Storm Chaser & Ham Radio Operator wants a Lucid Air

[DoctorZ]

Eventually it appears as if we're all going to have to buy an EV. With that said, I'm not interested in anything other than a Lucid! However, as a Storm Chaser/SkyWarn Certified Severe Weather Spotter, and a licensed Ham Radio Operator, I need to know if my equipment will work in the vehicle? I've heard all the talk about RF interference EV motors put out. I assume this problem will have to be resolved eventually as sooner or later Police cars will be EV and they have to have two-way radio communications in them. So is anyone out there a Ham Radio Operator and successfully made it work WELL in their Lucid?

 

[DeaneG]

Eventually it appears as if we're all going to have to buy an EV. With that said, I'm not interested in anything other than a Lucid! However, as a Storm Chaser/SkyWarn Certified Severe Weather Spotter, and a licensed Ham Radio Operator, I need to know if my equipment will work in the vehicle? I've heard all the talk about RF interference EV motors put out. I assume this problem will have to be resolved eventually as sooner or later Police cars will be EV and they have to have two-way radio communications in them. So is anyone out there a Ham Radio Operator and successfully made it work WELL in their Lucid?

Lucid Airs have already auditioned for police duty:

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/how-good-does-lucid-air-police-cruiser-look-steel-wheels

I'd be surprised if there were any RF interference issues that an internal combustion car doesn't also have, from its infotainment CPU and screen(s).

 

[fpmacko]

Eventually it appears as if we're all going to have to buy an EV. With that said, I'm not interested in anything other than a Lucid! However, as a Storm Chaser/SkyWarn Certified Severe Weather Spotter, and a licensed Ham Radio Operator, I need to know if my equipment will work in the vehicle? I've heard all the talk about RF interference EV motors put out. I assume this problem will have to be resolved eventually as sooner or later Police cars will be EV and they have to have two-way radio communications in them. So is anyone out there a Ham Radio Operator and successfully made it work WELL in their Lucid?

I have a 2025 AT (love the car!) that I'm planning to equip with a Yaesu FTM-500. In the meantime, I've used my HT in the car with the windows down a couple of times. (It's a Faraday cage with the windows up due to the metallic tint.) It's a weak link to the repeater but I've never noticed any RF noise from the car either in-motion or while stopped. So, I think I'll be ok.

Now, having said that, being stuck using an HT with the windows down is not a permanent solution. Mag mounts are a nonstarter because the car is aluminum (and mine has the glass canopy). Lip mounts are also off the table because there's no useful gap around the trunk lid. So, after a lot of measuring and re-measuring I've converged on the Diamond NR770HRKS mount+whip (2m and 70cm). I plan to mount it (it has an adhesive pad) on the C-pillar immediately above the Air logo. The whip is 40.2 inches long and, if I allow some space for the height of the mount it looks like it'll just barely fit below the rubber coaming around the garage door. It ships with RG-316 coax so I'm pretty sure it'll fit through a tiny gap at the corner of the trunk lid. I should have the antenna later this week, so I'll see if it works out and can let you know.

I'll power the radio TR unit from the12 VDC accessory outlet inside the cubby on the RH side of the trunk. It's rated for 15A. The radio draws 10A in transmit. It'll be easy to run ethernet to the console. I have a cupholder mount for the remote head.

I'll let you know how it goes.

73.....Frank / WA3NHK

 

[fpmacko]

Lucid Airs have already auditioned for police duty:

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/how-good-does-lucid-air-police-cruiser-look-steel-wheels

I'd be surprised if there were any RF interference issues that an internal combustion car doesn't also have, from its infotainment CPU and screen(s).

Hi Deane.

Don't forget that the Air has a potentially HUGE source of EMI that doesn't exist in ICE cars. It's from the Wonderbox and all high current AC wiring. You're converting several kilowatts of DC into many kilowatts of AC to drive the motors. I'm not saying that the Wonderbox is noisy, but all the same the function is unique to EVs and has the potential to be a major source of EMI if not managed properly.

 

[DeaneG]

Hi Deane.

