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US carmakers should be terrified, including Lucid

It sure would be nice if there was a moderator that would step in and limit the discord to the vehicles. Politics should have no place in these forums.
 
dbsb3233 said:
You certainly *can* do it (and they do), but it doesn't stop it from being highly hypocritical.

The "why" is irrelevant. It's the same reason anyone does it - to make $billions. They're an oil-blessed country and it makes them rich. I'd do it too. And we (the US) does it too (although we just happen to use most of ours rather than sell most of it to others).

It's the dissing of it and effectively forcing your own people not to use it while happily selling tons of it to everyone else that makes it hypocritical.
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It's not being hypocritical. It's about thinking in the long term with people's material living conditions in mind. Playing the purity olympics isn't helping anyone. The priority should be getting the job done and improving material living conditions.

Let's take Lucid as an example. They emphasize environmental sustainability. Each vehicle is made of steel, aluminum, lithium, plastic composites, etc. All of those are carbon intensive processes. Is it "hypocritical" of Lucid for them to say they're focused on sustainability and humanity's well-being if they're using carbon-intensive materials? Is it "hypocritical" of Lucid to say they're focused on the environment if the Saudi PIF is their biggest supporter? Should they have never existed then?
 
Need4Sleep said:
It's not being hypocritical. It's about thinking in the long term with people's material living conditions in mind. Playing the purity olympics isn't helping anyone. The priority should be getting the job done and improving material living conditions.

Let's take Lucid as an example. They emphasize environmental sustainability. Each vehicle is made of steel, aluminum, lithium, plastic composites, etc. All of those are carbon intensive processes. Is it "hypocritical" of Lucid for them to say they're focused on sustainability and humanity's well-being if they're using carbon-intensive materials? Is it "hypocritical" of Lucid to say they're focused on the environment if the Saudi PIF is their biggest supporter? Should they have never existed then?
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Except those aren't at all the same thing. Norway doesn't have to remain one of the world's bigger oil extractors. They choose to. There's plenty of other industries to support the country. Meanwhile Lucid has no choice but to use steel, aluminum, etc in order to make cars. There's no other practical way. It's a requirement for their existence as an automaker.

Again, I have absolutely no problem with Norway extracting oil and making $billions in revenue from it. It's just hypocritical to then dis it and effectively prevent your own people from using it because it's "bad". It's like telling your kids not to do drugs while running a drug cartel. 😄
 
Is it hypocritical for Saudi Arabia to own most of an American EV company? Should they invest in Dino car companies only?
 
scal_air said:
Is it hypocritical for Saudi Arabia to own most of an American EV company? Should they invest in Dino car companies only?
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I don't see them dissing EVs and passing policy to effectively force people to not buy them. So, no.

But if they did, like Norway does to gas vehicles, then yes.
 
Dobuses1 said:
It sure would be nice if there was a moderator that would step in and limit the discord to the vehicles. Politics should have no place in these forums.
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The forum does limit political rhetoric because it tends to end in incivility. However, the topic of this discussion, how the Chinese are dominating the EV market, can't be approached without the context of the current political climate. That seems to be fair, especially when stating facts such as EV support has been severely curtailed compared to the previous administration.
 
RajD said:
Lucid has a chance to create a dominant midsize SUV in the US if they price it correctly.
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And the floor price will be determined by how much they can get their costs down. That's true for all EVs, and all products. You can't sell it for below cost and be successful. That would just mean losing even MORE money.

We often say "price" but what matters more is cost. If they can make it for $40k so they can sell it for $50k, then it could be really successful. But making it for just $40k is a huge challenge.
 
hmp10 said:
Today the Lee County Health Department confirmed there are now 11 confirmed cases of measles at Ave Maria University(an anti-vaxxer hotbed with around 1,400 students), with 3 hospitalizations and 24 more people awaiting test results.

Just sayin' . . . .
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Science doesn't give a crap what anyone believes (..after taking in "news" from social media and well funded disinformation mills)

When the background vaccination rate in a community drops from 95 to 92 percent, measles will spread. Yes, it's that contagious!!
 
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Dobuses1 said:
It sure would be nice if there was a moderator that would step in and limit the discord to the vehicles. Politics should have no place in these forums.
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Good friggin' luck separating EV innovation and competitive development from political policymaking!

I agree with @scal_air that these stated facts are more appropriate here than opinions, mine included.
 
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dbsb3233 said:
I don't see them dissing EVs and passing policy to effectively force people to not buy them. So, no.

But if they did, like Norway does to gas vehicles, then yes.
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Is it hypocritical to be against the murder of American journalists and still do business with the government of Saudi Arabia?

