Lucid Autonomous Driving Future

[gaskiller]

FWIW, now that I've experienced hand's free self-driving, I kinda don't care. Wake me up when it's 100% self driving and never causes an accident.

Exactly…..I tried FSD the other day, turned off in 5 minutes….its in-between driving and full autonomy. Hated the feeling. And it makes a lot of mistakes. And it’s slow!

 

[Steveinarizona]

I know this is pretty controversial, to the point of being a blasphemy, but I personally don’t care about self-driving, autonomous driving, FSD, whatever it’s called. I like to drive myself. And I can afford to Uber if I don’t want to drive for some reason. Thus owning a Lucid, the best driving car I have ever owned.

Before you ask me to “try it”, I have. Before I leased my Lucid 10 months ago, I owned a Tesla Model X, and before that, another Tesla, MYP. So I am fully aware

I agree, at least in part. I like having ADAS like blind spot monitoring and forward and rear collision alerts. I don't want my car to change lanes for me, I can do that myself and if and when I can't, it will be time for Waymo. I also don't want my car to park for me with one exception: I like the ability to back a car out of a space if some ahole has decided to park so close to me that I can't get in my driver's doorway.

 

[Tâm]

I agree, at least in part. I like having ADAS like blind spot monitoring and forward and rear collision alerts. I don't want my car to change lanes for me, I can do that myself and if and when I can't, it will be time for Waymo. I also don't want my car to park for me with one exception: I like the ability to back a car out of a space if some ahole has decided to park so close to me that I can't get in my driver's doorway.

It's doubtful Waymo would come to where I live the middle of nowhere.

Thus, Lucid's announcement of its personal self driving coming to the upcoming mid-sized cars is very applicable to me.

 

[Buffalo Bob]

Thus, Lucid's announcement of its personal self driving coming to the upcoming mid-sized cars is very applicable to me.

Was the acting CEOs comment on L3 & L4 focused solely on the upcoming mid-sized models? If so, how are those of us who paid for the Air's DDP supposed to feel? I can live with the Air's DDP never getting to L4, but I will most certainly feel cheated out of my money if L3 never happens.

 

[joec]

Count me amongst those who prefer to drive themselves. I’d never want to give up diving altogether.

However, on longer road trips, with hundreds of miles of monotonous highway driving, HA has come in very handy.

I don’t see any reason not to have both. And I think Lucid is well on its way. No one is as far along as they pretend to be in this area. It’s one of those areas of technology where you get 80% of the way there in 20% of the time. Then spend the other 80% of your time trying to perfect that last 20%.

Of all the software issues Lucid has, ADAS is not one of them. They will do fine. Also, they tend to keep their future plans close to the vest, so I suspect they already have cars in house doing more than we all have seen.

 

[Tâm]

Was the acting CEOs comment on L3 & L4 focused solely on the upcoming mid-sized models? If so, how are those of us who paid for the Air's DDP supposed to feel? I can live with the Air's DDP never getting to L4, but I will most certainly feel cheated out of my money if L3 never happens.

Here's the announcement:

https://share.google/uCgPq4sLtxZgBy2Ym

L4 is intended for the mid-size in this announcement.

Current buyers of Air and Gravity paid for what the specs say. The current specs do not mention L3 or L4 at all. Someone may have speculated that they paid for access to Air and Gravity L3 and L4 but it's all verbal and not a contract of what we paid for.

My speculation is: L4 requires more powerful hardware and software that the Air and Gravity are not designed for (thus, mid-size). However, the hardware for Air and Gravity is good enough to achieve L3.

My Samsung watch 7 can't measure Antioxidants. I have to throw it away and buy version 8 or above to get that feature.

In summary, we paid for the current specs and none of us is cheated just because the future hardware/software keeps changing.

 

[Buffalo Bob]

Here's the announcement:

https://share.google/uCgPq4sLtxZgBy2Ym

L4 is intended for the mid-size in this announcement.

Current buyers of Air and Gravity paid for what the specs say. The current specs do not mention L3 or L4 at all. Someone may have speculated that they paid for access to Air and Gravity L3 and L4 but it's all verbal and not a contract of what we paid for.

My speculation is: L4 requires more powerful hardware and software that the Air and Gravity are not designed for (thus, mid-size). However, the hardware for Air and Gravity is good enough to achieve L3.

My Samsung watch 7 can't measure Antioxidants. I have to throw it away and buy version 8 or above to get that feature.

In summary, we paid for the current specs and none of us is cheated just because the future hardware/software keeps changing.

That's actually not correct. The expectations for the Air may have been gradually watered down over time, but the expectations at the time I bought were clearly at least level 3 autonomy.

 

[Tâm]

That's actually not correct. The expectations for the air have been gradually watered down over time, but the expectations at the time I bought were clearly at least level 3.

