiencies. I don't own a Gravity; hence I do not profess to know its real-life efficiencies. Your points above are indeed correct. The point that was debated pertains to comparing the Air's efficiency vs Rivian's efficiency in real life vs manufacturers claims and OoS's testing.


The points I made were:

> OoS's tests in Ft Collins, @5,300 ft altitude, running the battery complete dry overstates the vehicle's actual performance at sea level by a consequential amount. This is NOT an Air or Gravity question. It applies to all the vehicles OoS tested in Ft. Collins. I believe you agree with that.
> Exactly to your points, comparing the Air to a Rivian (different drag coefficients, different vehicle cross-sections, etc.). Since I own both cars and I drove them on exactly the same routes (780 mile one-way trips) on multiple occasions including a recent trip towing a heavy trailer, I have a reasonable amount of data to validate their respective achievable efficiencies. On the Rivian (no trailer), I was clear that I operate the vehicle in "Conserve mode". Conserve mode uses FWD as opposed to the quad-motor drive. Conserve mode also LOWERS the vehicle height, hence, reduces the drag. As a result, I was able to achieve ~2.5 mi/kWh vs the Air @ ~3.5 mi/kWh. I also posted some Rivian data comparing the efficiencies of Rivian in standard Mode vs Converse Mode driving (albeit it, the Rivian data were taken @ average speed of 54mph) but you can see the marked difference.


In short, I was trying to calibrate the comparison of vehicles efficiencies operating under similar conditions in real life vs just defaulting to the manufacturers' claims.
 
Appreciate your insights and clarifications.

I am not going to argue drag and coefficients with an aerospace engineer. :cool:

Let me ask a few clarification questions:

i) my understanding of the 5-cycle EPA test, done on a dynamometer in a room, the RAW DATA does not comprehend speed/air-drag per se. However, the vehicle manufacturer is supposed to apply certain correction factors to account for these factors. Is that true or not true? If true, are these "fudge factors" or approved by a neutral party?
ii) can you enlighten us on the physical underpinning of a "break-in" period?
Vehicle dynamometer testing does consider speed/air-drag.

Think of a vehicle dynamometer as a resistance training type of machine. The cars driving wheels do not spin freely, but a turning a huge roller which applies a resistive force. The dynamometer has to be set with a supplied set of coefficients to provide a resistant such that the energy/power being expended by the vehicle is equivalent to what would be required driving down the road a the same speed. That's where these coefficients used to set the dyno resistance are determined for the specific vehicle from a series of real vehicle driving tests, typically referred to as coast down tests. There is then a procedure when the vehicle is put on the dyno to calibrate the system to document that the correct speed/vehicle load characteristic is being achieved.

These coefficients, known as A/B/C coefficients are unique for a specific vehicle, so those for a Lucid Air are different from a Gravity which are different from say a Ford F-250 HD pick-up.

So the raw data from each driving cycle, whether energy consumed for an EV or fuel burned for an ICE, are already taking into account the vehicle speed driven instantaneously through the drive cycle, which the load on the vehicle instantaneously varying throughout the drive cycle, including periods of regenerative braking or coasting during the coast-down or stopping portions of the drive cycles. The test cycles are actually performed with a human driver "driving" the route. The operator has a computer display, typically right beside the driver side window which shows a live graph of vehicle speed against the prescribed profile. There are specified tolerance bands where the operator needs to keep the current speed inside the target. Not all drivers drive exactly the same. I've experienced some drivers which where much "smoother" versus some who tended much more to a binary accelerator control (full WOT or zero throttle/brakes). Provided they stay within the defined tolerance bands, all are consider legal drive cycles.

While much of this testing is done by the manufacturer, the regulatory agencies have the right and will perform some amount of confirmatory tests. In these cases the manufacturer is required to provide the test vehicle to the agency who then tests it per the regulation in their facility. If the results do not match the manufacturers, lets just say there will be a period of "discussion" that takes place. Ultimately the regulatory agency can reject and not approve the manufacturers. I've been a part of such confirmatory tests in the past. Many times they tend to be on new vehicles, first time certifications, or cases where there might be some history or events which could bring the manufacturers data into question. I've seen references in the past that suggest maybe upwards of 15% of tests go through a confirmatory test phase, but do not have first had knowledge to say if this is accurate or whether the level may have changed over the past few years given some of the current political environment around agencies like EPA.