Don't forget that the Air has a potentially HUGE source of EMI that doesn't exist in ICE cars. It's from the Wonderbox and all high current AC wiring. You're converting several kilowatts of DC into many kilowatts of AC to drive the motors. I'm not saying that the Wonderbox is noisy, but all the same the function is unique to EVs and has the potential to be a major source of EMI if not managed properly.

I hadn't forgotten; I spent my career designing power electronics and mixed signal systems for devices that needed to meet worldwide EMI regs.

The Wunderbox does not contain the drive unit inverters - those are on the motors themselves to minimize wiring, losses, and EMI.
It is basically a 19.2kW bidirectional AC-DC converter to allow level 2 battery charge and discharge, along with some other DC-DC converters used for vehicle HVAC and other systems.

 

[fpmacko]

Well then, I stand corrected. I guess this old RF comms boffin should stick to his knitting.

 

[DeaneG]

Well then, I stand corrected. I guess this old RF comms boffin should stick to his knitting.

You may well be right to wonder. I'd be interested in the ham result too.

 

[fpmacko]

Doh! I just remembered that I have an Anritsu portable SpecA. It's good for 100 kHz to 3 GHz. Does anyone have a suggestion on where to scan? I'll just drive around with the car under different power output conditions and see what I can see. No, I won't do a launch.

 

[DeaneG]

Doh! I just remembered that I have an Anritsu portable SpecA. It's good for 100 kHz to 3 GHz. Does anyone have a suggestion on where to scan? I'll just drive around with the car under different power output conditions and see what I can see. No, I won't do a launch.

Ideally, I suppose, where you'd want to mount the ham antenna. Otherwise, around the LCD screens, around the glovebox (to see what the infotainment CPU PCB is doing), in the rear of the frunk well (front motor and Wunderbox), and rear of the trunk (rear motor).

 

[johnse]

For many years (maybe still?) Teslas did not have AM radio because the motor systems were too noisy and IIRC Mask claimed there was no way to solve it. I take this claim with a grain of salt. Lucid's have AM/FM HD radio. I don't have mine yet, but others can likely report if AM radio is usable.

I suspect if AM is useable, your radios should be OK as well. Also in addition to the police interest in Lucid, many police departments have Teslas in their fleets.

Funny EMI story: I worked at Ampex for a time around 1984. Ampex Digital Optics (ADO 1000) was the leading edge of video special effects. It treated live video as a plane in 3D space allowing it to be transformed. internally it used a 13.5Mhz clock. The single channel version had A/D conversion, digital manipulation, and D/A conversion all in one rack-mount unit that cost north of $100k in 1984 dollars. As far as EMI was concerned, the digital signal were well contained.

But they wanted to combine multiple channels into a single image with 3D interactions. This required cable connection of 13.5Mhz parallel digital data from the digital output stage to the Combiner box. They did their normal EMI testing and all was well.

Square waves, such as the digital clock signal, contain every odd harmonic n, at an amplitude of 1/n. Someone noticed that the 9th harmonic of 13.5Mhz is 121.5 Mhz--the VHF Emergency band. Interference in that band would be extremely bad, so they had to go through another round of testing just to confirm that band was not impacted (It wasn't, Ampex had some really good engineers).

 

[OCDC]

My (very simplified) rules of thumb for these are:

100kHz-10MHz - chopping frequencies for the current modulations and a few of their harmonics (base frequency can be lower than 100kHz or variable frequency, depending on topology and EMI/efficiency constraints)

10MHz-300MHz - FET drivers and the t-rise/t-fall times of the FETs themselves plus some harmonics (quick sampling of the Wolfspeed SiC FET catalog has their t-rise times of 28-67nS, t-fall times of 13-37nS)

These are my personal guidelines when looking at power supplies. Shielding, slew-rate controls and filtering will have a big impact on how much noise leaks out. YMMV.

 

[fpmacko]

Ideally, I suppose, where you'd want to mount the ham antenna. Otherwise, around the LCD screens, around the glovebox (to see what the infotainment CPU PCB is doing), in the rear of the frunk well (front motor and Wunderbox), and rear of the trunk (rear motor).