Please show a proof from a sales receipt, contract, or Lucid's announcement...

It's easy to have an expectation but that's not the same as a contract.

 

[eelpout]

I also don't want my car to park for me with one exception: I like the ability to back a car out of a space if some ahole has decided to park so close to me that I can't get in my driver's doorway.

yeah, surprising that Lucid doesn't have anything like this. the hardware exists obviously, and peers like BMW, Mercedes-Benz etc. have had parking control both in & out from an app for a while now.

 

[eelpout]

Was the acting CEOs comment on L3 & L4 focused solely on the upcoming mid-sized models? If so, how are those of us who paid for the Air's DDP supposed to feel?

The corporate view is they can attend the same group therapy meetings as Gen 1 Rivian owners apparently.

 

[Tâm]

The corporate view is they can attend the same group therapy meetings as Gen 1 Rivian owners apparently.

That's the problem of technology: it can become obsolete real quick and a retrofit is seldom an option: we have to buy an entire new one instead.

For example, to get a decent fast charge with a 400v charger, we have to buy a whole new product, Gravity, because there's no announcement on the retrofit for the Air.

As a consolation prize, the announcement does say that Gravity will at least achieve "eyes-on, point-to-point driving (L2++)". I think that's just like Tesla Full Self Driving-Supervised but better. Not L3 but it will be practical enough for most scenarios on highways and city streets.

 

[eelpout]

That's the problem of technology: it can become obsolete real quick and a retrofit is seldom an option: we have to buy an entire new one instead.

For example, to get a decent fast charge with a 400v charger, we have to buy a whole new product, Gravity, because there's no announcement on the retrofit for the Air.

As a consolation prize, the announcement does say that Gravity will at least achieve "eyes-on, point-to-point driving (L2++)". I think that's just like Tesla Full Self Driving-Supervised but better. Not L3 but it will be practical enough for most scenarios on highways and city streets.

yeah, Lucid is already touting the midsize SUV as having more advanced hardware than the Gravity, maybe achieving L4. The technological leapfrogging just never stops.

one interesting thing I heard about the Gravity, I think it was just a toss-off in an Edmunds a Kelly Blue Book review, is that they hope to visually map at least 5-lanes of traffic instead of 3 on DD2Pro.

 

[Buffalo Bob]

Please show a proof from a sales receipt, contract, or Lucid's announcement...
It's easy to have an expectation but that's not the same as a contract.

You are right that I cannot show you any specific contract terms regarding L3 or L4, but there were certainly a number of presentations talking about future capabilities beyond what we have now. I was trying to find a one page PowerPoint document (from about a year ago) that listed a number of Air features that were coming, as I think 'eyes-off' might have been on it. It's around the time when Lucid seemed to start backing away from any such expectations. As I recall, V2H was on that list, as was (not originally promised) Sentry Mode.

 

[Tâm]

You are right that I cannot show you any specific contract terms regarding L3 or L4, but there were certainly a number of presentations talking about future capabilities beyond what we have now. I was trying to find a one page PowerPoint document (from about a year ago) that listed a number of Air features that were coming, as I think 'eyes-off' might have been on it. It's around the time when Lucid seemed to start backing away from any such expectations. As I recall, V2H was on that list, as was (not originally promised) Sentry Mode.

Here's Lucid Youtube presentation promising Air L3.

However, a presentation of an aspiration is not the same as a contract. They can promise your car can seat 7, but the sales receipt may show only 5. You have a right to refuse to pay for 5-seater and wait for a 7-seater. What you agree to pay is what you get.

I am not defending Lucid. I am just pointing out how the world works. Don't count on promises that are not documented on a sales receipt. Count on what you pay for as stated on the sales receipt.

 

[Buffalo Bob]

Here's Lucid Youtube presentation promising Air L3.

View attachment 35133

However, a presentation of an aspiration is not the same as a contract. They can promise your car can seat 7 but the sales receipt may show only 5. You have a right to refuse to pay for 5-seaters and wait for a 7-seater. What you agree to pay is what you get.

I am not defending Lucid. I am just pointing out how the world works. Don't count on promises that are not documented on a sales receipt. Count on what you pay for as stated on the sales receipt.

I don't at all disagree with you from a legal standpoint, but I think there is an ethical construct in the case of a company selling W.I.P. cars to early adopters. The buyers had legitimate expectations that certain promised features would eventually arrive. In the case of DDP, a $9k price tag would not have flown for what we have today, and Lucid set the bar on what was to come at least at L3.

 

[Tâm]

I don't at all disagree with you from a legal standpoint, but I think there is an ethical construct in the case of a company selling W.I.P. cars to early adopters. The buyers had legitimate expectations that certain promised features would eventually arrive. In the case of DDP, a $9k price tag would not have flown for what we have today, and Lucid set the bar on what was to come at least at L3.