The concept of break in testing comes from from basics of fact that for a brand new vehicle/engine, you need to run it for some amount of time before things like piston rings, bearings, gears sets, would "wear in" or "break in". This helps stabilize test results for things like fuel burn/energy consumed and engine emissions production. The work between regulators (EPA, ARB) and industry to decide appropriate test procedures and duration were outside of my personal professional involvement, but for ICE vehicles 4,000 miles ended up being the generally accepted period which is what I always found to be used. Now for EVs I've found some references to suggest that 2,000 miles seems to be more what is now generally accepted. This break in period is for the whole vehicle as a system, so for an EV, means both the car and battery are new and run together for that 2,000 mile period. I've done some quick searching to see if I can find if there's a single defined drive cycle for that, but without digging really deep in SAE and EPA/ARB procedures, haven't come across what I feel is a reference I'm willing to quote.

If you want to do a little investigation, this seems like an quick read. It has some links which I think will take you to references showing the actual drive cycles.

I will warn you, the regulations and much of the technical documents can seem like they are written in a foreign language. Trying to wade through them is not for the faint of heart. Even for someone like myself that worked in parts of this area for about 10 years during my professional career, it takes quite a bit of concerted effort to wade my way through them, typically multiple references deep, before I start to get what I think is a basic understanding.
 
adding a data point

1,800 miles on the clock, usually doing many short trips. 7 seat GT with 21-22.

charged to 100% and did a 90 mile one-way drive from LA to SD hitting some mild traffic, weather in the low 70s, mostly cruising at and targeting 70 mph, backing off on hills - honestly as efficiently as my patience would allow. hvac set to auto 71.

i’m usually in the fast lane but i wanted to see how the car would fare being one over from the slow lane. side note, i never realized how many fellow EV drivers on the highway just hang out at 70 mph.

car’s nav estimated 70% on arrival, and I arrived with 76%, achieving 3.21 mi/kwh for the trip. my dynamic efficiency gauge always felt low and says 2.65.

experiment over, definitely going to pick up the pace on the way back.
 
My two cents: The Gravity has plenty of range, whatever the actual number may be for this or that trip, and is plenty efficient - much moreso than my wife's Taycan or certainly any EV approximately it's size like ID Buzz/R1S/EV9, has plenty room for ppl and cargo, and is just as if not more fun to drive. So even if Lucid fudged or overstated or exaggerated these values, I'd still get one!

And..... my gut feeling is (though it's purely speculation) that Cosmos will be probably be more comfortable to ride in and handle better than R2 (except perhaps off-road)
...but to each his own
 
... The Gravity has plenty of range, whatever the actual number may be for this or that trip, and is plenty efficient ... So even if Lucid fudged or overstated or exaggerated these values, I'd still get one!
This 100%. I only did an efficiency-minded drive on purpose to verify if my car could break 3 mi/kwh during a longer highway drive, which it did. I needn't have worried about any early motor issues that I'd heard about that might drag efficiency down. The efficiency issue for me seems to be located on or around the driver's seat :)

My buddy who made the drive at the same time that I did (he drove a bit further) in a Q4 e-tron did a round trip SoC 75% -> 10% - and that was with charging for a bit at the destination. I didn't even think about charging and only used about half the GT's battery. Glad I got the Gravity.

To quote Shawshank: Either get busy living, or get busy hangingoutonforumstalkingaboutefficiency.
 
Here’s another data point and quite frankly I’m surprised at the turnaround. With the warmer weather my efficiency has shot up to 2.73 m/ KWh long term but its the dynamic range (2.85 from 2.5 a few weeks ago)that has gone through the roof. I now have a range of about 335 miles which is great considering my old air GT the
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actual range never got beyond around 370. I fully expect my gravity will be in that ball park within the next month even with the heavier weight and more drag.
 
I was NOT trying to compare Gravity vs Air in terms of efficiencies. I don't own a Gravity; hence I do not profess to know its real-life efficiencies. Your points above are indeed correct. The point that was debated pertains to comparing the Air's efficiency vs Rivian's efficiency in real life vs manufacturers claims and OoS's testing.


The points I made were:

...

In short, I was trying to calibrate the comparison of vehicles efficiencies operating under similar conditions in real life vs just defaulting to the manufacturers' claims.

I get that, and I think it's a useful project to collect apples-to-apples range data. Particularly since the EPA numbers are so useless. I was just trying to say that the technical stats (like cD) aren't that useful in the project, because it's so hard to know exactly what effect they have on the outcome of a range test.
 
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