Where do you draw the line?
 
dbsb3233 said:
And the floor price will be determined by how much they can get their costs down. That's true for all EVs, and all products. You can't sell it for below cost and be successful. That would just mean losing even MORE money.

We often say "price" but what matters more is cost. If they can make it for $40k so they can sell it for $50k, then it could be really successful. But making it for just $40k is a huge challenge.
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Exactly. Which is all the more the reason why I'm welcoming the incoming Chinese EVs to the Canadian market. (It also helps that Canada is eyeing joint ventures with the Chinese EV companies to manufacture vehicles to the global market). I personally believe that the current incumbent US and European car manufacturers have gotten too complacent. I also believe that Lucid, Rivian, and Chinese EVs have what it takes to force competition to exist once again.

Whether that competition is based on cost (i.e. Chinese EVs) or legitimate technical excellence (i.e. Lucid and Rivian), when deliberate competition exists, everyone benefits
 
Leftlane said:
Is it hypocritical to be against the murder of American journalists and still do business with the government of Saudi Arabia?

Where do you draw the line?
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Hypocritical isn't the right term for that because they're 2 unrelated issues (unlike Norway's contradictory policies on oil), but I would call it a complicated relationship. Always has been between the US and Saudi Arabia.

As is our relationship with China. We're still doing business with them despite plenty of reasons not to.
 
Need4Sleep said:
Exactly. Which is all the more the reason why I'm welcoming the incoming Chinese EVs to the Canadian market. (It also helps that Canada is eyeing joint ventures with the Chinese EV companies to manufacture vehicles to the global market). I personally believe that the current incumbent US and European car manufacturers have gotten too complacent. I also believe that Lucid, Rivian, and Chinese EVs have what it takes to force competition to exist once again.

Whether that competition is based on cost (i.e. Chinese EVs) or legitimate technical excellence (i.e. Lucid and Rivian), when deliberate competition exists, everyone benefits
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The only caveat I'd add to that is I don't think we really know the true cost of building Chinese EVs. It's hard to tell whether they're really making em for a sustainable $40k, or whether they're making em for $60k and getting $20k of hidden subsidy.
 
Leftlane said:
Is it hypocritical to be against the murder of American journalists and still do business with the government of Saudi Arabia?

Where do you draw the line?
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Are the ppl that followed Saudi leadership orders to shred a journalist the same ppl that are reaching headlong into the new EV tech (to foster alternatives divergent from a strict oil economy)? Perhaps not.
You can't make a country so small in your mind that all its ppl become one entity. That's kind of ignorant. Is it ok to buy a country's products and services when the leader is sicking the military and paramilitary goon squads on the citizenry? Americans certainly need to think about that. Where might Europeans or Canadians draw that line?
Are you for Nvidia chip tech advancements and against shooting American citizens without due process??

..That line turns grey quickly.
 
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Leftlane said:
Is it hypocritical to be against the murder of American journalists and still do business with the government of Saudi Arabia?

Where do you draw the line?
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Or is it hypocritical if you buy iphones made in China ( Tinnamen square) ? Or products from India made or transported by Russian oil? Or don't use Uber or play EA games or watch any sports events telivised from the Middle East. This is not how the world works.

You could argue the Japanese should not buy a single product or service from America. Many more examples.
 
That’s my point - and yes, the leaders who ordered Khashoggi’s murder are the same ones who direct the PIF money. You can’t excuse it when convenient for you and then call out others when you disagree. That’s why I asked where the line is.
 
Leftlane said:
That’s my point - and yes, the leaders who ordered Khashoggi’s murder are the same ones who direct the PIF money. You can’t excuse it when convenient for you and then call out others when you disagree. That’s why I asked where the line is.
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So… are you saying that the Chinese government or Indian government do not have government sanctioned murders? India is in the spotlight for the same offense - committed in Canada - recently (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/wo...ada-and-india-expelling-each-others-diplomats). Are we not still using tons of products from both of those governments?

This is not new. And politics and business will frequently be at odds with our morals and ethics. It has not stopped capitalism. And I don’t expect it ever will.
 
You aren’t getting my point - the hypocrisy is calling out someone else (Norway in this instance) while being guilty of giving support to various other governments through our purchases. Either get over what one country is doing and giving every other country a pass, or boycott them all.

Right now even the US govt has sanctioned murder, both within our borders and outside. Uh oh - now what?
 
Can we please stick with EV discussions? Things are starting to get off topic.

The NIO ET9 fully active electrical suspension seems incredible - I’m imagining ultra smooth rides on our bumpy highways! I wonder what the Lucid engineers think of that.
 
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