I don't doubt that the Air has the capability to achieve L3, but whether Lucid will make it a priority is another issue. It may be years or never due to the pressing priority of the midsize...

Make no mistake that I am with you.

However, we still have to live in this world and we have to deal with promises from salespeople, including these presentations. They could promise the whole moon and stars just to sell you the car, but what counts is still the receipt, the Monroney sticker...

It's unethical, but it's not illegal. We just have to be careful and not get burned by all the promises and presentations.

 

[Buffalo Bob]

I don't doubt that the Air has the capability to achieve L3, but whether Lucid will make it a priority is another issue. It may be years or never due to the pressing priority of the midsize...

Make no mistake that I am with you.

However, we still have to live in this world and we have to deal with promises from salespeople, including these presentations. They could promise the whole moon and stars just to sell you the car, but what counts is still the receipt, the Monroney sticker...

It's unethical, but it's not illegal. We just have to be careful and not get burned by all the promises and presentations.

While we are pretty much in agreement, I don't think we should write this off to salespeople who either didn't know or exggerated the truth. The expectations for functionality beyond hands-off/eyes-on were clearly set in formal marketing materials, and repeatedly stated in executive presentations. Beyond that legitimizing the expectation, there is $9k price tag to consider. Finally, the 'leap of faith' was a requirement, because if we didn't pony up for the hardware up front, we would be nowhere when Lucid made good on the software. Wherever all that might fit on the ethical to legal spectrum, I certainly think it would speak volumes about Lucid, and not in a good way, to write-off its earliest adopters in order to shift their focus to pursuing new ones. While their silence in this area has been deafening, I really do still think very highly of the company, and expect them to make good.

 

[HC_79]

While we are pretty much in agreement, I don't think we should write this off to salespeople who either didn't know or exggerated the truth. The expectations for functionality beyond hands-off/eyes-on were clearly set in formal marketing materials, and repeatedly stated in executive presentations. Beyond that legitimizing the expectation, there is $9k price tag to consider. Finally, the 'leap of faith' was a requirement, because if we didn't pony up for the hardware up front, we would be nowhere when Lucid made good on the software. Wherever all that might fit on the ethical to legal spectrum, I certainly think it would speak volumes about Lucid, and not in a good way, to write-off its earliest adopters in order to shift their focus to pursuing new ones. While their silence in this area has been deafening, I really do still think very highly of the company, and expect them to make good.

This is certainly an interesting point and I do wonder how much longer carmakers are going to get away with this before someone is sued or laws get changed regarding this. I'm surprised to date that no one has taken Tesla on over this so maybe it will never happen. In my opinion, a company has every right to be ambitious about its future intentions but words are just words and should be taken with a grain of salt. However, when you take money for those promised features and then pivot or don't deliver the company should be liable for a full refund.

 

[Tâm]

This is certainly an interesting point and I do wonder how much longer carmakers are going to get away with this before someone is sued or laws get changed regarding this. I'm surprised to date that no one has taken Tesla on over this so maybe it will never happen. In my opinion, a company has every right to be ambitious about its future intentions but words are just words and should be taken with a grain of salt. However, when you take money for those promised features and then pivot or don't deliver the company should be liable for a full refund.

Tesla is being sued for selling unfulfilled Full Self Driving feature.

On the sales receipt (MVPA--Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement, and Monroney sticker), it clearly spells what the consumers buy, FSD, and the price.

California Judge Certifies Tesla Class-Action Lawsuit Over Full Self-Driving Autonomy Claims

A California judge certifies Tesla class-action lawsuit over misleading promises of autonomous driving and FSD technology.

share.google

That is not the case with Lucid sales receipt.

 

[TahoeMichael]

Tesla is being sued for selling unfulfilled Full Self Driving feature.

On the sales receipt (MVPA--Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement, and Monroney sticker), it clearly spells what the consumers buy, FSD, and the price.

California Judge Certifies Tesla Class-Action Lawsuit Over Full Self-Driving Autonomy Claims

A California judge certifies Tesla class-action lawsuit over misleading promises of autonomous driving and FSD technology.

share.google

That is not the case with Lucid sales receipt.

It's not quite as clear cut as that. Certainly it's true that a written contract usually trumps a verbal contract. All the marketing materials that a company produces around its products fall into the middle somewhere, and no one expects a sales receipt, or even a window sticker, to comprehensively list every tiny detail about what's being promised. This has been proven out in court on multiple occasions. There are even examples of a court putting more weight on the marketing material than on the legalese. A famous example is Honda losing lawsuits where children got injured riding their ATVs. The warnings and owner's manual of the ATV said that the vehicles weren't for children, but Honda's advertisements showed children riding them.