I was thinking in terms of the range of freqs. But these are still useful suggestions. If we need to scan lower than 100 kHz I can force the Anritsu to do that. It'll just be operating below the specified min freq. If need be, I have a couple of other SpecAs that'll go down to 9 kHz, but I'll have to use a mobile inverter, which might have it's own noise.

 

[fpmacko]

For many years (maybe still?) Teslas did not have AM radio because the motor systems were too noisy and IIRC Mask claimed there was no way to solve it. I take this claim with a grain of salt. Lucid's have AM/FM HD radio. I don't have mine yet, but others can likely report if AM radio is usable.

I suspect if AM is useable, your radios should be OK as well. Also in addition to the police interest in Lucid, many police departments have Teslas in their fleets.

Funny EMI story: I worked at Ampex for a time around 1984. Ampex Digital Optics (ADO 1000) was the leading edge of video special effects. It treated live video as a plane in 3D space allowing it to be transformed. internally it used a 13.5Mhz clock. The single channel version had A/D conversion, digital manipulation, and D/A conversion all in one rack-mount unit that cost north of $100k in 1984 dollars. As far as EMI was concerned, the digital signal were well contained.

But they wanted to combine multiple channels into a single image with 3D interactions. This required cable connection of 13.5Mhz parallel digital data from the digital output stage to the Combiner box. They did their normal EMI testing and all was well.

Square waves, such as the digital clock signal, contain every odd harmonic n, at an amplitude of 1/n. Someone noticed that the 9th harmonic of 13.5Mhz is 121.5 Mhz--the VHF Emergency band. Interference in that band would be extremely bad, so they had to go through another round of testing just to confirm that band was not impacted (It wasn't, Ampex had some really good engineers).

Interesting story. Yeah, as a pilot I can understand why you'd want to tiptoe carefully around 121.5. 243 also.

 

[fpmacko]

My (very simplified) rules of thumb for these are:

100kHz-10MHz - chopping frequencies for the current modulations and a few of their harmonics (base frequency can be lower than 100kHz or variable frequency, depending on topology and EMI/efficiency constraints)

10MHz-300MHz - FET drivers and the t-rise/t-fall times of the FETs themselves plus some harmonics (quick sampling of the Wolfspeed SiC FET catalog has their t-rise times of 28-67nS, t-fall times of 13-37nS)

These are my personal guidelines when looking at power supplies. Shielding, slew-rate controls and filtering will have a big impact on how much noise leaks out. YMMV.

Tnx. Looks like I might have to scan DC to Daylight.

 

[fpmacko]

Interesting story. Yeah, as a pilot I can understand why you'd want to tiptoe carefully around 121.5. 243 also.

Oops. That was in response to OCDC. Doh!

 

[DoctorZ]

Lucid Airs have already auditioned for police duty:

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/how-good-does-lucid-air-police-cruiser-look-steel-wheels

I'd be surprised if there were any RF interference issues that an internal combustion car doesn't also have, from its infotainment CPU and screen(s).

Most public safety has moved to the 900 MHz digital spectrum, so won't have much problem with RF from the A/C inverters. I was thinking more about the smaller PD departments that are still operating in the 20-Meter band.

 

[DoctorZ]

I have a 2025 AT (love the car!) that I'm planning to equip with a Yaesu FTM-500. In the meantime, I've used my HT in the car with the windows down a couple of times. (It's a Faraday cage with the windows up due to the metallic tint.) It's a weak link to the repeater but I've never noticed any RF noise from the car either in-motion or while stopped. So, I think I'll be ok.

Now, having said that, being stuck using an HT with the windows down is not a permanent solution. Mag mounts are a nonstarter because the car is aluminum (and mine has the glass canopy). Lip mounts are also off the table because there's no useful gap around the trunk lid. So, after a lot of measuring and re-measuring I've converged on the Diamond NR770HRKS mount+whip (2m and 70cm). I plan to mount it (it has an adhesive pad) on the C-pillar immediately above the Air logo. The whip is 40.2 inches long and, if I allow some space for the height of the mount it looks like it'll just barely fit below the rubber coaming around the garage door. It ships with RG-316 coax so I'm pretty sure it'll fit through a tiny gap at the corner of the trunk lid. I should have the antenna later this week, so I'll see if it works out and can let you know.

I'll power the radio TR unit from the12 VDC accessory outlet inside the cubby on the RH side of the trunk. It's rated for 15A. The radio draws 10A in transmit. It'll be easy to run ethernet to the console. I have a cupholder mount for the remote head.

I'll let you know how it goes.

73.....Frank / WA3NHK

First off I'd never get one with a glass roof--no protection from lightning. The aluminum roof is great though. It would make for an excellent ground plane. What I cannot understand is why you wouldn't just install a roof mount with a fold-down antenna on it?

 

[DoctorZ]

For many years (maybe still?) Teslas did not have AM radio because the motor systems were too noisy and IIRC Mask claimed there was no way to solve it. I take this claim with a grain of salt. Lucid's have AM/FM HD radio. I don't have mine yet, but others can likely report if AM radio is usable.

I suspect if AM is useable, your radios should be OK as well. Also in addition to the police interest in Lucid, many police departments have Teslas in their fleets.

Funny EMI story: I worked at Ampex for a time around 1984. Ampex Digital Optics (ADO 1000) was the leading edge of video special effects. It treated live video as a plane in 3D space allowing it to be transformed. internally it used a 13.5Mhz clock. The single channel version had A/D conversion, digital manipulation, and D/A conversion all in one rack-mount unit that cost north of $100k in 1984 dollars. As far as EMI was concerned, the digital signal were well contained.

But they wanted to combine multiple channels into a single image with 3D interactions. This required cable connection of 13.5Mhz parallel digital data from the digital output stage to the Combiner box. They did their normal EMI testing and all was well.

Square waves, such as the digital clock signal, contain every odd harmonic n, at an amplitude of 1/n. Someone noticed that the 9th harmonic of 13.5Mhz is 121.5 Mhz--the VHF Emergency band. Interference in that band would be extremely bad, so they had to go through another round of testing just to confirm that band was not impacted (It wasn't, Ampex had some really good engineers).

I have read many complaints that the AM/FM HD radios are unreliable in the Lucid. I suspect this is probably the result of all the filtering and shielding Lucid has tried to make them work in spite of all the RFI coming off the motors. However, I found a YouTube video where an electrionics expert offers a CHEAP solution. A lot of this video's tech is over my head, but I do understand the simple solution she suggests, and I wonder why Lucid has not looked in to it? Save AM radios in EV's Cheaply

 

[scal_air]

Eventually it appears as if we're all going to have to buy an EV. With that said, I'm not interested in anything other than a Lucid! However, as a Storm Chaser/SkyWarn Certified Severe Weather Spotter, and a licensed Ham Radio Operator, I need to know if my equipment will work in the vehicle? I've heard all the talk about RF interference EV motors put out. I assume this problem will have to be resolved eventually as sooner or later Police cars will be EV and they have to have two-way radio communications in them. So is anyone out there a Ham Radio Operator and successfully made it work WELL in their Lucid?

After reading many replies, I'm just astounded at the level of expertise from members of the forum. This really is a great place to get questions answered.

I do have a question for you @DoctorZ - Did you consider the Gravity for your needs? If so, what made you decide on the Air? Thx

 

[DoctorZ]

After reading many replies, I'm just astounded at the level of expertise from members of the forum. This really is a great place to get questions answered.

I do have a question for you @DoctorZ - Did you consider the Gravity for your needs? If so, what made you decide on the Air? Thx

I can give you three reasons off the bat for my decision:
1. About $30,000 price difference
2. It's UGLY
3. It doesn't appear to have a metal roof.

The metal roof has been the biggest obstacle against an EV for me because they're NOT safe in lightning storms, and they make it almost impossible to install aftermarket radio antennas. Now you may say, well other EV's have metal roofs, yes, but they don't go from 0-60 MPH in 3.6 seconds; or look like the Star Ship Enterprise on the inside. I want futuristic, storm safe, and FAST at an affordable price.

On my YouTube channel you will find a video of the COOLEST car that's ever been made, and the Lucid comes the closest to it's design: Coolest Car Ever Made!